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Old 2008-07-14, 07:04   Link #1281
hayato
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Originally Posted by Esper 28 View Post
I agree whole heartedly that the scar is there for a reason! I just really liked the meaning you were bringing to it. I think it was spot on, honestly.

And I dunno if I would call this scar a "regular scar". I think it's got other purposes. I've firmly cemented my beliefs in the idea that all things Geass are scientifically explained and I think this scar is tied to that. Then again, I've got absolutely no explanation on how anything scientific could make a person immortal. But I guess that's why it's being confused for "magic" in the first place, right?

Yeah I agree.

Well, I for one would like C.C. to move on at the end of the series, start anew once every issue is resolved/terminated. In regards with romance I don't believe C.C. will end up with anyone, she is not human, she doesn't belong on Earth.
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Old 2008-07-14, 07:09   Link #1282
Esper 28
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Originally Posted by hayato View Post

Yeah I agree.

Well, I for one would like C.C. to move on at the end of the series, start anew once every issue is resolved/terminated. In regards with romance I don't believe C.C. will end up with anyone, she is not human, she doesn't belong on Earth.
I agree with you completely!

C.C. deserves a second chance at a normal life. It really seems like she was robbed of, well, of everything. And as far as the romance nonsense goes, in order to get a fresh start, she needs to not affiliate herself with any of the people she's currently with. She needs to go off on her own and if she finds romance in her travels, then so be it. It's definitely not going to be with any of the characters we know.

C.C. and her travels after the show sounds like a great idea for one of those "slice of life" animes, no? Heheh.
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Old 2008-07-14, 09:17   Link #1283
Var
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But the three of them are against Lelouch. So putting them with Kallen makes no sense. That makes the OP pointless.
Just because we do not know some thing's meaning does not make it pointless. As I said, all four of those people exist on both sides of Lelouch and are, in fact, the only four left who are not Suzaku or C.C.. It could very be alluding to that fact.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
Oh, so anything could have happened after Kallen stopped him, but Kallen stopping him, was written in stone? You make no sense. You are the one who started the anything was possible because Kallen stopped him debate. If you are going there, anything is possible anywhere. Maybe Kallen not coming there could have played out for the best, for all you know. You are the one to start with because Kallen stopped him at that time, Lelouch could have been saved later in myriad ways.
Yes, yes it was written in stone. Or as close to it as it could. As I said, no one else was even remotely shown as having worried about Lelouch. Rolo was also shown to be trying to break Lelouch so there we really only two possibilities (especially when we saw that C.C. didn't even give a damn). Either Lelouch would break under Rolo's torment, or Kallen would carry through with why she called him in the first place.

I know I started the 'anything is possible because Kallen stopped him debate' you do not need to inform me about my own arguments. And so far, I have kept that point quite alive. My saying that not everything is possible prior to the event is in no way contradictory to my original claim.

Do not even say that anything is possible anywhere. This is not a blank slate, only on an empty plane of no preordained events is 'anything possible anywhere'. In a story only a few events are ever possible because of how the story was built up. For instance, since you seemed to have missed this point, the show made it quite clear that Lelouch needed to be saved from Rolo and from his loss of Nunally. The only person shown to care about the situation or even understand it was Kallen. As such, if no one had shown up, meaning Kallen had not shown up, the number of possibilities is limited to one and only one baring some supernatural nonsense. That possibility is Rolo breaking Lelouch. Once Kallen intervenes all bets are off because Rolo's original plan is thwarted and Lelouch is no longer completely out of his mind.

Sure enough, Lelouch could be saved later in a myriad of ways, he could also be further condemned and the story could have ended. Given the situation and Rolo's existence, the latter would be far more likely. Once Rolo breaks Lelouch, he'll not let anyone have him. We know this as fact, that he is greedy of Lelouch, there is no other reason for him to have killed Shirley. So while anything is certainly possible, some events are far more probable than others, so much so that the improbable should hardly even be humored.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
How can you say if the fireworks scene didn't happen Lelouch would still have returned in time? You are undermining the fireworks scene. If it didn't happen Lelouch wouldn't have gone back. He was down in the dumps. If his friends had gone to the trip he would still have been depressed. Suzaku would have been able to get the OotBK. Lelouch wouldn't have returned. It would end there.
The amount by how much I am raising Kallen's role in the events is minuscule, but I am still putting it as a more important part of the overall whole. I am not saying it is some ultimate event, I am simply saying that it is marginally more important. On the grand scheme of things it hardly matters. This is completely bypassing the fact that I am looking at it from character contribution, in which case Kallen is the person who contributed most. Whereas the fireworks scene was many people.

If you are curious as to why I do such a thing, it is because one happened out of coincidence, while the other occurred because of a single person's own actions.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
Kallen didn't stop "Rollo's plan to get Lelouch depressed". Rolo didn't even offer him the drug. And he was still all depressed after Kallen left, so I don't see how she succeeded in pulling him out of his sadness. She stopped him from taking refrain. The rest was done by his friends at school.
Again, I've never said he was snapped out of his depression. I said he was simply pulled from the deep end by Kallen. And yes, Rolo did not give Lelouch the drug, but he most certainly forced him into the corner where only the drug was left. Or do I have to again bring up the train? Rolo's plan is as clear as day, he wanted to break Lelouch, how can you even be arguing that?

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
So whatever happened between Lelouch and C.C. in Kallen's absense was meaningless? I don't think so. I don't think the cave scene was created only to show Kallen's jealousy. It also showed Lelouch was different from C.C.'s other partners. He thanked her, he cared for her. Foreshadowing like this is usually saved for the end. When it comes to Kallen, you are biased too. You don't want to see that there were other things being developed there too.
I was referring to your overly emphasized line of the white snow. The cave scene in its entirety is a different matter entirely and not one of which I have been speaking about in relation to Kallen.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
The way the episode ended, -with Lelouch's particular words, and C.C.'s "I see", with Kallen all jealous, it does.
No, it forms the illusion of one. You cannot have a love triangle when the only love evident at that time was from Kallen to Zero. There was no evident love between Lelouch and C.C., nor between Lelouch and Kallen. There simply was no love triangle that existed without the perversion of events by personal bias.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
Then why did she say no one had ever thanked her. Or that she was all alone? How have they cleary shown her love? What made her so cold?
I'd gander, from the most recent episode, that her selfishness towards whatever her wish is, made her cold. She is all alone because she chose to be. She chose to leave Mao, and she chose to leave the Cult. She said it herself.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
What selfishness? Did she get thrown out or did she leave on her own? Wasn't she a captive of Clovis, when Lelouch found her in the first episode?
If she tells them that she's sorry for abandoning them... then more likely than not, she left of her own volition. Or do you think that Clovis stormed the Geass cult to capture her?

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But that again only showed that Kallen is falling for Lelouch. Did Lelouch even so much as think of her in the last episode?
Where have I even mentioned Lelouch's affection towards Kallen? I simply said that there are romantic developments occurring. Kallen's attempt to learn about Lelouch through his sister is about as obvious as it can get.
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Old 2008-07-14, 11:38   Link #1284
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Just because we do not know some thing's meaning does not make it pointless. As I said, all four of those people exist on both sides of Lelouch and are, in fact, the only four left who are not Suzaku or C.C.. It could very be alluding to that fact.
I can say the same thing. For all we know Kallen might leave Lelouch. You can't know what's it implies until we finish the season. Like with S1 we can look back on it's OP and see what meaning each scene had. I can't read the artist's mind - it might or might not have meant something.


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Yes, yes it was written in stone. Or as close to it as it could. As I said, no one else was even remotely shown as having worried about Lelouch. Rolo was also shown to be trying to break Lelouch so there we really only two possibilities (especially when we saw that C.C. didn't even give a damn). Either Lelouch would break under Rolo's torment, or Kallen would carry through with why she called him in the first place.

I know I started the 'anything is possible because Kallen stopped him debate' you do not need to inform me about my own arguments. And so far, I have kept that point quite alive. My saying that not everything is possible prior to the event is in no way contradictory to my original claim.

Do not even say that anything is possible anywhere. This is not a blank slate, only on an empty plane of no preordained events is 'anything possible anywhere'. In a story only a few events are ever possible because of how the story was built up. For instance, since you seemed to have missed this point, the show made it quite clear that Lelouch needed to be saved from Rolo and from his loss of Nunally. The only person shown to care about the situation or even understand it was Kallen. As such, if no one had shown up, meaning Kallen had not shown up, the number of possibilities is limited to one and only one baring some supernatural nonsense. That possibility is Rolo breaking Lelouch. Once Kallen intervenes all bets are off because Rolo's original plan is thwarted and Lelouch is no longer completely out of his mind.

Sure enough, Lelouch could be saved later in a myriad of ways, he could also be further condemned and the story could have ended. Given the situation and Rolo's existence, the latter would be far more likely. Once Rolo breaks Lelouch, he'll not let anyone have him. We know this as fact, that he is greedy of Lelouch, there is no other reason for him to have killed Shirley. So while anything is certainly possible, some events are far more probable than others, so much so that the improbable should hardly even be humored.


The amount by how much I am raising Kallen's role in the events is minuscule, but I am still putting it as a more important part of the overall whole. I am not saying it is some ultimate event, I am simply saying that it is marginally more important. On the grand scheme of things it hardly matters. This is completely bypassing the fact that I am looking at it from character contribution, in which case Kallen is the person who contributed most. Whereas the fireworks scene was many people.

If you are curious as to why I do such a thing, it is because one happened out of coincidence, while the other occurred because of a single person's own actions.



Again, I've never said he was snapped out of his depression. I said he was simply pulled from the deep end by Kallen. And yes, Rolo did not give Lelouch the drug, but he most certainly forced him into the corner where only the drug was left. Or do I have to again bring up the train? Rolo's plan is as clear as day, he wanted to break Lelouch, how can you even be arguing that?

The only people to knew about his loss were Rolo, C.C. and Kallen. C.C. was too busy pretending not to care. Rolo saw it as a good opportunity to keep him to himself. Kallen went after him. It doesn't make her the only person to care though. C.C. didn't go after him for other reasons. Different people deal with things differently. She expected him to come back on his own. Kallen went after him. She happened to find him there taking refrain. Neither of them knew about his miserable condition at the time. Kallen originally goes to talk to him. If you call the fireworks scene a coincidence, this was just as much of a coincidence. Even more so, because she was lucky to find him in time, and lucky he was where she had gone.



What plan did Rolo have? He didn't even come until Kallen left. So how could Kallen stop his plan. Any plan he had he put into motion after she left. It was nice of her to come but it doesn't show she cared more than C.C. They are both different people. C.C. spends half her life trying to hide her emotions. She cared enough to smile (she was quick enough to stop smiling, when she saw Kaguya watching). C.C. puts up a cold front. She thought Lelouch would come back on his own. It happened not to work in her favour.


If his friends had left for the trip it would have been over. Any other thing couldn't have happened to send him back in time. I don't see how anything else could have saved him. They didn't stay there because it was raining or something ruined their plans. They stayed there for Lelouch. It was no coincidence. That is what touched him. That they cared about the people more than the place.





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Originally Posted by Var View Post
I was referring to your overly emphasized line of the white snow. The cave scene in its entirety is a different matter entirely and not one of which I have been speaking about in relation to Kallen.



No, it forms the illusion of one. You cannot have a love triangle when the only love evident at that time was from Kallen to Zero. There was no evident love between Lelouch and C.C., nor between Lelouch and Kallen. There simply was no love triangle that existed without the perversion of events by personal bias.
The white snow line was quite significant. C.C. had (in the previous ep) talked about "snow being white because it forgot it's colour" (or some thing to that effect). Lelouch remembered it and brought it up. They are trying to form a triangle. It was also evident in R2 when C.C. interrupted Kallen and Lelou (when she fell on too of him). I think the "Tabasco line" was jealousy while you could think otherwise.

There is no point in arguing anymore on this. I'll leave this to point of view now.


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
I'd gander, from the most recent episode, that her selfishness towards whatever her wish is, made her cold. She is all alone because she chose to be. She chose to leave Mao, and she chose to leave the Cult. She said it herself.



If she tells them that she's sorry for abandoning them... then more likely than not, she left of her own volition. Or do you think that Clovis stormed the Geass cult to capture her?



Where have I even mentioned Lelouch's affection towards Kallen? I simply said that there are romantic developments occurring. Kallen's attempt to learn about Lelouch through his sister is about as obvious as it can get.
You can't tell if her wish is selfish until you know what the wish is. It might be as big as saving the world or something. More than choice it was lack of choice. She is putting the wish above everything. What makes it so important that he chooses to be unhappy in return?

She said she was sorry for neglecting them. It doesn't prove she left the cult. I doubt she handed her leadership happily to V.V.

Last edited by Asleep; 2008-07-14 at 11:50.
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Old 2008-07-14, 12:11   Link #1285
Var
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I can say the same thing. For all we know Kallen might leave Lelouch. You can't know what's it implies until we finish the season. Like with S1 we can look back on it's OP and see what meaning each scene had. I can't read the artist's mind - it might or might not have meant something.
See, this is where the difference comes up. I have not attempted to infer any meaning from that scene of the OP because I haven't foggiest what it amounts to. You are the one who said it means she'll betray Lelouch. I simply replied that, due to Nina's presence, the idea doesn't really hold much water. The only person we know that will likely switch sides is Anya, thats one out of four. That's not much of a basis for a theory.

I've humored several ideas concerning that part of the OP, and the only one that doesn't fall apart is that those are the characters that still exist on both sides of Lelouch.
Like so:
  1. Anya is trying to understand her old memories concerning one aspect of Lelouch, while fighting the Zero aspect.
  2. Gino is on the Ashford side and has a connection to Suzaku, while at the same time fighting the Zero aspect.
  3. Nina knows of Lelouch Lamperouge as a good friend, yet despises the Zero aspect.
  4. Kallen knows both sides of Lelouch, and is, through Nunally, learning more about the real Lelouch.
The only other people:
  1. Shirley is dead.
  2. C.C. already knows all aspects of Lelouch.
  3. Suzaku is on a hunt for Zero and is fixated on Lelouch being Zero. In other words, one sided.


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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
The only people to knew about his loss were Rolo, C.C. and Kallen. C.C. was too busy pretending not to care. Rolo saw it as a good opportunity to keep him to himself. Kallen went after him. It doesn't make her the only person to care though. C.C. didn't go after him for other reasons. Different people deal with things differently. She expected him to come back on his own. Kallen went after him. She happened to find him there taking refrain. Neither of them knew about his miserable condition at the time. Kallen originally goes to talk to him. If you call the fireworks scene a coincidence, this was just as much of a coincidence. Even more so, because she was lucky to find him in time, and lucky he was where she had gone.
Kallen is portrayed as the only person to care enough to do something. C.C. may have cared, but clearly not enough. There was no one holding her down or keeping her from helping Lelouch, she chose not to. They may not have known his exact situation (which I highly doubt with C.C. as she's shown the ability to know more than what she can see with her eyes) but only one of them acted. If all things are to be considered equal, then the one who cared more, did more.

That is not what I meant by coincidence. Especially not if we bother arguing causality.

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What plan did Rolo have? He didn't even come until Kallen left. So how could Kallen stop his plan. Any plan he had he put into motion after she left. It was nice of her to come but it doesn't show she cared more than C.C. They are both different people. C.C. spends half her life trying to hide her emotions. She cared enough to smile (she was quick enough to stop smiling, when she saw Kaguya watching). C.C. puts up a cold front. She thought Lelouch would come back on his own. It happened not to work in her favour.
What purpose did Rolo have in torturing Lelouch with Nunally's speech then? He was meticulous in his actions on the train and shortly after, that is what one does when they plan something. Kallen showing up before he manages to find Lelouch stops Lelouch from completely breaking from what Rolo had just done.

I'm sorry but facial expressions are trumped wholeheartedly by actual actions. As I said before, Kallen cared enough to do something. Therein it does show that she cared more than C.C. because if Kallen had, say, been like C.C. then Lelouch would have been lost to his past. Unless you're going to tell me that C.C. can see the future? So, as much as C.C. may 'care', she didn't care enough to do anything.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
If his friends had left for the trip it would have been over. Any other thing couldn't have happened to send him back in time. I don't see how anything else could have saved him. They didn't stay there because it was raining or something ruined their plans. They stayed there for Lelouch. It was no coincidence. That is what touched him. That they cared about the people more than the place.
As I said before, you're thinking of the wrong thing as being coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Asleep View Post
The white snow line was quite significant. C.C. had (in the previous ep) talked about "snow being white because it forgot it's colour" (or some thing to that effect). Lelouch remembered it and brought it up. They are trying to form a triangle. It was also evident in R2 when C.C. interrupted Kallen and Lelou (when she fell on too of him). I think the "Tabasco line" was jealousy while you could think otherwise.
I've stated my point, if you will keep returning it with 'I think it will amount to XYZ' then I have no way to continue my argument. I am trying to show you what has been developed, you're telling me what could be developed. I don't give a damn and two cents about what could happen, I am focusing on what has happened and where the actual plot has, up till now, gone with it.

As for the Tabasco sauce line... I'll go right back and throw in the fact that her interruption was not on a 'I love you' line, but on a line that would have likely changed the entire mood of what Lelouch said. The way C.C. interrupted the moment leaves Kallen not knowing anything beyond that Lelouch asked her, and only her, to return with him to Ashford. Had C.C. not appeared, and Lelouch continued, Kallen would have likely been privy to Lelouch's plan which would have involved everyone not just her.

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There is no point in arguing anymore on this. I'll leave this to point of view now.
So be it.

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You can't tell if her wish is selfish until you know what the wish is. It might be as big as saving the world or something. More than choice it was lack of choice. She is putting the wish above everything. What makes it so important that he chooses to be unhappy in return?
I didn't say her wish was selfish, I said she was selfish and alone because of her wish. She's done selfish things to see the wish through, even if the wish turns out to be world peace, she's still forsaken people for the wish.

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She said she was sorry for neglecting them. It doesn't prove she left the cult. I doubt she handed her leadership to V.V. happily.
I could be mistaken, but neglecting something usually requires personal choice. One does not neglect to take care of an animal when they are incapacitated, one neglects to take care of said animal when they make a personal choice not to care for it.

She chose, for whatever reason, to turn her back on the Cult.
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Old 2008-07-14, 15:13   Link #1286
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See, this is where the difference comes up. I have not attempted to infer any meaning from that scene of the OP because I haven't foggiest what it amounts to. You are the one who said it means she'll betray Lelouch. I simply replied that, due to Nina's presence, the idea doesn't really hold much water. The only person we know that will likely switch sides is Anya, thats one out of four. That's not much of a basis for a theory.

I've humored several ideas concerning that part of the OP, and the only one that doesn't fall apart is that those are the characters that still exist on both sides of Lelouch.
Like so:
  1. Anya is trying to understand her old memories concerning one aspect of Lelouch, while fighting the Zero aspect.
  2. Gino is on the Ashford side and has a connection to Suzaku, while at the same time fighting the Zero aspect.
  3. Nina knows of Lelouch Lamperouge as a good friend, yet despises the Zero aspect.
  4. Kallen knows both sides of Lelouch, and is, through Nunally, learning more about the real Lelouch.
The only other people:
  1. Shirley is dead.
  2. C.C. already knows all aspects of Lelouch.
  3. Suzaku is on a hunt for Zero and is fixated on Lelouch being Zero. In other words, one sided.
But isn't it possible that Kallen might switch sides? I am just throwing it there as a possibility. It could mean any of the things you listed, but it could also mean she leaves. Suzaku might fill her brain with some nonsense. It could also mean nothing and was just put there because she is one of the characters.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Kallen is portrayed as the only person to care enough to do something. C.C. may have cared, but clearly not enough. There was no one holding her down or keeping her from helping Lelouch, she chose not to. They may not have known his exact situation (which I highly doubt with C.C. as she's shown the ability to know more than what she can see with her eyes) but only one of them acted. If all things are to be considered equal, then the one who cared more, did more.

That is not what I meant by coincidence. Especially not if we bother arguing causality.


I'm sorry but facial expressions are trumped wholeheartedly by actual actions. As I said before, Kallen cared enough to do something. Therein it does show that she cared more than C.C. because if Kallen had, say, been like C.C. then Lelouch would have been lost to his past. Unless you're going to tell me that C.C. can see the future? So, as much as C.C. may 'care', she didn't care enough to do anything.


As I said before, you're thinking of the wrong thing as being coincidence.

People show their concern in different ways. If a child falls, one parent might go and pick them up, while another might leave them alone because they want them to pick them self up, and thus grow stronger. Neither of them are wrong. Neither cared less. And like I said before, she was surprised to find him with the drug. It was not some information they already had. She happened to find him there. And you don't know how much C.C. knew. Don't tell me she has remote viewing or some other power. We are talking about what we know.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
What purpose did Rolo have in torturing Lelouch with Nunally's speech then? He was meticulous in his actions on the train and shortly after, that is what one does when they plan something. Kallen showing up before he manages to find Lelouch stops Lelouch from completely breaking from what Rolo had just done.
When did he torture Lelouch with Nunanally's speech? He was following Lelouch, but that could be because he was worried about him. I think I am missing something here. Could you refresh my memory?

Edited after morbosfist's post: But he was still broken down after Kallen left. She only stopped him from taking the drug. She halted Rolo's plan temporarily, but after she left he was back to his old self.


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I've stated my point, if you will keep returning it with 'I think it will amount to XYZ' then I have no way to continue my argument. I am trying to show you what has been developed, you're telling me what could be developed. I don't give a damn and two cents about what could happen, I am focusing on what has happened and where the actual plot has, up till now, gone with it.
Nothing has been developed so far. But it doesn't make the dialogue any less important. I think it's important, and will play out later. I mean, her snow speech was delivered in the previous episode. He remembered it, and used his "snow line" at the right time. That means something. He didn't think she was babbling nonsense. She was also surprised to be introduced as his 'important comrade'. At least I think so... We'll see I guess...


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
As for the Tabasco sauce line... I'll go right back and throw in the fact that her interruption was not on a 'I love you' line, but on a line that would have likely changed the entire mood of what Lelouch said. The way C.C. interrupted the moment leaves Kallen not knowing anything beyond that Lelouch asked her, and only her, to return with him to Ashford. Had C.C. not appeared, and Lelouch continued, Kallen would have likely been privy to Lelouch's plan which would have involved everyone not just her.
It wasn't interrupted on an 'I love you' line but it was on an 'I'. He might have wanted to reveal his plan. Or might have wanted to tell her how he wants to go back to all his friends, back to school. But they cut it at I. They wanted us to think it was something else (a love confession perhaps). I didn't fall for it, you didn't fall for it, but many did. After it had aired, lots of people were irritated by the fact that C.C. had interrupted them. Why interrupt it at I then? He could have started with is plan, and she could have stopped him then. What difference would it make? But I think it was done on purpose.


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I didn't say her wish was selfish, I said she was selfish and alone because of her wish. She's done selfish things to see the wish through, even if the wish turns out to be world peace, she's still forsaken people for the wish.
Same as Lelouch? So why does she have to be alone?


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
I could be mistaken, but neglecting something usually requires personal choice. One does not neglect to take care of an animal when they are incapacitated, one neglects to take care of said animal when they make a personal choice not to care for it.

She chose, for whatever reason, to turn her back on the Cult.
Maybe she neglected them and V.V. was able to take over? So she regrets that she didn't see it coming? And they ended up under V.V. We still don't know what she meant by neglect. We don't know what she was talking about. She even said as a leader, unlike V.V. she barely had any power. Like Lelouch could say "he killed Shirley", because he blames himself for geassing her, and bringing her into all this. But he didn't actually kill her.

Last edited by Asleep; 2008-07-14 at 15:44.
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Old 2008-07-14, 15:32   Link #1287
morbosfist
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When did he torture Lelouch with Nunanally's speech? He was following Lelouch, but that could be because he was worried about him. I think I am missing something here. Could you refresh my memory?
When lelouch is on the train, Rolo uses his Geass to break in and set the TVs to repeats of Nunnally's speech. He was deliberately trying to remind Lelouch of the thing that's making him depressed.
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Old 2008-07-14, 15:34   Link #1288
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When lelouch is on the train, Rolo uses his Geass to break in and set the TVs to repeats of Nunnally's speech. He was deliberately trying to remind Lelouch of the thing that's making him depressed.
thanks. I had completely forgotten about that!
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Old 2008-07-14, 18:18   Link #1289
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But isn't it possible that Kallen might switch sides? I am just throwing it there as a possibility. It could mean any of the things you listed, but it could also mean she leaves. Suzaku might fill her brain with some nonsense. It could also mean nothing and was just put there because she is one of the characters.
These most recent episodes put Kallen's connection to Lelouch on an entirely different level from any time in the past. She was ready to die to keep his secret, as such I do not see how one can go from: "I'm ready to die for you, Lelouch." to "I'm going to kill you, Lelouch." There is nothing Suzaku can say, especially now that he's trying to refrain her, that could possibly change her mind. If anything, it will make her hate Suzaku and Britannia all the more. Sure, she could leave Lelouch, but why would she? What would make her? Shirley's death? Even if Lelouch says "I killed Shirley." Red flags should fly up as to why he would ever do such a thing.

And again, the scene does not fit with Nina present as she's most definitely not going to betray Britannia.

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People show their concern in different ways. If a child falls, one parent might go and pick them up, while another might leave them alone because they want them to pick them self up, and thus grow stronger. Neither of them are wrong. Neither cared less. And like I said before, she was surprised to find him with the drug. It was not some information they already had. She happened to find him there. And you don't know how much C.C. knew. Don't tell me she has remote viewing or some other power. We are talking about what we know.
It is wrong when the second parent leaves that child to get up on its own in the middle of an intersection. Lelouch was not in some kindly position where your analogy would be applicable. He was at a crossroads where his life could go one of two ways, good or bad.

You trying to convince me that sitting on your ass and playfully tossing around a Zero mask is somehow comparable to going out and trying to find the person you're worried about. I'm sorry but common sense tells me that that does not make any sense at all.

(PS: Remote viewing, as you called it, was in C.C.'s defense. But if you want to drop it then fine, we can. Making her even less caring in that situation.)

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But he was still broken down after Kallen left. She only stopped him from taking the drug. She halted Rolo's plan temporarily, but after she left he was back to his old self.
No he wasn't. He was still depressed but in no way broken. That was Kallen's role to pick him back up. Once she left he started to run after her, Rolo stopped him. If you can tell me what broken people have the resolve to run after someone?

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Nothing has been developed so far. But it doesn't make the dialogue any less important. I think it's important, and will play out later. I mean, her snow speech was delivered in the previous episode. He remembered it, and used his "snow line" at the right time. That means something. He didn't think she was babbling nonsense. She was also surprised to be introduced as his 'important comrade'. At least I think so... We'll see I guess...
Fine, until anything actually becomes of it my point stands that as of now it has only foreshadowed Kallen's jealousy. If it ever turns out to mean anything, then come back and laugh at me. If not, then just remember what I said.

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It wasn't interrupted on an 'I love you' line but it was on an 'I'. He might have wanted to reveal his plan. Or might have wanted to tell her how he wants to go back to all his friends, back to school. But they cut it at I. They wanted us to think it was something else (a love confession perhaps). I didn't fall for it, you didn't fall for it, but many did. After it had aired, lots of people were irritated by the fact that C.C. had interrupted them. Why interrupt it at I then? He could have started with is plan, and she could have stopped him then. What difference would it make? But I think it was done on purpose.
Either situation that you described, hell any situation that could occur since he was never going to say "I Love You" would have diminished the impact of the event because it shifts it away from just Kallen. She interrupted at the wrong moment if it was out of jealousy, because it leaves Kallen hanging as the only thing Lelouch listed and with no reason other than that he just wants her to come back. To her, who by that point was most definitely head over heals for him, that means quite a bit.

The reason it was stopped like that was for the audience, and for Kallen. She's left hanging and so is the audience.

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Same as Lelouch? So why does she have to be alone?
Not the same, because Lelouch never forsook his friends and most of all Nunally. C.C. forsook everyone.

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Maybe she neglected them and V.V. was able to take over? So she regrets that she didn't see it coming? And they ended up under V.V. We still don't know what she meant by neglect. We don't know what she was talking about. She even said as a leader, unlike V.V. she barely had any power. Like Lelouch could say "he killed Shirley", because he blames himself for geassing her, and bringing her into all this. But he didn't actually kill her.
As I said, neglect is something one must make an open choice or decision for it to happen. You cannot neglect something if you have no control over a situation. Neglect is personal choice.

It is Lelouch's fault that Shirley died, to some degree, and that is simply him over blowing the point. He is overly self-critical about it. But as it stands, I do not see him ever saying that. He didn't say it this episode, he blamed the cult, he has no reason to blame himself after that.
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Old 2008-07-15, 02:09   Link #1290
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These most recent episodes put Kallen's connection to Lelouch on an entirely different level from any time in the past. She was ready to die to keep his secret, as such I do not see how one can go from: "I'm ready to die for you, Lelouch." to "I'm going to kill you, Lelouch." There is nothing Suzaku can say, especially now that he's trying to refrain her, that could possibly change her mind. If anything, it will make her hate Suzaku and Britannia all the more. Sure, she could leave Lelouch, but why would she? What would make her? Shirley's death? Even if Lelouch says "I killed Shirley." Red flags should fly up as to why he would ever do such a thing.

And again, the scene does not fit with Nina present as she's most definitely not going to betray Britannia.
He didn't refrain her yet. It ended there. He might be stopped by Nunnally or Kallen might start talking.

You don't know how she would react if Lelouch admitted to "killing Shirley". She ran away last time, when she found out Zero was Lelouch. It took her sometime to think it through and come back. In that time Lelouch had lost his memories. She is known to react impulsively. She can do the same again. She was already denying that Lelouch killed her. She could have thought 'maybe he had a reason' or 'I don't know the whole story'. But she refused to believe that Lelouch could ever do such a thing. In such a circumstance, it is very possible, if Lelouch goes "I killed Shirley", she might act without thinking again. Mind you, I am not saying she will not come back. But initially she could leave him.


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It is wrong when the second parent leaves that child to get up on its own in the middle of an intersection. Lelouch was not in some kindly position where your analogy would be applicable. He was at a crossroads where his life could go one of two ways, good or bad.

You trying to convince me that sitting on your ass and playfully tossing around a Zero mask is somehow comparable to going out and trying to find the person you're worried about. I'm sorry but common sense tells me that that does not make any sense at all.

(PS: Remote viewing, as you called it, was in C.C.'s defense. But if you want to drop it then fine, we can. Making her even less caring in that situation.)
But you are not looking at it from the second parent's point of view. They aren't leaving the child alone because they don't care. It's a different way of showing concern. It doesn't make it wrong. It might be wrong for you, but it's not really wrong.

You said C.C. might have already known how miserable Lelouch was and still chose to stay. That is why I brought up remote viewing. I was defending her. We have no knowledge of her possessing such a power. They didn't know how bad his condition was. Kallen only found out when she found him with refrain. At first, she had only gone to talk to him, but ended up finding him with refrain. She was pretty shocked herself.

If you heard what she was talking about while tossing the zero mask, you would see that she was trying to act professional and uncaring. She doesn't like to display her emotions. She is trying not to get attached to Lelouch. She doesn't want anything personal in her contractual relationship. She is completely different compared to Kallen. Of course she would act differently.




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No he wasn't. He was still depressed but in no way broken. That was Kallen's role to pick him back up. Once she left he started to run after her, Rolo stopped him. If you can tell me what broken people have the resolve to run after someone?
He tried to go after her, because he realised what he had done was contemptible. He had hurt a friend. It was instinct to go after her. But when Rolo arrived he went back to being depressed. Couldn't he have left Rolo and gone after her if he was a little better?

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Fine, until anything actually becomes of it my point stands that as of now it has only foreshadowed Kallen's jealousy. If it ever turns out to mean anything, then come back and laugh at me. If not, then just remember what I said.
Alright or you can laugh at me

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Either situation that you described, hell any situation that could occur since he was never going to say "I Love You" would have diminished the impact of the event because it shifts it away from just Kallen. She interrupted at the wrong moment if it was out of jealousy, because it leaves Kallen hanging as the only thing Lelouch listed and with no reason other than that he just wants her to come back. To her, who by that point was most definitely head over heals for him, that means quite a bit.

The reason it was stopped like that was for the audience, and for Kallen. She's left hanging and so is the audience.
True. They like teasing us. It was nothing but it was made to look like something.


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Not the same, because Lelouch never forsook his friends and most of all Nunally. C.C. forsook everyone.
Not in the first season. It was only for Nunally then. It doesn't seem like C.C. had any friends. Mao needed her, but she never made any friends. Now she seems to get along with the order as well. Remember she was happy when Lelouch decided to rescue Kallen. She might be changing along with Lelouch.


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As I said, neglect is something one must make an open choice or decision for it to happen. You cannot neglect something if you have no control over a situation. Neglect is personal choice.

It is Lelouch's fault that Shirley died, to some degree, and that is simply him over blowing the point. He is overly self-critical about it. But as it stands, I do not see him ever saying that. He didn't say it this episode, he blamed the cult, he has no reason to blame himself after that.
I said if he said something like that. If he does, it could be because he blames himself, not because he really killed her. In the same manner we don't know what C.C. meant by neglecting the cult. She might also have been overly self-critical. In that episode she also said V.V. is an actual leader, while she had just been a figurehead. I wonder how much power she really had.

I see we have been the only ones to have posted in this thread recently!
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Old 2008-07-15, 07:28   Link #1291
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He didn't refrain her yet. It ended there. He might be stopped by Nunnally or Kallen might start talking.

You don't know how she would react if Lelouch admitted to "killing Shirley". She ran away last time, when she found out Zero was Lelouch. It took her sometime to think it through and come back. In that time Lelouch had lost his memories. She is known to react impulsively. She can do the same again. She was already denying that Lelouch killed her. She could have thought 'maybe he had a reason' or 'I don't know the whole story'. But she refused to believe that Lelouch could ever do such a thing. In such a circumstance, it is very possible, if Lelouch goes "I killed Shirley", she might act without thinking again. Mind you, I am not saying she will not come back. But initially she could leave him.
It's quite evidant that this point is pointless to continue discussing. No matter how much I offer you, you're going to keep throwing what ifs back at me. As I've said, anything is always possible, but none of what you mentioned have been getting developed, in fact the opposite is what's been getting developed.

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But you are not looking at it from the second parent's point of view. They aren't leaving the child alone because they don't care. It's a different way of showing concern. It doesn't make it wrong. It might be wrong for you, but it's not really wrong.
What? So, basically, she shows her caring by allowing her child to struggle to their feet in a busy intersection? /forehead.

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You said C.C. might have already known how miserable Lelouch was and still chose to stay. That is why I brought up remote viewing. I was defending her. We have no knowledge of her possessing such a power. They didn't know how bad his condition was. Kallen only found out when she found him with refrain. At first, she had only gone to talk to him, but ended up finding him with refrain. She was pretty shocked herself.
If Kallen has some idea I do not see how you can possibly say that C.C. does not have the same feeling. She's known Lelouch far longer and far better and yet couldn't make the connection? If that's the case, then Kallen most certainly cares about Lelouch more than C.C..

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If you heard what she was talking about while tossing the zero mask, you would see that she was trying to act professional and uncaring. She doesn't like to display her emotions. She is trying not to get attached to Lelouch. She doesn't want anything personal in her contractual relationship. She is completely different compared to Kallen. Of course she would act differently.
What made you think it was acting? The thought never even crossed my mind in that scene, she seemed quite open with Marianne even to the point of joking with her about the situation.

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He tried to go after her, because he realised what he had done was contemptible. He had hurt a friend. It was instinct to go after her. But when Rolo arrived he went back to being depressed. Couldn't he have left Rolo and gone after her if he was a little better?
Instinct is an instantaneous response. Lelouch clearly reflected for a moment before chasing after her, hence the pause. The reason he stopped then is because of what Rolo said. A person just begining to make his way out of depression is easily influenced.

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Not in the first season. It was only for Nunally then. It doesn't seem like C.C. had any friends. Mao needed her, but she never made any friends. Now she seems to get along with the order as well. Remember she was happy when Lelouch decided to rescue Kallen. She might be changing along with Lelouch.
He went far out of his way for Suzaku, Shirley, Kallen, the Academy and so on. He never forsook any of his friends.

C.C. might be happy to see Lelouch go after Kallen because it: Moves him towards someone other than herself for support, Kallen is her friend, she wants Lelouch to find someone, etc... Heck, for all we know, she may have set Marianne up with Charles and this may be a parallel for her.

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I said if he said something like that. If he does, it could be because he blames himself, not because he really killed her. In the same manner we don't know what C.C. meant by neglecting the cult. She might also have been overly self-critical. In that episode she also said V.V. is an actual leader, while she had just been a figurehead. I wonder how much power she really had.

I see we have been the only ones to have posted in this thread recently!
If he says it, I'd expect Kallen to question him. That is what her character development this season has been all about. Understand Lelouch but not following him without her own thought, differentiating her from last season's Kallen.

Or C.C. might have been honest, we don't know but past occurences (read: Mao) make me doubt her being self-critical of what she was saying because it was, to a point, an apology and that is usually when the truth is revealed in this show.
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Old 2008-07-15, 08:11   Link #1292
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Does anyone think that maybe C.C. and Marianne had the same type of relationship as V.V. and Charles have? My reasoning is that in the flashback at the beginning of episode 14, it shows Marianne and C.C. sitting by a lake looking as if they had just been riding horses together, then it shows Charles and V.V. off watching them.
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Old 2008-07-15, 09:09   Link #1293
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Her past begs even more for her to just die. I'd prefer she be free of Geass and immortality and get the chance to just live a normal life unhampered by some contract, but that's too much to even consider to any large degree.
I really don't see why you insist on being so depressing. >.> If she had Geass then maybe she managed to fulfill her end of the contract and therefore became an immortal witch? Lelouch if anything is on a good road to turn out just like her.
"If you're a witch then I'll be a warlock!"
XD Said with determination.

Therefore, C.CXLulu 4evah~ (literally)

:P Cheer up Dann, I mean look at the angsty wonder that is the beautiful first CLAMP pic of the second R2 ending. Isn't it pretty? I can't look away *.*
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Old 2008-07-15, 09:13   Link #1294
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I really don't see why you insist on being so depressing. >.> If she had Geass then maybe she managed to fulfill her end of the contract and therefore became an immortal witch? Lelouch if anything is on a good road to turn out just like her.
"If you're a witch then I'll be a warlock!"
XD Said with determination.

Therefore, C.CXLulu 4evah~ (literally)

:P Cheer up Dann, I mean look at the angsty wonder that is the beautiful first CLAMP pic of the second R2 ending. Isn't it pretty? I can't look away *.*
On your sig: I wonder what is Suzaku's relationship with C.C.. It's one of those things that better get some air-time soon.
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Old 2008-07-15, 09:33   Link #1295
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On your sig: I wonder what is Suzaku's relationship with C.C.. It's one of those things that better get some air-time soon.
Indeed. Clearly he's much more like Lelouch than an of us thought. The whole thing in which he can see C.C's projection of her hologram. This surely means something. XD I would love to see an AU in which Suzaku is the one granted Geass while Lelouch is the one who has to change the world from within. Because, honestly, without the Geass, was there ever any other choice for him but to keep his head bowed low to Britannia? I also wonder if it would ever occur to C.C that she might have picked the wrong guy? XD I mean, I'm holding my breath for some huge WTF-inducing revelations in the few next episodes. :P

I also think her wish definitely had something to do with eradicating the power of Geass completely as Lelouch is attempting now to do. There was just something about this in ep14. I can't shake the feeling that's what she was trying to say before shooting her ex-disciples who were attempting the emergency escape train route.

Oh and BTW, why can't I c my own siggy ^^;?
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Old 2008-07-15, 11:20   Link #1296
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It's quite evidant that this point is pointless to continue discussing. No matter how much I offer you, you're going to keep throwing what ifs back at me. As I've said, anything is always possible, but none of what you mentioned have been getting developed, in fact the opposite is what's been getting developed.
I was showing you that it is her character to behave that way. She reacts quickly. Hence it is possible, because that part of her character has already been developed. She is more emotional than analytical. We have seen it many times already. When she thought her mother was shallow to live like a maid in her own house. When she left Zero. She doesn't think immediately. That is why I said it was possible. I wasn't pulling out some impossibility, it is a character trait.


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What? So, basically, she shows her caring by allowing her child to struggle to their feet in a busy intersection? /forehead.
Yes. why don't you get that people care in different ways? Maybe she wanted him to comeback on her own.

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If Kallen has some idea I do not see how you can possibly say that C.C. does not have the same feeling. She's known Lelouch far longer and far better and yet couldn't make the connection? If that's the case, then Kallen most certainly cares about Lelouch more than C.C.
She probably had some idea. But Kallen also did not know how bad his state was (using refrain), until she saw him in person. She starts the conversation with something else, and suddenly sees the drug.


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What made you think it was acting? The thought never even crossed my mind in that scene, she seemed quite open with Marianne even to the point of joking with her about the situation.
She is. She said all that matters is the contract. She doesn't care if he is alright as long as he is alive. Yet she was happy to see him return to the order. He words are lies, look at what she does. She smiles. She doesn't want to get personally involved with him so she keeps her distance, but it is not working. That is why she keeps denying anything more to her relationship. She keeps repeating, it's just a contract. People usually repeat the same thing to convince themselves more than other people(like Dann does ).


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Instinct is an instantaneous response. Lelouch clearly reflected for a moment before chasing after her, hence the pause. The reason he stopped then is because of what Rolo said. A person just begining to make his way out of depression is easily influenced.
So he was influenced easily. Either way, what Kallen did didn't last. The fireworks scene was what worked.


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He went far out of his way for Suzaku, Shirley, Kallen, the Academy and so on. He never forsook any of his friends.

C.C. might be happy to see Lelouch go after Kallen because it: Moves him towards someone other than herself for support, Kallen is her friend, she wants Lelouch to find someone, etc... Heck, for all we know, she may have set Marianne up with Charles and this may be a parallel for her.

I wonder how many friends C.C. has had. There is Marianne, but we don't know about any one else. I think she hasn't been around many people she cared for. Like with the OotBK now.

Kallen is her friend, that is why she was happy he chose to go after her. Also she sees Lelouch taking a more human decision, rather than a practical one which Zero would take.

But I don't know if she is setting Kallen and Lelouch up. We'll have to see more for that.


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If he says it, I'd expect Kallen to question him. That is what her character development this season has been all about. Understand Lelouch but not following him without her own thought, differentiating her from last season's Kallen.
She acted quite impulsively when she ran out to fight Xingke and got captured. I am saying it is her character - she acts first, thinks later.


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Or C.C. might have been honest, we don't know but past occurences (read: Mao) make me doubt her being self-critical of what she was saying because it was, to a point, an apology and that is usually when the truth is revealed in this show.
But if she didn't have much power over them how could she have neglected them? Maybe there is more to it than what meets the eye.

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Old 2008-07-15, 12:03   Link #1297
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I was showing you that it is her character to behave that way. She reacts quickly. Hence it is possible, because that part of her character has already been developed. She is more emotional than analytical. We have seen it many times already. When she thought her mother was shallow to live like a maid in her own house. When she left Zero. She doesn't think immediately. That is why I said it was possible. I wasn't pulling out some impossibility, it is a character trait.
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She acted quite impulsively when she ran out to fight Xingke and got captured. I am saying it is her character - she acts first, thinks later.
These are similar so I'll address them simultaneously.

Her actions in every episode except Episode 10 in S2 had been portrayed as more thought out than before. Notably, Episode 2 when she confront Lelouch. That is no impulse, impulse is following his orders as the rest of the Order did without question. She made a thought out decision to confront him.

Also, as I said, Ep.10 was the culmination of her jealousy of C.C.. She acted impulsively due to extenuating circumstances. She wanted Lelouch to recognize her, to be in the spotlight, to take it from C.C.. She acted impulsively because of her heart and as its said, a trembling heart often sways a sound mind. As such your example falls short because she was being heavily influenced by her emotions rather than cognitive thought.

Changing sides, for instance, is not an emotional decision. It is something one must rationalize to themselves to undergo. People do not just switch sides for shits and giggles (this isn't GS). Especially not after what has just happened to her in Ep.14. She does not make rash decisions in situations where she has the ability to think a decision over, that much has been shown to have changed about her in S2 from being around Lelouch and C.C.. She's growing up, believe it or not.

The only thing that is even remotely possible, and I can see happening, that comes into line with your examples has to deal with Shirley. If, and really only if, Lelouch admits to killing Shirley, then she may very well leave him to sort out her mind. This is, of course, assuming they plan on undermining what they focused on building all of S2... again. It is possible, yes, but I do not find it probable. Even if Lelouch says "I Killed Shirley." She should stop and think and figure out why, of all people, Lelouch would kill Shirley. He'd have no reason and she should very much question him.

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Yes. why don't you get that people care in different ways? Maybe she wanted him to comeback on her own.
Because hap hazardous manners of caring, in my eyes, are about as low as one can go in the Romance scale. She cares for him to see him become strong without her, if anything, that's even more reason to believe that she will at some point leave him.

That is the difference, Kallen is being built as Lelouch's new pillar even to the point of throwing all of the shit of Ep.13 and 14 on him 'coincidentally' when she's not present. C.C. is being distanced from Lelouch and being brought closer to the Geass and her own wish.

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She probably had some idea. But Kallen also did not know how bad his state was (using refrain), until she saw him in person. She starts the conversation with something else, and suddenly sees the drug.
Doesn't matter if they did or did not know about the refrain, one of them went to make sure he was ok, the other did not. That is my point. One went out of her way to make sure that nothing bad was happening to him, and ended up saving him from a devil, while the other just twiddled her thumbs.

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She is. She said all that matters is the contract. She doesn't care if he is alright as long as he is alive. Yet she was happy to see him return to the order. He words are lies, look at what she does. She smiles. She doesn't want to get personally involved with him so she keeps her distance, but it is not working. That is why she keeps denying anything more to her relationship. She keeps repeating, it's just a contract. People usually repeat the same thing to convince themselves more than other people(like Dann does ).
No, you assume her words are lies. Nothing in this show has yet to show her lying to us. If you are going to doubt what she says there, then maybe I'll start questioning whether she didn't like about Lelouch being the only one to have thanked her.

She hasn't repeated its just a contract in ages. In fact, she didn't repeat it in her conversation with Marianne. All that she said is that he only needs to be alive for her contract, she didn't dismiss their relationship as just that.

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So he was influenced easily. Either way, what Kallen did didn't last. The fireworks scene was what worked.
Um... Kallen's action lasted because he wasn't doping up on Refrain ten seconds later. Come on, how obvious do I have to make this?

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I wonder how many friends C.C. has had. There is Marianne, but we don't know about any one else. I think she hasn't been around many people she cared for. Like with the OotBK now.
I'd say her friends, at this point, amount to: Marianne and Kallen. Mao was her friend at some point as well. She's likely had a few.

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Kallen is her friend, that is why she was happy he chose to go after her. Also she sees Lelouch taking a more human decision, rather than a practical one which Zero would take.

But I don't know if she is setting Kallen and Lelouch up. We'll have to see more for that.
I'm under the impression that she is trying to do it, which is compounded by her hedgehog nature and progressive distancing from Lelouch. If her wish succeeds, then more likely than not, Lelouch will be without her.

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But if she didn't have much power over them how could she have neglected them? Maybe there is more to it than what meets the eye.
If she says neglect then she made the choice to neglect them. Again, I will repeat this, neglect is a personal choice. One does not neglect something that is outside his power. Neglect requires full control of a situation to be applicable. It is free choice to neglect something, not a forced action. That is neither neglect nor abandonment, that is powerlessness.
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Old 2008-07-15, 12:38   Link #1298
Asleep
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These are similar so I'll address them simultaneously.

Her actions in every episode except Episode 10 in S2 had been portrayed as more thought out than before. Notably, Episode 2 when she confront Lelouch. That is no impulse, impulse is following his orders as the rest of the Order did without question. She made a thought out decision to confront him.

Also, as I said, Ep.10 was the culmination of her jealousy of C.C.. She acted impulsively due to extenuating circumstances. She wanted Lelouch to recognize her, to be in the spotlight, to take it from C.C.. She acted impulsively because of her heart and as its said, a trembling heart often sways a sound mind. As such your example falls short because she was being heavily influenced by her emotions rather than cognitive thought.

Changing sides, for instance, is not an emotional decision. It is something one must rationalize to themselves to undergo. People do not just switch sides for shits and giggles (this isn't GS). Especially not after what has just happened to her in Ep.14. She does not make rash decisions in situations where she has the ability to think a decision over, that much has been shown to have changed about her in S2 from being around Lelouch and C.C.. She's growing up, believe it or not.

The only thing that is even remotely possible, and I can see happening, that comes into line with your examples has to deal with Shirley. If, and really only if, Lelouch admits to killing Shirley, then she may very well leave him to sort out her mind. This is, of course, assuming they plan on undermining what they focused on building all of S2... again. It is possible, yes, but I do not find it probable. Even if Lelouch says "I Killed Shirley." She should stop and think and figure out why, of all people, Lelouch would kill Shirley. He'd have no reason and she should very much question him.
For the confrontation in episode 1, she had a whole year to think it out.

I don't think she thinks it out right away. She needs time for the information to sink in, to start to question herself. It's not about growing up, it's how she works. If she is too shocked and believes it she might leave temporarily. Lets leave this until we get anymore information. We are going in circles.


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Because hap hazardous manners of caring, in my eyes, are about as low as one can go in the Romance scale. She cares for him to see him become strong without her, if anything, that's even more reason to believe that she will at some point leave him.

That is the difference, Kallen is being built as Lelouch's new pillar even to the point of throwing all of the shit of Ep.13 and 14 on him 'coincidentally' when she's not present. C.C. is being distanced from Lelouch and being brought closer to the Geass and her own wish.
How is she his new pillar when she isn't even close to him? I didn't get what you meant about eps 13, 14.


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Doesn't matter if they did or did not know about the refrain, one of them went to make sure he was ok, the other did not. That is my point. One went out of her way to make sure that nothing bad was happening to him, and ended up saving him from a devil, while the other just twiddled her thumbs.
I keep repeating, it's because two people don't act the same way. C.C. is trying not to get involved with him, while Kallen has no such problem.

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No, you assume her words are lies. Nothing in this show has yet to show her lying to us. If you are going to doubt what she says there, then maybe I'll start questioning whether she didn't like about Lelouch being the only one to have thanked her.

She hasn't repeated its just a contract in ages. In fact, she didn't repeat it in her conversation with Marianne. All that she said is that he only needs to be alive for her contract, she didn't dismiss their relationship as just that.
If you start to doubt about her being happy about him thanking her, then I don't even know watch you are watching. She was happy, there is no doubt about it.

She said it in the last episode. something like "I don't think so, I am just worried about the contract". If all that mattered was for him to stay alive, why was she happy when he returned to the order?



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Um... Kallen's action lasted because he wasn't doping up on Refrain ten seconds later. Come on, how obvious do I have to make this?
I never said it wasn't important. But it doesn't make it more important than the fireworks scene. Why can't both be important? After all, both played a big part in Lelouch's recovery. Without either of them he wouldn't have returned.



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I'd say her friends, at this point, amount to: Marianne and Kallen. Mao was her friend at some point as well. She's likely had a few.
Mao was like her kid. He also needed her all the time. Big difference. She is changing now, but I don't think she was surrounded by many friends before. The time spent with the OotBK has affected her positively.



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I'm under the impression that she is trying to do it, which is compounded by her hedgehog nature and progressive distancing from Lelouch. If her wish succeeds, then more likely than not, Lelouch will be without her.
I hope not. I don't want her to die. What a cliché.


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Originally Posted by Var View Post
If she says neglect then she made the choice to neglect them. Again, I will repeat this, neglect is a personal choice. One does not neglect something that is outside his power. Neglect requires full control of a situation to be applicable. It is free choice to neglect something, not a forced action. That is neither neglect nor abandonment, that is powerlessness.
Unless you know in what context it was used you can't be sure. She could have meant something else entirely. She might have been too hard on herself. She didn't want to kill them. So she is blaming herself.
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Old 2008-07-15, 12:46   Link #1299
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How is she his new pillar when she isn't even close to him? I didn't get what you meant about eps 13, 14.
She's closer to him than the other members of the Ashford student council, and he treats all of them as being important to him. Saying things like "Don't do anything stupid. Sit tight. I'll definitely rescue you" and "I will definitely... I will definitely retrieve Kallen with my own hands" mean nothing to you?

And the thing about eps 13 and 14, it's strangely convenient for Lelouch to suddenly be given a little karmic retribution and go heavily off the deep end as soon as Kallen gets captured.
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Old 2008-07-15, 13:01   Link #1300
ZeroSama
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She's closer to him than the other members of the Ashford student council, and he treats all of them as being important to him. Saying things like "Don't do anything stupid. Sit tight. I'll definitely rescue you" and "I will definitely... I will definitely retrieve Kallen with my own hands" mean nothing to you?

And the thing about eps 13 and 14, it's strangely convenient for Lelouch to suddenly be given a little karmic retribution and go heavily off the deep end as soon as Kallen gets captured.
Yes she and Nunnally are Lulu's emergency brake when he starts sliding down the slippery slope to hell.
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