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Old 2008-06-27, 19:46   Link #2001
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Haa... that'd be a bit unfair, wouldn't it? That way, Hayate would be closer to a Mary Sue than a believable character. Everyone's got to have some sort of weakness...
I do remember Dizzy from Guilty Gear being turned into a Mary Sue in a big Street fighter x King of Fighters x Garou 4 x Guilty Gear crossover.

Orochi wanted her as his wife for some reason. And while Justice, resurrected and upgraded by NESTS Cartel, were slaughtering the whole Street fighter cast with the dark god, she was hiding in closet, wtf.

And she saves the day after having... gasp... awakened her Orochi blood. Oh right, there were Nakoruru, supposedly to be related to Orochi too.

(Orochi has become a running joke in KoF fandom as an excuse to explain why x or y KoF Sue is here).

EDIT: Oh, and the author has an unhealthy fascination for kimonos. Dizzy always seems to be wearing one at one point of his stories. Not to mention..... "Dizzy-chan ^_^"

EDIT 2: I have found the MSTs of two of this guy's Dizzy fic

http://www.angelfire.com/ne/Edgey/Gu.../Msting032.txt

http://www.angelfire.com/ne/Edgey/Gu.../Msting033.txt

Laugh and be horrified

Spoiler for Page claimed for Oujo-sama:
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Last edited by Sheba; 2008-06-27 at 20:26.
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Old 2008-06-27, 20:00   Link #2002
Comartemis
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That's a completely different case. There is canon evidence that Hayate does--or at least should--have at least passable melee skills since she's copied the spells of Nanoha, Fate, and the Wolkenritter as well as countless other mages the Wolks drained during their rampage in A's. All she has to do to round herself out is take some basic training with Signum or Vita every now and then to get the basics of actual melee combat down and her spell list--assuming she's practicing with a well-rounded spell list like she most likely will be in Comacanon--should go a great distance to doing the rest.

But Dizzy having Orochi blood? Oh come on, that's just lame, not to mention patently ridiculous.
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Old 2008-06-27, 20:45   Link #2003
stormturmoil
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The trouble is, the nature of melee fighting means there is no such thing as merely 'passable' - you're either an expert or you're dead.

and Hayate's no expert. Power is meaningless in a melee against any opponent of real skill - they'll simply use their skills to turn it against you...of course, the reverse can also be true...

hence why David, even under his limit Breaker: Catalyst, with every enhancement imaginable boosted to the very bleeding edge of what's humanly survivable, Cannot beat Signum or Fate in a melee fight - his power is worthless against someone who's skill simply let's them turn it back against itself...

I strongly suspect the same would also be true of Hayate, suggesting that she either uses her power to let her survive just long enough to open up some range and cut loose, or can spam some kind of area of effect attack centered on herself that can blow away enemies (for SRW fans, think Cybuster's Cyflash)
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Old 2008-06-27, 20:50   Link #2004
Sheba
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Hayate could be able to pull moves like Anubis' "Zero Shift" to escape from melee powerhouses or pixies (lol Marvel vs Capcom 2 lingo!) and get back to her favored range. Powers based on manipulation of space are not against canon, arent they?
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Old 2008-06-27, 20:55   Link #2005
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
*prods Kha from Frostwolf*
*prods Eva back from Crushridge*

Come on, I need more 70s for OCST in order to look vaguely like a raiding guild in future! My pally and soon to be PT'd rogue is not enough! And LE is another pally! Need Hunter to MD boss to me until Blizz decide to give me a goddamn Taunt!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
...

Spoiler for Exempt from episode 18:


...

Gah! Crack! Go away! I don't even know a thing about Touhou, why is this crack assaulting me!?
You moved within 12" of a Khrack Squad, allowing them to Assault you.

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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
YOSH!!! FINALLY!!!

Chapter 12 of Riot Force 6 is now for your reading pleasure, with pure unadulterated grammar errors and no revisions XD

Spoiler for MGLN Riot Force 6:


P.S. Chapter XIII Gundober and Kabuto
Ah a mostly focused on description chappie. Now all those questions come into perspective, Would've been perfect except for one thing...

*throws Avenger's Shield at Eva, then follows with Judgement of Vengeance, Holy Shock and Crusader Strike*

Burn the Errant Grammar, Kill the Typodaemon, Purge the Pointlessly-Inserted-Fanservice!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
That's a completely different case. There is canon evidence that Hayate does--or at least should--have at least passable melee skills since she's copied the spells of Nanoha, Fate, and the Wolkenritter as well as countless other mages the Wolks drained during their rampage in A's. All she has to do to round herself out is take some basic training with Signum or Vita every now and then to get the basics of actual melee combat down and her spell list--assuming she's practicing with a well-rounded spell list like she most likely will be in Comacanon--should go a great distance to doing the rest.
Er... Book got deleted/reformatted, so Hayate had to start afresh... Is this changed in your work?
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Old 2008-06-27, 20:59   Link #2006
Wild Goose
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Regarding Hayate having awesome melee:

Yes, she is a Mage-Knight. However, note that she is the only Belkan mage to specialise in bombardments. Her role and purpose is that of long-range artillery. IMO, and this has been discussed more than once, instead of trying to get her to level up her melee faster - and let's not forget that she was bedridded and paralysed for much of her childhood and has been stated to be physically weaker than the rest of the cast (also, note her stunted height) - what we should be doing is playing to her strenghts. Melee users are great at close range, right?

She's got magic. Light the afterburners and dodge - she's flying in the sky, afterall.

Hayate has all sorts of options for dealing with melee users. Trips. Binds. Long-range fire. I agree that she will need some melee, but IMO that'd be more for blocks and getting out of an opponent's reach, just enough to let her disengage and run back to range.

To use a somewhat reaching analogy, in this case, rather than thinking of Hayate as a bomber, I'm thinking of her as an F-14. The Tomcat is badass, win, and pwnage, but it is not as manuverable at close range and low speed compared to the F-16 or MiG-29 or Su-27. What Tomcat pilots do is they train to shake the enemy pilot, disengage, light burners and get the reach for a missile shot, at a range where they'll do better; you can dogfight a Tomcat, but Tomcat jockeys will always attempt to open up the range where it favors them. (Especially since Tomcats - even the D never upgraded to the AIM-120 AMRAAM and were stuck with the AIM-7 Sparrow.)

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Ah, one of the details I haven't mentioned; Iris is a Knight of the Saint Church, representing the interests of Carim and company. She has a fairly high level in the command structure, to the point where she reports directly to Carim every so often. Usually she's involved in the recovery of Lost Logia that are of interest to the Church, such as holy relics and demonic artifacts (what exactly demons are in Comacanon still needs to be resolved) in need of disposal or sealing. For this series, she's involved in the Relic case at Carim's request under Hayate's command, so between her and Carim, it's not all that unlikely that a cadre of Church Knights will get involved in the HQ attack.
Just say that she's part of Carim's security detail then That's her official cover as to why she's there.

Quote:
As for the fliers, considering that the battle was fairly high-altitude most of the way through, I'd say that that's the domain of the Air Forces, not the ground forces.
Nope, you can see they're wearing a colored patch somewhere; that's the marker for GF air fliers.

Besides, if they were AF, they wouldn't have accepted Hayate's battle management.

Quote:
You wouldn't mind if I borrow the OFM then, would you Goose? I'd need your help writing Ivanovich and the rest unless they only make a token background appearance, since I'm pretty sure I couldn't do Johnson's badassness the proper justice it deserves.
Sure, no problem. Lemme know what you need.

And the OFM aren't useless without their guns; they may be mostly B-ranks, but they've got skills and experience, and a good number of combat vets who cut their teeth on killing other mages. Check the Liberation of Belzac.
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:12   Link #2007
Comartemis
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Quote:
Er... Book got deleted/reformatted, so Hayate had to start afresh... Is this changed in your work?
No, but how much of Reinforce Ein's data was incorporated into Zwei? This is more or less an open book, and for Comacanon I'm making the call that a hefty chunk of the spell data Hayate pulled from the Book stuck around in Reinforce and was salvaged by Zwei. Thus, Hayate has an impressive and well-rounded spell list (fuck, spell library) even if she's lost all the spells gained from the random grunts.

Quote:
Hayate could be able to pull moves like Anubis' "Zero Shift" to escape from melee powerhouses or pixies (lol Marvel vs Capcom 2 lingo!) and get back to her favored range. Powers based on manipulation of space are not against canon, arent they?
*Gasp!*

Another ZoE fan! No, I'm pretty sure there's a rule against OCs having spatial/temporal manipulation abilities, but there's no rule against canon characters gaining such things! Zero Shift is an awesome idea for a step beyond Flash Move, Sheba, thank you for reminding me of it! Too bad Hayate already has Ragnarok or I could give her the Vector Cannon too...

*EDIT*
And no, to my knowledge there's nothing against it in canon.
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:20   Link #2008
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
*Gasp!*

Another ZoE fan! No, I'm pretty sure there's a rule against OCs having spatial/temporal manipulation abilities, but there's no rule against canon characters gaining such things! Zero Shift is an awesome idea for a step beyond Flash Move, Sheba, thank you for reminding me of it! Too bad Hayate already has Ragnarok or I could give her the Vector Cannon too...

*EDIT*
And no, to my knowledge there's nothing against it in canon.
I generally am not keen on spatial/temporal manipulation; what's wrong with giving Hayate a faster charging longer lasting Flash Move?

KISS principle, Comar. This IMO is why lots of Kha's stuff gets derailed and drags even him down: it becomes too complicated to keep track of.

Also, it's easier to justify than spatial/tempral manipulation. The M1911A1 is still used today, almost 100 years after it was designed. Revolver pistols are still used today. Bolt-action rifles will never fade away. Simpler things tend to last longer. ;D
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:22   Link #2009
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I'd agree, except we already know that Hayate can do spatial manipulation: Diabolic Emission is explicitly referred to as a spatial attack.
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:35   Link #2010
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Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that.

*considers*

Still, let's be honest here, people, outside of plot, just what are melee-user chances of sneaking up on Hayate? She's a flier. So long as she stays in the air she can see them coming at her and take steps to evade.
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:43   Link #2011
Comartemis
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I generally am not keen on spatial/temporal manipulation; what's wrong with giving Hayate a faster charging longer lasting Flash Move?
That's essentially what Zero Shift is, at least in Zone of the Enders II; it simply shrinks the distance between the subject and the target point to zero, allowing for mind-numbingly fast speed over long distances and the illusion of outright teleportation at short distances.

*EDIT*
...sorry, brain fart. No, it's not longer lasting nor faster charging, it's just mind-numbingly fast, even by Flash Move standards.
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Old 2008-06-27, 21:47   Link #2012
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I'd say it's actually a non issue regarding the melee skill issue.

anyone skilled enough to sneak up on Hayate is almost certainly going to be skilled enough to kill ANYONE you put in that situation, regardless of who it is or what they know.

it's the opportunists that are the real issue here. And that relies on opportunity. So the best protection is to minimise the opportunities, and if they do occur, concentrate on ways to make them squander the opportunity, knowing they likely won't get another.

Anyone can get fluked once. Nothing anyone can do about that. But you can keep it from happening again in the same way.
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Old 2008-06-27, 22:00   Link #2013
JINNSK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
*prods Eva back from Crushridge*

Er... Book got deleted/reformatted, so Hayate had to start afresh... Is this changed in your work?
According to リリカルSympathy(This interview explains about Hayate),Hayate seems to be able to use most magic spells that Reinforce I owned.



(But her magic takes time.so I think she is not suitable to close range battle)

Spoiler for omake:
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Old 2008-06-27, 22:06   Link #2014
Comartemis
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That explains why she can use Diabolic Emission; she did inherit it from Rein Eins. And the bit about her magic "taking time" doesn't apply to Comacanon beyond standard charging times due to the de-shafting protocols.

Also for anyone who's interested, I just started my own blog.
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Old 2008-06-27, 23:27   Link #2015
Kha
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And I hereby reiterate my stand about my in-depth codices; it's just the old me with all those theories speaking.

@JINNSK: I see... Wow that's a lot of skills she has access to, including those that the Wolkies absorbed without Hayate's knowledge! Can you imagine the possibilities?! I won't be surprised if Hayate keeps pulling out spells no one has witnessed before, cloned from other magical schools!

*cackles*
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Old 2008-06-27, 23:38   Link #2016
krisslanza
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Looks like Keroko has fallen to Touhou...

I'm plotting crack. No estimated time as I'm feeling worse and worse with each passing day at work...
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Old 2008-06-27, 23:50   Link #2017
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Ah, that explains why I'm having problems with it. I haven't understood the appeal of the Touhou series and still don't, really.

Anyways, I'm planning on turning Cinque into one of the good guys post-StrikerS and giving her the good fortune of having a linker core so she can function at a basic level in a magical society. She's still going to be something of a Badass Normal when compared to the other characters, but I'm wondering what the resident theories on the natures of the ISs are. I know this has been discussed on IRC, but can we get a list of all suggested possibilities together?
Actually, wasn't all the bases of the Numbers mages? Since I seemed to recall that they are all created using artificial mages technology and thus wouldn't that mean they have linker cores?

As for the IS theories... current personal theory of mine is that they are not very different from rare skills except the latter uses mana for power and the former uses that unnamed power source that isn't magic and additional equipment designed to work with it. Sort of like the difference between Familiars and Guardian beasts.
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Looks like Keroko has fallen to Touhou...

I'm plotting crack. No estimated time as I'm feeling worse and worse with each passing day at work...
No offense kriss but with your creation speed I think Kha's rebuilds will have been completed and we'll all be on the 3rd incarnation of the OC thread.

Edit: You're sick? Sorry.
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Old 2008-06-28, 00:07   Link #2018
Comartemis
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Actually, wasn't all the bases of the Numbers mages? Since I seemed to recall that they are all created using artificial mages technology and thus wouldn't that mean they have linker cores?
I thought the general consensus was that the cyborgs didn't have linker cores? Or am I just talking to TK too much?

Quote:
As for the IS theories... current personal theory of mine is that they are not very different from rare skills except the latter uses mana for power and the former uses that unnamed power source that isn't magic and additional equipment designed to work with it. Sort of like the difference between Familiars and Guardian beasts.
That's what I figured as well. I actually have a post-StrikerS plan of having Original Jail upgrade the surviving Numbers (Uno through Quattro) by using the captured relics as power sources for their cybernetic enhancements, allowing him to make extensive upgrades to their equipment and capabilities and putting the cyborgs on par with the Aces, since they've all effectively turned into Artificial Relic Weapons.
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Old 2008-06-28, 02:25   Link #2019
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If you did that, I'd have to ask why hadn't he done that earlier?
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Old 2008-06-28, 03:24   Link #2020
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Who knows, Jail's probably just full of himself, or the Relics are too valuable/rare or something that wouldn't warrant doing that outside of 'emergencies'.



Anywho, I just figured out a rather funny way to have Crash gain a healthy respect (fear) he needs of Vita so that he can get all jittery in later scenes.

Spoiler for Don't be fooled by outward appearances:
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