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Old 2008-07-09, 22:03   Link #1101
Sterling01
霊夢→デレ
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimmy88 View Post
Wait wut? so Henrietta does a 180-degree change? wtf =( I liked her character is tehre any reason why shes doing this?
Saito.... mostly
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Old 2008-07-09, 22:19   Link #1102
Deadwings
Heaven's Nightmare
 
 
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Up to vol 5, Henrietta is my favourite character! I don't know how does she develop further in the novels but as to what's translated she already gave me the impression of being a bit selfish, and maybe that's what called my attention. Quite an interesting personality.
(Note: I like elegant and beatiful ladys with a creepy darkside )

Not a really useful comment, just wanted to say it. Am I the only one who likes Henrietta over the rest?
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Old 2008-07-09, 23:29   Link #1103
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimmy88 View Post
Wait wut? so Henrietta does a 180-degree change? wtf =( I liked her character is tehre any reason why shes doing this?
I wouldn't say 180. To me, it all felt like it was in her character, and I don't think Henrietta is as bad as people make her sound at times.

It's not like imprisoning the people was a bad idea. Her reason wasn't unreasonable or anything...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
(Note: I like elegant and beatiful ladys with a creepy darkside )

Not a really useful comment, just wanted to say it. Am I the only one who likes Henrietta over the rest?
Then don't look at Henrietta for now. She doesn't fit "dark and creepy"... to me, anyways.

Probably one of the few.
There was a video of the first episode on nicodouga last week that lasted more than a day and 20000+ comments, and when Henrietta appeared, the comments were mostly:
-無能女王 (Incompetent/Powerless Queen) <--Very much so
-*insert a certain insulting 5 letter word rhyming with pitch* <--lots of comments were this
-Royal *insert 5 letter word*
Yeah, she is hated...
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Old 2008-07-10, 02:42   Link #1104
Ryunatta
Broken Void
 
 
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Just a random question lurking though from page 44 to this page (page 56)...

Why dont Lousie and Saito just admit they love each other and be done with it...?-_- Im almost ready too quit if it wasnt for the Louise and saito kisses; which btw doesnt even happen every volume -_-...

Is it still even worth reading if one is only reading just too see lousie and saito finally find peace together with out having too restart the relationship every time...?

Just my wondering since ive never seen anyone post these veiws before...once i get my answer the comment willl be removed soo no need to worry...
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Old 2008-07-10, 02:49   Link #1105
AnCri123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimmy88 View Post
Wait wut? so Henrietta does a 180-degree change? wtf =( I liked her character is tehre any reason why shes doing this?
Well, no, it's not the 180-degree change at all,
(warning, lots of words ahead, proceed at your own peril :P)

First of all, when it comes to the non-japanese speaking public, chance are that you, like many anime fans out there, were initially atracted to the ZnT series after watching it's anime version. After that, being a curious person and all that, you went on to read manga/novels of the series. ( at least thats how i did it :P )
Naturally, the character's image that you have is one from the anime...


Henrietta in the novels is quite different from what you have seen in the first or second season of the show. In the anime, her character suffered the same fate as many others, and has been downgraded to a stereotypical image of a 'kind princess' - selfless young queen who is there 'to bring the hapiness for the country's common people'...She is shown as this overly-kind ruler, who is intelligent, never angers and is willing to sacrifice her own hapiness and love life for the good of the country. She doesnt want to bring her country to war, doesnt have any character faults, etc etc. Basicly she is a 'Perfect Queen' - and this is how most people think of her after watching anime.

However, in the novels, she is anything but perfect. I wont go into a detailed analysis now, but it is easily seen starting from her very first dialog when she was riding in the carriage with cardinal. You can almost say she's a different person from the anime.

For example, the invasion of Albion - in the novels, one of the main factors behind her decision seems to be a personal revenge against the prince Wales' killers. Anime version of the events - she is extremely reluctant to start a war, and is literally forced into it 'for the good of the country'. Another example - she didnt know or even wanted to ask Saito's name until as late as volume 5 - this after Saito had 1) kissed her 2) brought her Wales' ring on his own initiative 3) saved her and talked to her several times before - again, quite different from the anime.

This doesnt mean she's 'worse' then anime version - she is simply not this ideal girl, and has her faults - and who wouldnt in her position. She is 17, and yet instead of doing what most normal people do at that age she has to lead a country in war, resist constant plots against her from both the other country's spies and from the Tristain's nobles too. She is always criticized, the only guy she loved has been killed ( in a way, twice). And after all this, she still has to keep her integrity and try to be a good ruler. All in all, she is easily the most complex character in the series.

Henrietta's example shows how the anime dumbed down the novel's storyline into a mostly fanservice series with the occasional cool factor and several out-of-place attempts at horror and moralizing ( the Agnes/Colbert episode was just stupid and unnecessary). Siesta's character, btw, has also suffered horribly at the hands of the anime people. She is basicly this maid with boobs who is mostly there for the fanservice - she is so different it's not even funny.



Damn it all, after reading the stuff nemo wrote I'm even more interested in the novels...Too bad that by the time these volumes are translated I'll probably already turn senile from old age
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Old 2008-07-10, 03:21   Link #1106
AnCri123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryunatta View Post
Just a random question lurking though from page 44 to this page (page 56)...

Why dont Lousie and Saito just admit they love each other and be done with it...?-_- Im almost ready too quit if it wasnt for the Louise and saito kisses; which btw doesnt even happen every volume -_-...

Is it still even worth reading if one is only reading just too see lousie and saito finally find peace together with out having too restart the relationship every time...?
That depends.....lets put it this way - if they 'just admit they love each other and be done with it' the series would be a lot more boring. The main selling factor here is not politics or void magic, but the comical relationships between characters in the series. If they clearly define Louise and Saito as a finished couple, there wouldnt be much place for funny things to happen...

That aside, SaitoxLouise relationship in the anime is pretty horrible, and thats putting it nicely. Every freaking season is the same - it starts out more or less normal, towards the middle their relationship for various reasons deteriorates to the point like they are going to break up, and then it magicly mends , they do a final showdown battle with the bad guys, and its a happy end with kisses all around. Then at the beginning of the next season they do a rollback and start the whole thing all over. Rinse and repeat. I can already see what the third season is gonna be like - a cute Tifannia with these hu-uge boobs comes to school, Saito goes 'Aaahh' , Louise goes 'Grrr' , and the well known scenario full of jealousy, insecurity and idiocity ensues...

On the other hand, even in the novels, i find the SaitoxLouise relationship to be , at the very least, annoying as hell. Specifically, it's Louise. I just dont see what's to good about her - spoiled, selfish child, full of inferiority complexes, flies into jealus rages at least twice per day, and generally acting stupid....dont forget the 'lets beat the crap out of Saito for no reason' part...I just find her annoying most of the time - dunno, maybe it's my personal preference....But al least their relationships seems to be somewhat progressing in the novels...I'm personally supporter of Siesta, who is a much better character then in anime, but everyone can see where the novels are going in the end...
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Old 2008-07-10, 04:12   Link #1107
rastilin
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That's not a selling point; I've dropped plenty of manga series because things just keep happening but the relationship undergoes constant resets. If you unmake all the advancement after every volume then why bother following their relationship at all?

Quote:
On the other hand, even in the novels, i find the SaitoxLouise relationship to be , at the very least, annoying as hell. Specifically, it's Louise. I just dont see what's to good about her - spoiled, selfish child, full of inferiority complexes, flies into jealus rages at least twice per day, and generally acting stupid....dont forget the 'lets beat the crap out of Saito for no reason' part...I just find her annoying most of the time - dunno, maybe it's my personal preference....But al least their relationships seems to be somewhat progressing in the novels...I'm personally supporter of Siesta, who is a much better character then in anime, but everyone can see where the novels are going in the end...
Yes, I couldn't agree more, it's annoying as hell. If a person you knew took that level of abuse, you'd tell them to just leave the girl/boy because no human should be treated that way.
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Old 2008-07-10, 04:39   Link #1108
Darknemo2000
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And I disagree i find Louise not so much annoying. Lets say another Tsundere loli from Toradora (Aisaka Taiga) is much more annoying for me as at least Louise loves Saito while Taisaka doesn't even love the main character and is in love with his best friend but keeps abusing the main character and using him.

I find Louise very likable because though she is spoiled brat she does have her sense of responsibility, is ready to throw everything for her friends (like when she followed Saito to save Tabitha she rejected her noble title and became a commoner). and her love for Saito is really monstrous to the point where she tries to kill herself once learning (or believing he is dead).

I don't see how it is annoying as Saito likes Louise a lot, mostly for those points either, yes she is extreme but she can be extreme in liking or disregarding her own self for others. Not to mention that I find her to be the most cute (the way she talks and acts) compared to all other ZnT cast.

She grows up much more after Saito's return after his supposed death also.

And i agree with AnCri123 about Henrietta. She isnt evil or bad, yet she can be two-faced, manipulative and rather selfish at other times. She isn't that easy to like as she is probably most controversial character in ZnT but she is also arguably the most complex either.

And yes she is rather disliked by the most ZnT fans in Japan. Well again they can read novels beyond volume 9 and after that and that is the place where it becomes much more easier to dislike Henrietta.

P.S. AnCri123, don't be so pessimistic. Yes, right now i am the only active translator but serenade may return and we also may get those few new translators that Matt talked about so it may not take so long.

Right now i am halfway-through part 4 already (mostly because of the toothache I am having last few days as it ensures I have sleepless nights taht i spend translating so I progress faster)...

And then will take over chapter 1 of volume 6 (Novaren quality is still not up there as he needs more experience) which has already some parts translated... So yaeh.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-07-10 at 04:55.
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Old 2008-07-10, 14:45   Link #1109
AnCri123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I find Louise very likable because though she is spoiled brat she does have her sense of responsibility, is ready to throw everything for her friends (like when she followed Saito to save Tabitha she rejected her noble title and became a commoner). and her love for Saito is really monstrous to the point where she tries to kill herself once learning (or believing he is dead). She grows up much more after Saito's return after his supposed death also.

And yes Henrietta is rather disliked by the most ZnT fans in Japan. Well again they can read novels beyond volume 9 and after that and that is the place where it becomes much more easier to dislike Henrietta.
Yeah, see, here's what i'm talking about - since i dont have the benefit of reading anything past volume 4 ( well, 5 now) , I cant really be sure what happens to any of the characters as time goes on - it's all basicly hear-say. The opinion i have right now is based mostly on the first few volumes ( about a third of the published material) and a few brief reviews from readers who often mix their own opinion into it. And unlike some other series, characters in ZnT do change over time.

From what i can tell, most of the interesting character developments occur right after volume 8 - basicly when Saito supposedly dies and comes back alive later. It's true for Louise and Siesta, Henrietta, Tifannia and later Tabitha too i think. So you can almost be sure that my opinion is going to change one way or another once i get to read it fo myself.

As for Louise - a lot has to do with my personal preferences...At least in the beginning I dont really find her likable - with the whole master/servant and noble/commoner stuff, the constant jealousy and beatings of Saito even though she supposedly doesnt like him.... The last scene with her that i remember was during the war against Albion when she was intentionally flirting with Julio Cesare because she wanted to hurt Saito....That there doesnt exactly put her in the best light...If she does change her attitude and mature later on - great, only more reason for me to look forward to the latter volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
P.S. AnCri123, don't be so pessimistic. Yes, right now i am the only active translator but serenade may return and we also may get those few new translators that Matt talked about so it may not take so long.

Right now i am halfway-through part 4 already (mostly because of the toothache I am having last few days as it ensures I have sleepless nights taht i spend translating so I progress faster)...

And then will take over chapter 1 of volume 6 (Novaren quality is still not up there as he needs more experience) which has already some parts translated... So yaeh.
Well, actually, instead of pessimistic I was trying to be funny - i guess I'll have to work on that some more ..

But still, I dont suppose I'll get to read the chapters I'm interested in anytime soon. As it is, only about 1/3 of the novels has been translated so far and lets face it, even if the number of translators for some reason drasticly increases it will still take quite a long time...If the current speed on anime persists, we are more likely to see the newer volumes of Znt on TV rather then in the .txt format - which is not a good thing, since novels are much better in quality.

Having said that, I understand that a translator's job is not only difficult and time consuming task, but there's very little reward too. And certainly, while a lot of people can complain about the slow speed of translations, very few would actually have the patience and determination to work on the project. So my hat's off to you and other people working on the novels, I enjoyed reading the first few available volumes a lot.
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Old 2008-07-10, 15:24   Link #1110
Deadwings
Heaven's Nightmare
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Then don't look at Henrietta for now. She doesn't fit "dark and creepy"... to me, anyways.
Sorry I'm not a native english speaker and it's hard to me to choose the correct words to express my ideas. It wasn't what I tried to mean. It's just as AnCri123 said of her, and as far as volume 5 tells, that's why I like her. Anyway don't pay attention to me

I agree with Louise being annoying. Too illogical, self-centered and not reallistic at all for me. I mean, at least she knows what she feels, many people denies their own feelings but for Louise it's just not enough. But the way it might evolve is what has me waiting for next volume. More than the characters themseves, I prefer seing the development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Right now i am halfway-through part 4 already (mostly because of the toothache I am having last few days as it ensures I have sleepless nights taht i spend translating so I progress faster)...
Should I thank your tooth? just kidding, get better soon
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Old 2008-07-11, 19:04   Link #1111
Darknemo2000
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Part 4 is finished (still needs some editing but this is up editors). So with this chapter 3 is finished as well...

And almost all volume 5 finished as well as only chapters 1 and 3 are important for the story as chapter 2 is only a Tabitha's side story.

As to why Henrietta's musketeers did not follow Richmon...well all of them are commoner girls and seems like the passage was going straight down so if they would have jumped they would have died as the cannot cast "Levitation' spell.

And with the last scene Saito proved us that his IQ is only slightly bigger than dog's.
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Old 2008-07-11, 21:51   Link #1112
gugumomu
the hedgehog
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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still having difficulties sleeping? but the way you use this time is quite constructive, sharing your knowledge with others. i'll read the 4'th part tomorrow while drinking a big cup of coffee. now i'm going to sleep, it's morning-break here. we're in the same time-zone i think (GMT+2).
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Old 2008-07-12, 04:36   Link #1113
Darknemo2000
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Well my tooth is still not making my life easier so naturally I have more time to spend... even if that means staying up to 4 or 5 am...

Anyways, if you guys are interested in other B-T projects, it would help me a lot if you'd come to this Spice and Wolf poll

Spoiler for Link:


And vote in it as I want to make Spice and Wolf iamge storing system same as Zero no Tsukaima's and Toradoras. It would help me a lot.


As for ZnT novels I already started working on volume 6, chapter 1 (added image and corrected few places in what have been translated so far.)

There is still much of it left to translate but since I know that my tooth will be encouraging me to work I hope I won't be taking it too long.
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Old 2008-07-13, 18:02   Link #1114
crystalalien87
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^^saw your vote on the poll the episode seemed kinda rushed for the hole getting my powers back but since i have to wait for the subs i wont really understand anything...
im curious regardless what everybody else thinks what made this so different from the novel...im not complaining i just want to hear your opinion on it...cuz i personally look at them as two separate types of shows instead of one....
what i got from the episode was at the beginning louise getting jealous as usual cuz of siesta and her chewing him out....they find tiffania and lousie freaks out about her breast...saito gets mad at louise for harassing tiffania...louise leaves followed by siesta which they join forces in order to help each other against tiffania breast...um lousie does the familiar chant thing and saito appears....they fight, and then decided to do the final part of the ritual...(the kiss) and then he gets his powers back...ending is they fight a little more saito acts like a dog....this is how i interpreted it so im not positive on what really happened...
...something else i realized is how they seem to be following a plot now...S2 didnt have that till the end but S3 seems like a real story regardless of the tit jokes and the edited thing in the episode was kinda stupid...
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Old 2008-07-16, 09:43   Link #1115
hchuang
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uh....

Not sure about people finding Louise personality annoying but... that is exactly how Tsundere girls go. It's an extremely childish behavior and many people find it endearing.

I can't imagine people put up with it for very long in real life though.
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Old 2008-07-16, 14:28   Link #1116
Darknemo2000
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True, but again Louise is an extreme example. (Though I believe Taiga Aisaka from toradora to be MUCH worse, as at least Louise loves Saito).

Though tsundere personalities are not that far from real life, much more rare are the soft always smiley type of girls really, as in reality there are quite a few tsundereish people (not necessarily to the extent of Louise or Asuka from Evangelion, but still...)

Oh yeah a new translator joined ZnT which allowed me to go back to my editor job once again (as I count myself only as an worst case scenario translator).
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Old 2008-07-17, 00:08   Link #1117
hchuang
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well... I've read Toradora as well. The vibe i get is that Taiga Aisaka is basically a Louise clone in every way.
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Old 2008-07-17, 01:15   Link #1118
Darknemo2000
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True, but again the main difference is that Louise loves the main gay, while Taisaga loves the main guy's best friend and is only using the main guy to get to his best friend and is destroying anything that the main guy might want to have with her best friend as in "You have to get me with your best friend first only then I will allow you something".

Thats why I find Louise to be much less annoying as you still know that she likes Saito, even with the way she acts.
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Old 2008-07-17, 02:03   Link #1119
holyman282
Snape: "I hate Potter!"
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
True, but again Louise is an extreme example. (Though I believe Taiga Aisaka from toradora to be MUCH worse, as at least Louise loves Saito).

Though tsundere personalities are not that far from real life, much more rare are the soft always smiley type of girls really, as in reality there are quite a few tsundereish people (not necessarily to the extent of Louise or Asuka from Evangelion, but still...)

Oh yeah a new translator joined ZnT which allowed me to go back to my editor job once again (as I count myself only as an worst case scenario translator).

Awww I really like your translations, although they aren't as accurate they are fast and good enough. Oh well.
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Old 2008-07-18, 00:50   Link #1120
_kira_
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thanks to baka tsuki for volume 5 and volume 6 chapter 1... keep em coming guys

i too liked darknemo's translation as he is fast and its like with him we get at least 1 chapter a week...

just a question on vol. 6 ch. 1: is callman also colbert? i'm just confused...
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