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Old 2008-06-26, 16:42   Link #1601
X207
Gamyūsa
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montreal
i have a question, while i was searching around the net i found this site: http://japanese.about.com/od/japanes...rtLearning.htm. is ti accurate to attempt to learn japanese?
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Old 2008-06-27, 02:39   Link #1602
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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It's accurate enough, i've bookmarked it, just to use as a reminder guide for all the grammar forms i learnt back in beginners class.
"the more you learn, the more you forget"

- it doesn't explain the rules of conjunction much (well i was looking at the expressing emotions side)
It's more examples and its meanings for different verb tenses - most are laid out in good order tho. There's lots to get through, so it's deinitely a good, varied but consise learning source to bookmark and refer to over time
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Old 2008-06-27, 11:11   Link #1603
X207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
It's accurate enough, i've bookmarked it, just to use as a reminder guide for all the grammar forms i learnt back in beginners class.
"the more you learn, the more you forget"

- it doesn't explain the rules of conjunction much (well i was looking at the expressing emotions side)
It's more examples and its meanings for different verb tenses - most are laid out in good order tho. There's lots to get through, so it's deinitely a good, varied but consise learning source to bookmark and refer to over time
ty, ive gotten the hang a bit writing hiragana though lots of practie writing would be good. ill probably start learning the characters and meaning 1st then later on get some vocab. though theres one question that bothers me. since they write from top to bottom, how do you tell apart the difference between each word? is there some kind of spacing in between the words?

also do you start off with hiragana and katakana at the same time or focus on form at a time?
out of curiousity, is there a character chart for kanji and romanji floating around the net? i wouldn't mind bookmarking it for later use.
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Old 2008-06-28, 06:12   Link #1604
LiberLibri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
Are there any such "role models" in Japanese media, male and female, to recommend?
I think NHK is the best. It owns a research institute for Japanese language, and trains the broadcasters to achieve correct oral usage. Listen to the news and documentary programmes, and you will get used to what is thought to be modest Japanese.

Some may believe that people from Tokyo speak standard Japanese. Not so wrong, but strictly speaking, there is Tokyo dialect (like Cockney). My mother's lineage is indigenous of Tokyo, so she can hardly tell the distinction of "sh" and "h". Instead, she clearly distinguish "ng" (nasal g) from "g".

学校 [gakkou]
空が青い [sora nga aoi]

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-06-28 at 06:39.
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Old 2008-06-28, 14:59   Link #1605
bungmonkey
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I've got my hiragana and katakana memorized and a few kanji now. I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out when to use "wa" and "ga" now though. I've read a bunch about their use but I still can't quite grasp the concept. When I try to do them myself I still seem to be only 50/50. "Mo" isn't a problem.

Here's an example from http://www.guidetojapanese.org/adjectives_ex.html You are supposed to fill in "wa" and "ga" here and conjugate the adjectives. I'm ok on the adjective part.

ジム) アリス、今 は 忙しい?
アリス) ううん、  忙しくない 

Can someone point out why "wa" was used in the question instead of "ga"? Then:

アリス) 何 が 楽しい?
ボブ) ゲーム が 楽しい。

The same here except for "ga". Any pointers?

Last edited by bungmonkey; 2008-06-28 at 15:10.
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Old 2008-06-28, 23:01   Link #1606
X207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
I've got my hiragana and katakana memorized and a few kanji now. I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out when to use "wa" and "ga" now though. I've read a bunch about their use but I still can't quite grasp the concept. When I try to do them myself I still seem to be only 50/50. "Mo" isn't a problem.

Here's an example from http://www.guidetojapanese.org/adjectives_ex.html You are supposed to fill in "wa" and "ga" here and conjugate the adjectives. I'm ok on the adjective part.

ジム) アリス、今 は 忙しい?
アリス) ううん、  忙しくない 

Can someone point out why "wa" was used in the question instead of "ga"? Then:

アリス) 何 が 楽しい?
ボブ) ゲーム が 楽しい。

The same here except for "ga". Any pointers?
i like that site, though i dont have the patch or watever its called to display such figures. i did come across one b4 at jp initial d website but that popup doesnt occur now. does anyone know a place where i can get the patch to see the various janaese languages on windows xp?
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Old 2008-06-28, 23:02   Link #1607
LiberLibri
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Firstly, "ga" is a case maker which adds the subjective function to the preceding noun, whereas "wa" is a topic maker which demarcates the scope of statement. They can coexist within a sentence. For example,

象は鼻が長い。Zou wa hana ga nagai.
In the case of elephants, the noses are long.

Japanese sentences are mainly driven by the topics, and the subjects are often omitted. Topic (wa) usually has priority over subject (ga). If you clearly show the subject with "ga" without "wa", it can be interpreted as an emphasis.

太郎は学校へ行った。
(As for Tarou, he went to the school.)
Tarou went to the school.

太郎が学校へ行った。
It was Tarou who went to the school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
ジム) アリス、今 は 忙しい?
アリス) ううん、  忙しくない
 

"Now (ima)" is the main topic of the conversation. Jim asks Alice whether she is busy now; it does not matter whether she be busy or not yesterday or tomorrow. Therefore Jim uses "wa" after ima. "Ima ga" seems nonsense because time cannot be busy except in a metaphorical situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
アリス) 何 が 楽しい?
ボブ) ゲーム が 楽しい。
You may be confused, but "ga" has two major function. One is to make a subject, and the other is to make an accusative (target of the verb). Your example is the latter case. Alice asks Bob with what he is making fun. You can find this usage of "ga" mainly in evaluative sentences; like-dislike, possible-impossible, good-bad etc.

映画が観たい。(I'd) love to watch a movie.
英語ができる。(It) is possible (for me to speak) English.
食べ物がほしい。 (I) want something to eat.

You can also use topic maker "wa" in an evaluative context. But such usage is interpreted as an emphasis.

英語はできる。(It) is possible (for me to speak that, if you are talking about) English.
And this sentence implies that the speaker does not know other languages.

犬が好きだ⇔犬は好きだ。(But I hate other animals)
スシが食べたい⇔スシは食べたい (But I don't want anything else)
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Old 2008-06-29, 08:41   Link #1608
bungmonkey
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Thanks, that makes it a bit clearer. I've been making some sentences myself so if you could tell me if I'm doing things right that would be great. I mostly only used vocab that I didn't have to look up so they are pretty lame. I also have not really delved into the world of verbs yet.

Sousuke no tomodachi wa tanoshikunakatta. (Sousuke's friend was not fun; am I using "no" correctly?)

Watashi wa shizuka na kakkoii shoujo ga sukidatta. (I liked quiet and stylish girls; not sure if shoujo is a good word for girls but oh well. Also, if I changed it to Watashi ga ...., would it still make sense? From what I'm getting it will just change the meaning to "It is I who liked quiet and stylish girls", as if I was answering a question about who likes quiet and stylish girls.)

Neko wa taisetsu demo inu ga taisetsujanai. (The cat was important but the dog was not; do I need to separate the demo with a comma/new sentence? Am I right in putting "ga" after inu?)

Ookii sekai wa sugoikunai. (The big world is not incredible/wonderful)

Watashi wa shishi ga sukijanakatta demo ima sukida. (I used to not like meat but now I like it; do I need to put "ga" after ima? Separate the demo section? This is the most complicated sentence I tried so I probably did it wrong.)

Thanks for all of your help

Last edited by bungmonkey; 2008-06-29 at 09:06.
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Old 2008-06-29, 11:31   Link #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Sousuke no tomodachi wa tanoshikunakatta. (Sousuke's friend was not fun; am I using "no" correctly?)
Good. You used "no" in the proper way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Watashi wa shizuka na kakkoii shoujo ga sukidatta. (I liked quiet and stylish girls; not sure if shoujo is a good word for girls but oh well. Also, if I changed it to Watashi ga ...., would it still make sense? From what I'm getting it will just change the meaning to "It is I who liked quiet and stylish girls", as if I was answering a question about who likes quiet and stylish girls.)
Correct. There is a specific word to express feminine stylishness (凛々しい/ririshii), so try at the next time.
My answer to the question is: yes. When you are asked "who liked?", then you answer "watashi ga". But it is confusing to insert two "ga"s within one sentence, so you had better change the latter "ga" as accusative into "o"; watashi ga shoujo o suki datta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Neko wa taisetsu demo inu ga taisetsujanai. (The cat was important but the dog was not; do I need to separate the demo with a comma/new sentence? Am I right in putting "ga" after inu?)
Not bad. The "ga" after "inu" gives me a bit strange impression, though I completely understand what you say.

If you want to express the two statement flatly and equally (on one hand, the cat is important. on the other hand, the dog is not important), you should use "wa" for both. If you focus more on one than the other, write as following;

X ga A demo Y wa B
(Although X is A, Y is B; evaluative statement, and Y is the main point)

Punctuation depends on your intention. There is no obligatory rules. Usually commas are employed to request the reader to breath in there (mentally or physically). If you put a comma after "demo", it may imply you intend to make the contrast between the cat and the dog vivid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Ookii sekai wa sugoikunai. (The big world is not incredible/wonderful)
No problem except you forgot the past tense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Watashi wa shishi ga sukijanakatta demo ima sukida. (I used to not like meat but now I like it; do I need to put "ga" after ima? Separate the demo section? This is the most complicated sentence I tried so I probably did it wrong.)
Excellent. If you insert "wa" after "ima", it is perfect. You cannot rely on "ga" instead of "wa" in this case, because "now" is neither the subject or accusative; it defines purely the topic, showing that the statement is about now.
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Old 2008-06-29, 12:02   Link #1610
tripperazn
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What is the difference in usage for "hairu" and "iru"? (sorry, I don't have JP enabled on this computer)

They look the same when written in jisho-kei, 入 plus "ru". How do you know which one is being used?
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Old 2008-06-29, 13:05   Link #1611
Nagato
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From meikyou:
Iru is the archaic one. It's used more in a literature or idiom.
using iru in a normal conversation is a bit strange, I think.
I often find iru in very formal conversation though, like osore irimasu, etc.
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Old 2008-06-30, 06:32   Link #1612
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X207 View Post
ty, ive gotten the hang a bit writing hiragana though lots of practie writing would be good. ill probably start learning the characters and meaning 1st then later on get some vocab. though theres one question that bothers me. since they write from top to bottom, how do you tell apart the difference between each word? is there some kind of spacing in between the words?

also do you start off with hiragana and katakana at the same time or focus on form at a time?
out of curiousity, is there a character chart for kanji and romanji floating around the net? i wouldn't mind bookmarking it for later use.
Pardon my delay, haven't been here for a while, real life is being a demanding bitch at the moment
To answer your question:
Well i can only go by how I was taught at Uni from scratch.
They made us learn the entire hiragana alphabet in 3 weeks and then katakana in the following 3 weeks, so by 2 months, we were already learning how to read and write and using romaji to transcribe any characters we couldn't remember.
So get hiragana down first, then move onto katakana. By then you can pair the two for each phonetical sound to help with memorisation.

- character charts for kanji... they're around but they're huuuuuuge (i think they're from official ones they use in schools in japan from the first 1945 characters they need to learn)
I don't know of any personally, and technically before you get to kanji, you should be feeling confident with hiragana at the very least.
The reason why hiragana is important before you get to kanji is because to answer your question of "how do you tell words apart if they write top to bottom"
(the same can be asked even if they're writing left to right)
Basically, all kanji does is replace the first (or first few) hiragana with a chinese character and it's up to all of us to learn and memorise which hiragana is replaced for each vocab.
Example:
嬉しい 【うれしい】 (adj-i) (uk) happy; glad; pleasant; (P)

【うれしい】= all the hiragana which is u-re-shi-i
嬉しい = the kanji replaces the u-re
- So we teach ourselves that if we see that:
kanji (嬉) + shi-i = ureshii = happy.

That's how we begin to break them apart.
I'm only barely scratching the surface with this example, but don't worry too much; a lot of questions will answer themselves the more you memorise characters and find that suddenly you can read stuff.

All a matter of persistence and patience, so good luck. ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by X207 View Post
i like that site, though i dont have the patch or watever its called to display such figures. i did come across one b4 at jp initial d website but that popup doesnt occur now. does anyone know a place where i can get the patch to see the various janaese languages on windows xp?
Any files you need to add to be able to read or write japanese (using the IME input) are in here.
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Old 2008-06-30, 06:46   Link #1613
Mystique
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pardon the dp - was answering each question seperately, figured to make it easier than having one mass wall of text for two different peopele.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
What is the difference in usage for "hairu" and "iru"? (sorry, I don't have JP enabled on this computer)

They look the same when written in jisho-kei, 入 plus "ru". How do you know which one is being used?
入れる(いれる)[G2] put ~ into (transitive)
入る(はいる)[G1] to enter (instransitive)

I think slightly different than what tripperazn was asking, but you'd be able to tell which reading it is by the particle used before it and generally the context of the entire sentence.

As for 'iru', i ended up with this:
入る 【いる】 (v5r,vi) (See 気に入る) to get in; to go in; to come in; to flow into; to set; to set in; (P)

For the example 'ki ni iru' = to become concerned, it's just a case of memorising it together with the 'ki' kanji.
But on it's own, i've not seen it used, to be honest, iru tends to be written in hiragana typically for common usage.
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Old 2008-06-30, 08:48   Link #1614
X207
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Location: Montreal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Pardon my delay, haven't been here for a while, real life is being a demanding bitch at the moment
To answer your question:
Well i can only go by how I was taught at Uni from scratch.
They made us learn the entire hiragana alphabet in 3 weeks and then katakana in the following 3 weeks, so by 2 months, we were already learning how to read and write and using romaji to transcribe any characters we couldn't remember.
So get hiragana down first, then move onto katakana. By then you can pair the two for each phonetical sound to help with memorisation.

- character charts for kanji... they're around but they're huuuuuuge (i think they're from official ones they use in schools in japan from the first 1945 characters they need to learn)
I don't know of any personally, and technically before you get to kanji, you should be feeling confident with hiragana at the very least.
The reason why hiragana is important before you get to kanji is because to answer your question of "how do you tell words apart if they write top to bottom"
(the same can be asked even if they're writing left to right)
Basically, all kanji does is replace the first (or first few) hiragana with a chinese character and it's up to all of us to learn and memorise which hiragana is replaced for each vocab.
Example:
嬉しい 【うれしい】 (adj-i) (uk) happy; glad; pleasant; (P)

【うれしい】= all the hiragana which is u-re-shi-i
嬉しい = the kanji replaces the u-re
- So we teach ourselves that if we see that:
kanji (嬉) + shi-i = ureshii = happy.

That's how we begin to break them apart.
I'm only barely scratching the surface with this example, but don't worry too much; a lot of questions will answer themselves the more you memorise characters and find that suddenly you can read stuff.

All a matter of persistence and patience, so good luck. ^^

Any files you need to add to be able to read or write japanese (using the IME input) are in here.
ty very much for the reply. so it seems i had the right order to learn the characters. i dont mind that it took a while to reply, life sure is demanding .
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Old 2008-06-30, 10:45   Link #1615
bungmonkey
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Say I wanted to say "the yellow book". Would I say koushoku na hon or koushoku no hon? I would have used "na" but I read a sentence like this where "no" was used. Does this change the meaning? Maybe from "the yellow book" to "the book of yellow"? It seems to mean the same thing but changes the literal translation so would they be interchangeable here? Here's the sentence I read if it will help:
あの黄色のセーターはこのブルーのセーターの2倍の値段である
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Old 2008-06-30, 11:53   Link #1616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Say I wanted to say "the yellow book". Would I say koushoku na hon or koushoku no hon? I would have used "na" but I read a sentence like this where "no" was used. Does this change the meaning? Maybe from "the yellow book" to "the book of yellow"? It seems to mean the same thing but changes the literal translation so would they be interchangeable here? Here's the sentence I read if it will help:
あの黄色のセーターはこのブルーのセーターの2倍の値段である
First of all, kiiro (きいろ/黄色) is a noun, and its adjective form is kiiroi (きいろい).

The smartest expression is "kiiroi hon" (きいろい ほん / 黄色い本).

You can make an adjective by adding "na" after a noun. It is so-called adjectival noun. The system is very convenient to make adjectives from, say, newly emerging nouns. But きいろな sounds awkward because you have already the proper adjective form.

(Slang-loving kids sometimes use adjectival nouns in an excessive way. e.g. "美人な人" (beauty-ish person). Just ignore them.)

Kiiro no hon (きいろ の ほん) means "a book of yellow"; kiiro/yellow is a noun, and "no" joins it to the hon/book to show the possessive relatinship. It makes usually no difference in meaning with "kiiroi hon". If any, I think it is like the non-restrictive/restrictive use of relative pronoun in English; "the book, which is yellow" v. "the book which is yellow". You don't need care about the distinction unless you are going to be an author.
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Old 2008-06-30, 12:07   Link #1617
bungmonkey
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Thanks, don't know what I would do without you!
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Old 2008-06-30, 13:25   Link #1618
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
pardon the dp - was answering each question seperately, figured to make it easier than having one mass wall of text for two different peopele.


入れる(いれる)[G2] put ~ into (transitive)
入る(はいる)[G1] to enter (instransitive)

I think slightly different than what tripperazn was asking, but you'd be able to tell which reading it is by the particle used before it and generally the context of the entire sentence.

As for 'iru', i ended up with this:
入る 【いる】 (v5r,vi) (See 気に入る) to get in; to go in; to come in; to flow into; to set; to set in; (P)

For the example 'ki ni iru' = to become concerned, it's just a case of memorising it together with the 'ki' kanji.
But on it's own, i've not seen it used, to be honest, iru tends to be written in hiragana typically for common usage.
It's mostly a matter of usage, though iru is the historical form of both; hairu originates from the compound verb haiiru (這い入る), which has the approximate meaning of "to slip inside" or "to come in quietly". Colloquial usages being what they are, it's not hard to see the meaning slide to something more general and equivalent to iru (thus taking on the same kanji and nearly replacing the original word).

As a side note, ireru was also originally written iru in its base form. It was only distinguishable in its other conjugations, where it took on the familiar ire- stem.
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Old 2008-06-30, 20:02   Link #1619
bungmonkey
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Two new sentences I made trying out more particles! Sorry for posting so much but I'm having fun learning.

ひらいくんがなんでざっかてんにいった?(Why did hirai-kun go to the store? Not sure if I need something between "なんで" and "ざっかてん")

みずきちゃんはえいがかんでえいがをみた、でもすきじゃなかった。 (Mizuki-chan saw a movie in the theatre but did not like it)

Sentence critique would be appreciated

EDIT: I often hear people saying "nani o" or "nani o sore" in animes. I get what is being said but I don't really understand how o works in that case grammatically if anybody could elaborate.

Last edited by bungmonkey; 2008-06-30 at 23:20.
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Old 2008-07-01, 02:33   Link #1620
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
EDIT: I often hear people saying "nani o" or "nani o sore" in animes. I get what is being said but I don't really understand how o works in that case grammatically if anybody could elaborate.

Has it been established in here in the past that learning Japanese solely of anime isn't a wise idea...
It's like rapidly pressing the buttons on a broken remote control, getting well annoyed and going
'sup with this?!" or 'what's with this crappy thing!'
How would you grammatically break that down to a person learning english?

nani o sore if written properly should be 'sore wa nan desu ka?' or 'sore wa, nani?'
nani o - is just a shortened form of 'nani o sore' = but means the same thing, could be translated like 'the hell?!'
Depends on the tone of the speaker and how they use those two sentences, but usually at times of frustration, being freaked out bout something, being upset or even being rude.

But it's very very casual speech, so not so grammatically inclined (imo anyways)
- i've a feeling that someone will whip out a textbook answer for you tho

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy View Post
You're mishearing it slightly.

They're saying "Nani yo, sore!" which is something like "What is that?!" I would also venture a guess and say the speaker in question is female, since they use "nani yo" rather than "nan da yo," though it doesn't necessarily have to be.
Gomen, you're right on the 'nani yo' for the exclaimations typically used in anime.

nani wo <insert unsaid verb>
Would be similar to
hon ga <insert unsaid verb>

Which would be translated into english depending on the context of the sentence.
note to self, no answering language questions within 1 hr of waking up >.>
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-07-01 at 06:22.
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