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View Poll Results: Sasuke.........
He is still as cool now as he was before. Sasuke for life! 55 16.87%
Give the guy some slack, after all his entire family was murdered 56 17.18%
Never liked him, never hated him 81 24.85%
Yeah, I am beginning to hate him now. 45 13.80%
Sasuke deserves to die! A.S.S for life! 89 27.30%
Voters: 326. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-07-15, 13:30   Link #221
SpyderSidiouss
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Saskue is still retarded. He is going to try and destroy something that his brother worked so hard to protect.
here we go, we got us another one. last time i remember hes not trying to destroy the village, just danzo and his groupies, looks like you have to re-read the manga.
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Old 2008-07-15, 13:48   Link #222
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I find it a bit odd that he's hooking up with Akatsuki. Madara did help wipe out the Uchiha Clan with Itachi, regardless of who gave the orders. One would think he would take out Madara and then go after Konoha. How is capturing the 8-tails going to help Sasuke and his team powerup enough to get to the Konoha elders and Danzou? It's not like Madara is training him ala Oro.

Unless Sasuke has some plan, what he's doing now doesn't make sense when you compare it with the things he's done in the past...mainly not hurting or killing the innocent.
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Old 2008-07-15, 14:01   Link #223
Keroko
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Originally Posted by SpyderSidiouss View Post
here we go, we got us another one. last time i remember hes not trying to destroy the village, just danzo and his groupies, looks like you have to re-read the manga.
That's funny, because last time I read chapter 402, Sasuke clearly said that Hawk's only purpose was, and I quote: "The complete and utter destruction of the leaf."

Please tell me where he said that he was only going after Danzou and his groupies, because I totally missed that page.

That being said, I don't hate Sasuke per se, however I am irked that his development, both powerwise and personallitywise, is leaps beyond Naruto's, the titular character. The fact that his eyes turned the Kyuubi into a helpless little puppy did not endear me to him either.
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Old 2008-07-15, 14:01   Link #224
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LOL! His actions aren’t even close to the worst actions done in the manga…. But I bet you probably a fan of some of the most evil people manga… maybe you just hate the guy because of his recent POWER UPS, like the rest of the haters because he makes naruto look like nothing. You guys need to stop letting hate cloud your minds.
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Originally Posted by Endrance View Post
About sasuke people seem to get more pissed at him the more he gets stronger than naruto

lol, well, well, well… It appears I'm not the only one going "insane".

I’ve always believed that most of the anti-Sasuke crowds were “anti-Sasuke” mostly because he has surpassed naruto by an increasingly wide margin after part I. During part I Sasuke has more or less always maintained a lead on naruto however; it was at least appeared debatable. Of course, if such an issue is debatable, viewers will certainly pick their favorite between the two as the strongest; at times even completely disregarding, of course, the manga’s message, and the multitude of times Sasuke has been confirmed as a genius that is more talented and thus can usually outpace naruto in regards to learning. However, now that the gap no longer appears debatable and they can no longer pick their favored character, they are upset and thus resent Sasuke (and/or the author) because of it. This is most probably due to viewers misconstruing facts to fit their ideas when it should actually be the other way around.

I am, of course, referring to the majority, based on what I’ve been seeing; and you can call me the therapist type of warrior; however, in the past, there were actually a few members who have admitted to this (and lets just say my intuition tells me there are many, many more that are just denying it).

I find it interesting that when asked why they dislike Sasuke, most posters have claimed it’s because of certain actions of his (which appears to be the most practical excuse for one to create in this case), when there are people who have committed crimes far worse than Sasuke ever has, and interestingly enough, I’ve never seen any posters bashing those characters (not to mention the results of the “least fav. Character” thread). What’s also very interesting is that in almost every Sasuke bashing post, there is a reference to his and naruto’s gap in power; in fact, I don’t see many posts complaining about Sasuke’s actions at all, it’s mostly all been about his alleged “overpowered state.”
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Old 2008-07-15, 15:18   Link #225
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I. During part I Sasuke has more or less always maintained a lead on naruto however; it was at least appeared debatable.
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this. After all, one of Sasuke's motivations for leaving Konoha was because Naruto was beginning to surpass him.

I think that is the real source for all the hate, not that 'the gap has become more apparant' as you put it, but more that the gap, which had finally been bridged, was blown wide open again. There is also no small amount of frustration that where Sasuke got all sorts of cool powers and abillities (and rightfully so, let there be no mistake about that) Naruto got... nothing. Maybe a Kyuubi-chakra powered Rasengan, but that was something which, really, we had already seen pre-timeskip.

This ticked of a lot of people, Naruto is the titular character after all, what the hell was he doing with Jiraiya those three years? Sasuke even had some decent personallity development, no longer screaming and charging in on Itachi, but calmly trying to maintain the upper hand. Naruto? No such personal development, at least not that I have spotted. I know that, while I don't outright hate Sasuke, my frustrations with the manga are partially because Sasuke gets prior treatment on both power and personallity development. Nothing wrong with that, but why didn't Naruto get any of that?

Which brings me to the next point: Sasuke's 'superiority as a genius' every time a discussion is raised, the Sasuke supporters say 'he's a genius, he's supposed to be beyond Naruto' but lets not forget that Naruto is hardly less of a genius, if in his own way. He learned Kage Bunshin, a forbidden technique, in a matter of hours. His progression in the tree-climbing exersize was equal to Sasuke's. He mastered the Rasengan, which took Jiraiya, a sannin genius, several months to get down, in less then a month. During his Fuuton training, he progressed beyond what Kakashi expected, even with the Kage Bunshin helping him. No, Naruto is definetely a genius himself. Once people take the time and spend some atention to him, his progression becomes enormous. Being a genius is not an advantage Sasuke has, at least not enough to lord over him.
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Old 2008-07-15, 16:05   Link #226
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Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this. After all, one of Sasuke's motivations for leaving Konoha was because Naruto was beginning to surpass him.
I'm not sure its that simple. It wasnt that naruto himself was getting stronger it was his feeling that he himself was staying the same and not getting to the level to take on Itachi
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Old 2008-07-15, 16:18   Link #227
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I'm not sure its that simple. It wasnt that naruto himself was getting stronger it was his feeling that he himself was staying the same and not getting to the level to take on Itachi
How is that any different from Naruto surpassing him? Naruto was getting stronger while he himself felt that he didn't progress that much. That reads 'Naruto was surpassing Sasuke' to me.

The best example is probably still the fight on top of the hospital. Sasuke's Chidori punched a hole in the tank while Naruto's Rasengan completely tore open the back, to Sasuke that was a clear sign that Naruto was beginning to surpass him.
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Old 2008-07-15, 16:27   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
How is that any different from Naruto surpassing him? Naruto was getting stronger while he himself felt that he didn't progress that much. That reads 'Naruto was surpassing Sasuke' to me.

The best example is probably still the fight on top of the hospital.
Naruto's exponential rise in strength and ability was, more than anything, the straw that broke the camels back, but it is not the reason why Sasuke left. Rather, the true reason he left was due to his own feeling of inadequacy, not in regards to Naruto, but in regards to Itachi. Their meeting forced Sasuke to believe that the path he was following with Team 7 was incorrect, which led to Sasuke defecting/running away (whether or not he is a missing-nin is a debate for another day) from the village. Naruto was simply the avenue by which Sasuke could unleash his own personal hatred (hatred towards himself as well as Itachi) , but Naruto was not the reason for said hatred or inadequacy.
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Old 2008-07-15, 17:10   Link #229
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Well, I did say Naruto surpassing him was one of the reasons Sasuke left, I never said it was the reason, did I?
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Old 2008-07-15, 18:46   Link #230
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Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with this. After all, one of Sasuke's motivations for leaving Konoha was because Naruto was beginning to surpass him.
This is false. Sasuke has always viewed Itachi as a standard by which he judges himself; even before the Uchiha massacre, he was constantly concerned with filling his brother’s shoes and one day surpassing him. Needless to say, during his time in Kohona, he was concerned with nothing else but gaining power to fight Itachi (although his friendship with Sakura and naruto began to slow his motivation somewhat). Because he learned a lot and had gotten stronger he thought he had a chance against his brother, but was thoroughly humiliated when he attempted to engage Itachi; this is what began his considerable dissatisfaction with his training at Kohona, and in himself. Sasuke began to believe that his training was inadequate and that he was not exerting himself enough – the rooftop incident was simply a reinforcing development to his dissatisfaction since he has always maintained a very noticeable lead from naruto before. If the roof top incident never happened, I believe that Sasuke would have still left the village eventually. In fact I doubt the rooftop incident should be called a reason at all since the only bearing it had on Sasuke's decision was accelerating it; the real reason was the gap between him and Itachi.

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I think that is the real source for all the hate, not that 'the gap has become more apparant' as you put it, but more that the gap, which had finally been bridged, was blown wide open again.
It was blown wide open, thus making it unmistakably apparent.

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There is also no small amount of frustration that where Sasuke got all sorts of cool powers and abillities (and rightfully so, let there be no mistake about that) Naruto got... nothing. Maybe a Kyuubi-chakra powered Rasengan, but that was something which, really, we had already seen pre-timeskip.
This ticked of a lot of people, Naruto is the titular character after all, what the hell was he doing with Jiraiya those three years? Sasuke even had some decent personallity development, no longer screaming and charging in on Itachi, but calmly trying to maintain the upper hand. Naruto? No such personal development, at least not that I have spotted. I know that, while I don't outright hate Sasuke, my frustrations with the manga are partially because Sasuke gets prior treatment on both power and personallity development. Nothing wrong with that, but why didn't Naruto get any of that?
Being the main character doesn’t mean they absolutely have to receive priority; in fact, that would probably make things rather boring and cliché. And, quite honestly, I think it’s a bit childish to constantly complain about which character receives which power up first, or which power up has whatever weakness, etc. The story is about determination and heart winning against talent, and we’ve been shown all too many times who is in which role, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise as to who will appear to receive all the “goodies” first or quicker.
Also, in regards to personality development, Sasuke has not changed much at all in my opinion… And, especially while engaged in combat, his demeanor didn’t need much improvement to begin with. Even though Sasuke did indeed charge and scream at Itachi during their early encounter, that was never his usual demeanor during combat, he usually assumed a much more tactful and reserved approach; that is probably the only battle where he acted so rash. With that said, your claim of his personality development is inconclusive.

Naruto on the other hand, has actually gained noticeable personality development in part II; and he should have, considering he needed it the most. However, at the same time I wouldn’t expect him to have a similar demeanor to someone like Neji or Shikamaru during combat; that is just not who he is, he has a very explosive personality, and people like that are needed (not just for the village, but also for the diversity of the characters in the manga). He is however, considerably less of an asshole than he used to be, so your claim of naruto’s lack of personality development is also inconclusive.

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Which brings me to the next point: Sasuke's 'superiority as a genius' every time a discussion is raised, the Sasuke supporters say 'he's a genius, he's supposed to be beyond Naruto' but lets not forget that Naruto is hardly less of a genius, if in his own way. He learned Kage Bunshin, a forbidden technique, in a matter of hours. His progression in the tree-climbing exersize was equal to Sasuke's. He mastered the Rasengan, which took Jiraiya, a sannin genius, several months to get down, in less then a month. During his Fuuton training, he progressed beyond what Kakashi expected, even with the Kage Bunshin helping him. No, Naruto is definetely a genius himself. Once people take the time and spend some atention to him, his progression becomes enormous. Being a genius is not an advantage Sasuke has, at least not enough to lord over him.
This is an excellent example of what I mentioned in my earlier post: “misconstruing facts to fit ideas, when it should be the other way around.” It appears you are a naruto fan, so obviously you will favor naruto and thus use his accomplishments of impressive feats to contrive an idea or theory of him actually being a genius despite the manga clearly stating otherwise numerous times. Obviously naruto is pretty above average, however that does not warrant labeling him as a genius; the author’s writing is also partly to blame for this because, there are certain inconsistencies with the characters labeled “geniuses” during their childhood, however that is a debate for another thread. Also, despite Sasuke being a genius it is still possible for naruto to keep up with him(even though he is not a genius) since he has the appropriate amount of heart and tenacity; which of course, happens to be the cardinal message of the story.

This idea also parallels in many facets of life, I'll give an example in one particular facet: in boxing there are many cases where a naturally talented boxer is bested by an aggressive, hungry, and unorthodox challenger who possessed an unfaltering resolve to win the title. Even though the champion may have been beaten, he is still more naturally talented and still possesses more of an adeptness for the sport than the challenger. If you do not agree with this example, then there is really no point to even respond to this paragraph and we should just agree to disagree; however, this final point of yours, is also inconclusive.

Also, in regards to the bold text in the quote... Jiraiya was not a genius; and you don't have to be a genius to become great - another cardinal message of the manga.
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Old 2008-07-15, 19:19   Link #231
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This is false. Sasuke has always viewed Itachi as a standard by which he judges himself; even before the Uchiha massacre, he was constantly concerned with filling his brother’s shoes and one day surpassing him. Needless to say, during his time in Kohona, he was concerned with nothing else but gaining power to fight Itachi (although his friendship with Sakura and naruto began to slow his motivation somewhat). Because he learned a lot and had gotten stronger he thought he had a chance against his brother, but was thoroughly humiliated when he attempted to engage Itachi; this is what began his considerable dissatisfaction with his training at Kohona, and in himself. Sasuke began to believe that his training was inadequate and that he was not exerting himself enough – the rooftop incident was simply a reinforcing development to his dissatisfaction since he has always maintained a very noticeable lead from naruto before. If the roof top incident never happened, I believe that Sasuke would have still left the village eventually.
Naruto surpassing Sasuke was very much part of the reason for Sasuke's frustration. Because Naruto surpassed him Sasuke felt that he wasn't progressing enough. The fight with Gaara, the battle on the rooftop, these were key elements that showed Naruto surpassing Sasuke. The rooftop battle especially shows Sasuke's frustration, he wanted to show that he was stronger, that he was progressing. But Naruto had bested him, Naruto had grown farther then he had, which frustrated him.

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It was blown wide open, thus making it unmistakably apparent.
The difference here is that you say the gap was never closed, while the various scenes of Naruto making actions where Sasuke could not, such as the already mentioned Gaara battle or rooftop battle, contradict this.

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Being the main character doesn’t mean they absolutely have to receive priority; in fact, that would probably make things rather boring and cliché. And, quite honestly, I think it’s a bit childish to constantly complain about which character receives which power up first, or which power up has whatever weakness, etc. The story is about determination and heart winning against talent, and we’ve been shown all too many times who is in which role, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise as to who will appear to receive all the “goodies” first or quicker.
Priority? No. But when a character returns from a 3 year training mission with empty hands, that gets on peoples nerves.

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Also, in regards to personality development, Sasuke has not changed much at all in my opinion… And, especially while engaged in combat, his demeanor didn’t need much improvement to begin with. Even though Sasuke did indeed charge and scream at Itachi during their early encounter, that was never his usual demeanor during combat, he usually assumed a much more tactful and reserved approach; that is probably the only battle where he acted so rash. With that said, your claim of his personality development is inconclusive.
Sasuke was never such a calm person before, in the beginning he was more the broody type, but after the timeskip, his demeanor changed to a much more calm and collected person. I find it quite surprising you can't see the difference between pre-timeskip and post-timeskip Sasuke, its one of the few times the manga recieves proper character development and you seem insistent to shove it off as non-existent.

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Naruto on the other hand, has actually gained noticeable personality development in part II; and he should have, considering he needed it the most. However, at the same time I wouldn’t expect him to have a similar demeanor to someone like Neji or Shikamaru during combat; that is just not who he is, he has a very explosive personality, and people like that are needed (not just for the village, but also for the diversity of the characters in the manga). He is however, considerably less of an asshole than he used to be, so your claim of naruto’s lack of personality development is also inconclusive.
That, I will have to admit. However, Naruto has changed far less then Sasuke. His changes are subtle to the point where one easilly wonders if they exist at all (I do love the glaring Naruto change, great adition). Naruto is also far more prone to return to his pre-timeskip persona then Sasuke.

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This is an excellent example of what I mentioned in my earlier post: “misconstruing facts to fit ideas, when it should be the other way around.” It appears you are a naruto fan, so obviously you will favor naruto and thus use his accomplishments of impressive feats to contrive an idea or theory of him actually being a genius despite the manga clearly stating otherwise numerous times.
I'm having trouble not being offended. Anyway, I am hardly a Naruto fan (if anything, I'm a Tenten fan. Poor Tenten. T_T) also, I am misconstructing ideas when the manga blatantly states people being impressed by his, in their words, 'amazing progress?'

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Obviously naruto is pretty above average, however that does not warrant labeling him as a genius; the author’s writing is also partly to blame for this because, there are certain inconsistencies with the characters labeled “geniuses” during their childhood, however that is a debate for another thread. Also, despite Sasuke being a genius it is still possible for naruto to keep up with him(even though he is not a genius) since he has the appropriate amount of heart and tenacity; which of course, happens to be the cardinal message of the story.
In other words, the term genius is inherently garbled, as Sasuke is throwing his own weight of heart and tenacity around, albeit in the form of hate. Right.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-07-15 at 19:43. Reason: deleted potentional flamebait
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Old 2008-07-15, 19:41   Link #232
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Old 2008-07-15, 22:14   Link #233
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Naruto surpassing Sasuke was very much part of the reason for Sasuke's frustration. Because Naruto surpassed him Sasuke felt that he wasn't progressing enough. The fight with Gaara, the battle on the rooftop, these were key elements that showed Naruto surpassing Sasuke. The rooftop battle especially shows Sasuke's frustration, he wanted to show that he was stronger, that he was progressing. But Naruto had bested him, Naruto had grown farther then he had, which frustrated him.
Quite simply, Sasuke doesn’t care about naruto; I doubt I should have to state any examples to support this; none of his ambitions or agendas has anything to do with naruto at all. The closing gap between their powers was simply another indication of Sasuke’s idea of him receiving inadequate training and not exerting enough effort necessary to reach Itachi’s caliber; not a reason. As I stated earlier, Sasuke has been treading down the path of abandoning the village; the rooftop only hastened the end result. I really have nothing left to say regarding this topic.

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The difference here is that you say the gap was never closed, while the various scenes of Naruto making actions where Sasuke could not, such as the already mentioned Gaara battle or rooftop battle, contradict this.
Naruto’s rasangan having a larger blast output than Sasuke’s chidori during one occurrence does not mean naruto surpassed Sauske or was better than him, the same way a hole in a wall made by one of Tsunade’s punches does not make her more powerful or better ninja than say, Itachi.

As for the Gaara battle… Fortunately for naruto, he had already received instruction for a summoning technique that would enable him to survive against Gaara; because honestly, once Gamba was summoned, he basically took care of 90 percent of the fight, since all naruto did after the summon was stay on his head and give Gaara a punch(while he was sleeping), and later on, a head butt. I’m really not trying to discredit naruto, however if Sasuke was given instruction on proper chakra control and was made to sign a summoning contract with a powerful sage beast, who’s to say that he could not have done the same if not better?
The fact of the matter is, during that time, naruto was receiving a moderately higher quality of training than Sasuke (and even then has not achieved an undeniable lead over Sasuke); however, we’ve already seen the results of them both receiving training from legendary instructors who are close in power and ability.

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Priority? No. But when a character returns from a 3 year training mission with empty hands, that gets on peoples nerves.
When compared to Sasuke, naruto’s progress does seem lacking, however he did not come back “empty handed”; besides Sasuke, naruto is pretty much the most powerful amongst his peers and is the only one among them whose name was brought up as a prospective hokage. The problem is, most of you *only* compare him to the one person he did not surpass yet.


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Sasuke was never such a calm person before, in the beginning he was more the broody type, but after the timeskip, his demeanor changed to a much more calm and collected person. I find it quite surprising you can't see the difference between pre-timeskip and post-timeskip Sasuke, its one of the few times the manga recieves proper character development and you seem insistent to shove it off as non-existent.
I never denied the existence of Sasuke’s character development, I only stated that “he hasn’t changed much at all” – which he hasn’t; the multitude of anti-sasuke members’ comments of Sasuke being an “emo for life” and etc. is evidence of him still possessing most of his morbid demeanor. Sasuke is still: snobbish, anti-social, rude to his associates, arrogant, nonchalant, and very determined to achieve whatever goal he has at a given time – he cares little if at all about anything else. And, yes he was calm in part I; during battles, Sasuke was never the irrational type to charge in like naruto or Kiba; he was always more of a tactician. I must be honest with you; this particular argument is actually a bit funny considering the only significant developments in his character only made him a more potent variation of what he always was. In part I, he was relatively calm, in part II, he became calmer…

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that, I will have to admit. However, Naruto has changed far less then Sasuke. His changes are subtle to the point where one easilly wonders if they exist at all (I do love the glaring Naruto change, great adition). Naruto is also far more prone to return to his pre-timeskip persona then Sasuke.
naruto changing far less than Sasuke? This is actually laughable. As stated above Sasuke has barely changed while naruto has matured more; since after all he needed more maturing in the first place.


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I'm having trouble not being offended. Anyway, I am hardly a Naruto fan (if anything, I'm a Tenten fan. Poor Tenten. T_T) also, I am misconstructing ideas when the manga blatantly states people being impressed by his, in their words, 'amazing progress?'
Another clear example of twisting facts to support your own ideas. You cannot accurately equate “amazing progress” with being a genius because, it’s entirely possible for a regular, average person to display amazing progress via hard work, and dedication. (It’s been done all through history) And, if I were you I would not want to base my argument on what the manga "blatantly states" considering what it blatantly states about naruto: namely that he has no talent while Sasuke is a talented genius. You should to rearrange your ideas to fit the facts, not the other way around.

Last edited by ShadowAssasin; 2008-07-15 at 22:39.
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Old 2008-07-15, 23:01   Link #234
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Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin View Post
As for the Gaara battle… Fortunately for naruto, he had already received instruction for a summoning technique that would enable him to survive against Gaara; because honestly, once Gamba was summoned, he basically took care of 90 percent of the fight, since all naruto did after the summon was stay on his head and give Gaara a punch(while he was sleeping), and later on, a head butt. I’m really not trying to discredit naruto, however if Sasuke was given instruction on proper chakra control and was made to sign a summoning contract with a powerful sage beast, who’s to say that he could not have done the same if not better?
Let's be realistic, there is no way that Sasuke could have summoned a creature that could have been useful in the fight with Gaara (i.e. a large creature that could have broken through the sand and acted as a body for a large scale henge). Even if he had 100% precise chakra control and used his curse seal, there is no way that he would have had enough chakra to summon (one of the most chakra intensive activities in the series) a boss level or similiar size summon creature (this was back in the time period where he could only use 3-4 Chidori's a day before he collapsed from exhaustion). (Hell, Naruto needed to use the Kyuubi in order to summon Gama Bunta.)

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The fact of the matter is, during that time, naruto was receiving a moderately higher quality of training than Sasuke (and even then has not achieved an undeniable lead over Sasuke); however, we’ve already seen the results of them both receiving training from legendary instructors who are close in power and ability.
I never really believed the argument that Sasuke was receiving improper or worse training in Part I. Sasuke, at the time, received a comparable level frontal meelee attack in the Chidori (as well as the necessary chakra control to up his reserves as well as the control to use his supply better)and strength training to up his speed to the level of Lee (I forget if it is Lee with or without his weights), whereas Naruto received chakra training (so he could use the Kyuubi which directly allowed him to utilize the summoning technique) and then the Rasengan after he learned to control his chakra better. (It should also be noted that the data books give statistical information in regards to improvement before and after the Chuunin Preliminary exams, and Sasuke's stats improve more than Naruto's.)

Added to that, Sasuke was knocked out for at least 2 weeks due to his encounter with Itachi, and has been shown before, within just a week Sasuke can greatly improve, so realistically, Naruto was able to catch up so eaisily because Sasuke knocked himself out by blindly charging into battle with Itachi.

This is not discounting the amazing progress that Sasuke made under Orochimaru, I am merely clearing up the misconception that Naruto somehow received special or better training than Sasuke during Part I.
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Old 2008-07-16, 00:44   Link #235
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Let's be realistic, there is no way that Sasuke could have summoned a creature that could have been useful in the fight with Gaara (i.e. a large creature that could have broken through the sand and acted as a body for a large scale henge). Even if he had 100% precise chakra control and used his curse seal, there is no way that he would have had enough chakra to summon (one of the most chakra intensive activities in the series) a boss level or similiar size summon creature (this was back in the time period where he could only use 3-4 Chidori's a day before he collapsed from exhaustion). (Hell, Naruto needed to use the Kyuubi in order to summon Gama Bunta.)
I just looked at the fight scene; naruto did use the kyuubi to summon the frog during the Gaara fight. He only had the kyuubi eyes briefly, in one panel, apparently I forgot about that lol.

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I never really believed the argument that Sasuke was receiving improper or worse training in Part I. Sasuke, at the time, received a comparable level frontal meelee attack in the Chidori (as well as the necessary chakra control to up his reserves as well as the control to use his supply better)and strength training to up his speed to the level of Lee (I forget if it is Lee with or without his weights), whereas Naruto received chakra training (so he could use the Kyuubi which directly allowed him to utilize the summoning technique) and then the Rasengan after he learned to control his chakra better.
Don’t misunderstand, I never called his training improper; in fact, I believe Kakashi to be one of the best trainers Sasuke could have had (i.e. the sharingan); however, I also believe Jiraiya’s training to be of a higher quality (although only moderately high, as I stated earlier). During that time, both Jiraiya and Orochimaru were more knowledgeable and experienced in combat as well as training young ninja than Kakashi. (Again, probably only moderately)
(lol I believe this is the first debate we’ve had )

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(It should also be noted that the data books give statistical information in regards to improvement before and after the Chuunin Preliminary exams, and Sasuke's stats improve more than Naruto's.)
What does it say about the end of part I? Or rather, is there any point where naruto’s stats are higher than Sasuke’s in part I? (you know, you could have mentioned this data book of yours earlier to conclude the debate, before I wrote that dissertation up there)
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Old 2008-07-16, 01:10   Link #236
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I second the request for the data. It'd be nice to have some clear confirmation on that instead of speculation based on what we've seen.
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Old 2008-07-16, 01:12   Link #237
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What does it say about the end of part I? Or rather, is there any point where naruto’s stats are higher than Sasuke’s in part I? (you know, you could have mentioned this data book of yours earlier to end the discussion, before I wrote that dissertation up there)
lol, Sorry. Here is a fun Animesuki link Naruto Characters' Data Book.

Additionally, here are some statistical variations between the Databook One and Two Stats (collected by wrstljr, a fellow Naruto fan from a forbidden site)

Most Overall Points (Out of 40, 5 per category)

(Order of Categories/Numbers=Ninjutsu,Taijustu,Genjutsu, Intelligence, Power, Speed, Stamina/Spirit, Seal Speed (read clockwise from the top of the octagon)) (This does not include power-ups facilitated by Kyuubi, Curse Seal or Sharingan.)

Before Chuunin exam:
Sasuke - 18.5 (2.5, 2.5, 1.5, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3)
Naruto - 14.5 (2, 1.5, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 1)

After Chuunin Exam (pre-VOTE fight, no data is collected again until Part II starts, but these were the statistical coditions of the two fighters at VoTE):
Sasuke - 22.5 (3.5, 2.5, 1.5, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 3, 3)
Naruto - 18.5 (3, 2, 1, 1.5, 3, 3, 4, 1)

I was wrong, it seems, Naruto and Sasuke went up equally (by 4 points). But, Sasuke improved everything (except Intelligence and Taijutsu), whereas Naruto only improved some of his stats (his Intelligence equals Sasuke by VoTE ).
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Old 2008-07-16, 01:18   Link #238
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Well, this pretty much throws a sledgehammer on my 'Naruto surpassed Sasuke' theory. The prosecution rests while they analyze this new information.
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Old 2008-07-16, 01:22   Link #239
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Well, this pretty much throws a sledgehammer on my 'Naruto surpassed Sasuke' theory. The prosecution rests while they analyze this new information.
LOL, don't worry to much about the stats. By the stats Neji is 25 out of 40 by the Rescue Sasuke arc, so that means Sasuke could have never beaten Neji, but we know that Sasuke at VoTE could have beaten Neji and possibly eaisily. These stats are just a brief example of the characters base skills. Of key note is the second to last stat entitled Stamina/Spirit. All you need in a Shounen show/manga is enough Spirit and you can overcome anything, and Naruto leads Sasuke in this field (pre-Part II...I do not think a Part II Data Book has been released yet, but I could be wrong).
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Old 2008-07-16, 02:47   Link #240
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Noted. Still, I'll keep this data in mind.

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Quite simply, Sasuke doesn’t care about naruto; I doubt I should have to state any examples to support this; none of his ambitions or agendas has anything to do with naruto at all. The closing gap between their powers was simply another indication of Sasuke’s idea of him receiving inadequate training and not exerting enough effort necessary to reach Itachi’s caliber; not a reason. As I stated earlier, Sasuke has been treading down the path of abandoning the village; the rooftop only hastened the end result. I really have nothing left to say regarding this topic.
I... am quite honestly surprised at the contradictions you just posted. You say Sasuke doesn't care about Naruto, yet at the same time you say that Naruto closing the gap between them frustrated him becasue it made him feel that he recieved inadequite training. If Sasuke didn't care about Naruto, then he wouldn't have challenged Naruto in the hospital. After all, if he did't care about Naruto, then how strong Naruto is didn't matter. But Sasuke cared. Sasuke knew that Naruto was catching up to him, at times even surpassing him (even if only by Kyuubi, but Sasuke didn't know that back then) which frustrated him, because to him, that meant he was growing slower then 'the dobe'

So Naruto's... perhaps I shouldn't say growth, lets say Naruto's extraordinary feats, were very much a part of the reason for Sasuke leaving Konoha. Once again, not the reason, but one of the gears in the bigger part.

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Naruto’s rasangan having a larger blast output than Sasuke’s chidori during one occurrence does not mean naruto surpassed Sauske or was better than him, the same way a hole in a wall made by one of Tsunade’s punches does not make her more powerful or better ninja than say, Itachi.
And yet Sasuke was greatly frustrated by the fact that Naruto's attack did conciderably more damage.

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The fact of the matter is, during that time, naruto was receiving a moderately higher quality of training than Sasuke (and even then has not achieved an undeniable lead over Sasuke); however, we’ve already seen the results of them both receiving training from legendary instructors who are close in power and ability.
Data sheets aside, lets see what they learned during the Chuunin exams:

Naruto: Chakra control, accessing Kyuubi Chakra, summoning.

Sasuke: Chakra control, an entire fighting style, considerable increase in speed, elemental affinity and manipulation, Chidori.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Naruto recieved a higher quallity training. It's obvious that Sasuke learned the same chakra control excersize as Naruto (during VotE, he could stand on water) Sharingan training (Sasuke gains anoter and he recieved an entire fighting style from Kakashi (who had extensive knowledge of the style from Gai) this raining forced him to gain a considerable speed boost, which was also needed for the Chidori.

Naruto learned chakra control, the knowledge of accesing Kyuubi's chakra which is a conciderable boost, make no mistake, but it was only teaching him acces to something he always had, similar to Sasuke's Sharingan. And summoning, which was also a conciderable boost.

So while Naruto did recieve major buffs, Sasuke recieved more buffs overal, including the copy-ninja's sole original technique. The elemental affinity nd manipulation was something Naruto didn't learn untill three years later. I'd say that balances the account.

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When compared to Sasuke, naruto’s progress does seem lacking, however he did not come back “empty handed”;
By all means, do tell what nifty trinkets Naruto returned with. So far all I'm counting is a broken berserker rage.

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besides Sasuke, naruto is pretty much the most powerful amongst his peers and is the only one among them whose name was brought up as a prospective hokage. The problem is, most of you *only* compare him to the one person he did not surpass yet.
Concidering the series constantly does this, can you blame us? Besides, I've said more often then not that I don't hate Sasuke, just that I don't like the fact that Sasuke progressed conciderably more then Naruto during the timeskip, and the h4xx eyes of doom.

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I never denied the existence of Sasuke’s character development, I only stated that “he hasn’t changed much at all” – which he hasn’t; the multitude of anti-sasuke members’ comments of Sasuke being an “emo for life” and etc. is evidence of him still possessing most of his morbid demeanor. Sasuke is still: snobbish, anti-social, rude to his associates, arrogant, nonchalant, and very determined to achieve whatever goal he has at a given time – he cares little if at all about anything else. And, yes he was calm in part I; during battles, Sasuke was never the irrational type to charge in like naruto or Kiba; he was always more of a tactician. I must be honest with you; this particular argument is actually a bit funny considering the only significant developments in his character only made him a more potent variation of what he always was. In part I, he was relatively calm, in part II, he became calmer…
Calmer, colder, its like he erased all of his emotions, barring several outbursts against Itachi (which is understandable, he was facing the source of his loathing after all). Come to think of it, he has become pretty much his brother in terms of personallity.

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naruto changing far less than Sasuke? This is actually laughable. As stated above Sasuke has barely changed while naruto has matured more; since after all he needed more maturing in the first place.
More, but not enough. Like I said, glaring Naruto instead of yelling Naruto was a nice adition, but that is pretty much where the changes end. He's still an idiot most of the time (the Kage Bunshin training episode was practically insulting, though the manga took it easier then the anime) he still charges in without thinking most of the time, only starting to think at the final moment, which is no change from what we've seen since the Wave arc.

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Another clear example of twisting facts to support your own ideas. You cannot accurately equate “amazing progress” with being a genius because, it’s entirely possible for a regular, average person to display amazing progress via hard work, and dedication.
So, just to get this straight, what is a genius according to you?

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And, if I were you I would not want to base my argument on what the manga "blatantly states" considering what it blatantly states about naruto: namely that he has no talent while Sasuke is a talented genius. You should to rearrange your ideas to fit the facts, not the other way around.
Does it? The only time that was said was in the beginning, and perhaps once or twice by people just getting to know him. After that, what do we get? Heaps of praises on how fast Naruto grasps the concepts of techniques.
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