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Old 2008-07-21, 02:08   Link #221
plato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
Ras: I have responded on your site and I will make a note here as well.

Dragonauts was not a joint between Shinsen and anime yuki, it was shinsen alone. I know, I was on the project team. Make sure you have information like that 100% correct before submitting it. If you don't have important things like that right it kills the point of a compare.
I think I have to answer this

It was my entry and I did mess it up a little. There was a bug when site first launched. SHS couldn't be selected alone. For testing purposes I entered it anyway. We solved the problem of course but I forgot to reset group name to SHS only. I will correct it at once when I'm home.

Also if you read the tutorial you can see Dragonaut was prepared for writing tutorial. Normally 5 or more screenshots are prepared for an anime.
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Old 2008-07-21, 02:29   Link #222
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ras80 View Post
Thank you for the information. But I think you are missing the main point. Have you checked http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/addscreenshot ? Site is community based, that means anyone can upload screenshots. Think about it as a wiki. Of course wrong info can be entered, but after your point, we deleted the entry easily. Why don't you send "your" best screen shots with "the correct info" to show us what you did in your project?

The biggest problem of the other comparison sites is that they are one man projects, they are not community based. If the guy just gets bored, or his/her exams start then the site just out dates. I hope my points are taken.
I did not miss the point. Do you believe that wikis just allow incorrect info to reside on them? Moderators check all information and the references for them to make sure they are correct. I do not have screens btw. I only keep scripts and do not dl releases.
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Old 2008-07-21, 04:04   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
I did not miss the point. Do you believe that wikis just allow incorrect info to reside on them? Moderators check all information and the references for them to make sure they are correct. I do not have screens btw. I only keep scripts and do not dl releases.
Ok, ok.. Calm down.. First, as I said it was my mistake to not delete incorrect entered screenshot. I was thinking of editing it later to correct the error.

As you said, "moderators check everything", but moderators are human too and can make mistakes. You don't think moderators are sitting on a computer and waiting for a feed to check on things all the time, do you? We all have lifes other than checking the site for mistakes every minute.

Also you don't have to enter any screenshots of course. Nobody forces you. This site is entirely fan based and of course while some users prefer entering screen shots, some users will only use it as comparing the screen shots. This is what the site intended for.

You can be sure, at least I will enter screen-shots when I'm available. So you can be sure the site will be updated constantly. But of course if other users will enter information too, than it will update a lot faster.

BTW, I'm open to suggestions which animes do you want to see first for comparison? I could upload screenshots after I downloaded (if I don't have) all the fansubs required for anime.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:14   Link #224
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plato View Post
Ok, ok.. Calm down.. First, as I said it was my mistake to not delete incorrect entered screenshot. I was thinking of editing it later to correct the error.

As you said, "moderators check everything", but moderators are human too and can make mistakes. You don't think moderators are sitting on a computer and waiting for a feed to check on things all the time, do you? We all have lifes other than checking the site for mistakes every minute.

Also you don't have to enter any screenshots of course. Nobody forces you. This site is entirely fan based and of course while some users prefer entering screen shots, some users will only use it as comparing the screen shots. This is what the site intended for.

You can be sure, at least I will enter screen-shots when I'm available. So you can be sure the site will be updated constantly. But of course if other users will enter information too, than it will update a lot faster.

BTW, I'm open to suggestions which animes do you want to see first for comparison? I could upload screenshots after I downloaded (if I don't have) all the fansubs required for anime.
First off I'm not, nor was I excited. Secondly I was replying to ras80's comments. I understood your's totally.

Last edited by getfresh; 2008-07-21 at 20:03.
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Old 2008-07-21, 05:59   Link #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
I did not miss the point. Do you believe that wikis just allow incorrect info to reside on them? Moderators check all information and the references for them to make sure they are correct. I do not have screens btw. I only keep scripts and do not dl releases.
Yes, you are correct on that. Wikis should not allow incorrect info to reside on them.
As there is no script that can decide what's an incorrect info and correct one, we must rely on humans to do that. Thus means we need more moderators.

There is a trade off between über correctness and up to date information and our decision was the latter. I think as our database progresses and more moderators join, our margin between "good" and "bad" will be a few hours.
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Old 2008-07-21, 06:19   Link #226
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Originally Posted by ras80 View Post
What do you mean by "ludicrous" ? I would be glad if you can tell more. Well the name of "COMPARE" button may be misleading as you are not required to select more than one screen shot to see it in it's full resolution glory.
I had an idea about using AJAX earlier, but I don't feel like coding it, because it will be a bit more complicated to code based on my requirements... You seem to get a bit upset because of the comment-- Look here, if you compare top shots and bottom shots... It will be a lengthy horizontal scroll... Hence the word, "ludicrous" :L

As everyone knows, you can easily use JavaScript to rescale and crop images. On top of that, because of its dynamics, you can display them on the fly without having to click more buttons than needed. Ideally, clicking three times and dragging part of the image can be accomplished before comparing between three screenshots at a time... Best interface = less clicks and scrolling. To drag to another part of the image, you can easily accomplish by dragging in the small thumbnail. They are all supported under AJAX.

Quote:
Site is community based, that means anyone can upload screenshots. Think about it as a wiki. Of course wrong info can be entered, but after your point, we deleted the entry easily. Why don't you send "your" best screen shots with "the correct info" to show us what you did in your project?

The biggest problem of the other comparison sites is that they are one man projects, they are not community based. If the guy just gets bored, or his/her exams start then the site just out dates. I hope my points are taken.
Then obviously, you need to fix up your uploading/entry system... Maybe it's best to have the users select what stuff to upload, or have a competent moderator for the site. I would have done something a bit more evil... Parse through AniDB site automatically hehe... These are just suggestions... Don't get upset.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-07-21 at 06:30.
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Old 2008-07-21, 07:08   Link #227
ras80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
I had an idea about using AJAX earlier, but I don't feel like coding it, because it will be a bit more complicated to code based on my requirements... You seem to get a bit upset because of the comment-- Look here, if you compare top shots and bottom shots... It will be a lengthy horizontal scroll... Hence the word, "ludicrous" :L

As everyone knows, you can easily use JavaScript to rescale and crop images. On top of that, because of its dynamics, you can display them on the fly without having to click more buttons than needed. Ideally, clicking three times and dragging part of the image can be accomplished before comparing between three screenshots at a time... Best interface = less clicks and scrolling. To drag to another part of the image, you can easily accomplish by dragging in the small thumbnail. They are all supported under AJAX.



Then obviously, you need to fix up your uploading/entry system... Maybe it's best to have the users select what stuff to upload, or have a competent moderator for the site. I would have done something a bit more evil... Parse through AniDB site automatically hehe... These are just suggestions... Don't get upset.
Well, its great to have feedback and I can assure you no bad feelings. :') I think we can work more on the interface but I think its still good to have something, more than mere table design (2-3 mb pages). Who told you we are not using anidb data ? :'), check http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/addscreenshot Anime Name: and Group Name: Fields. Enter a few characters and the rest is automatically populated by anidb. My only regret is that we could not get the file database from them (i don't like parsing but maybe you can share your script with us, eheh), with that more things would be easier and error proof :\
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Last edited by ras80; 2008-07-21 at 07:26.
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Old 2008-07-21, 08:52   Link #228
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ras80 View Post
Well, its great to have feedback and I can assure you no bad feelings. :') I think we can work more on the interface but I think its still good to have something, more than mere table design (2-3 mb pages). Who told you we are not using anidb data ? :'), check http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/addscreenshot Anime Name: and Group Name: Fields. Enter a few characters and the rest is automatically populated by anidb. My only regret is that we could not get the file database from them (i don't like parsing but maybe you can share your script with us, eheh), with that more things would be easier and error proof :\
Yes, I just noticed it now... But, my thought was to parse through all the group names on AniDB to get all the abbreviations -- maybe spend about a week on it because you don't want to hammer the site. Then after the anime is entered, you can obtain the group's names by displaying all the group names there directly from anidb site. And link to "Show All" to get all the groups subbing for that project. Alternatively, have user to select which groups to go... And then link it to anidb page if the user doesn't know what the group is.

The only problem with getting groups per episode will require you to login to do so on anidb... But, you don't really want to do that, so it will be impossible...
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:27   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Yes, I just noticed it now... But, my thought was to parse through all the group names on AniDB to get all the abbreviations -- maybe spend about a week on it because you don't want to hammer the site. Then after the anime is entered, you can obtain the group's names by displaying all the group names there directly from anidb site. And link to "Show All" to get all the groups subbing for that project. Alternatively, have user to select which groups to go... And then link it to anidb page if the user doesn't know what the group is.

The only problem with getting groups per episode will require you to login to do so on anidb... But, you don't really want to do that, so it will be impossible...
Well if we could that that would be so cool. : D Actually that was our first thought while designing the site. But (as exp pm'ed me) there is no feasible way to do that right now. (Impossible with UDP API, and no HTTP/XML Request code was written / implemented) We are parsing anime name dump, and group data to be update with anidb.(Yes we are using their ids). But the file data you suggested, It can not be done without parsing whole anidb. And website parsing is not something wanted. Btw we are not working online, all the data is (auto complete boxes) are cached on local.
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:37   Link #230
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Originally Posted by ras80 View Post
Well if we could that that would be so cool. : D Actually that was our first thought while designing the site. But (as exp pm'ed me) there is no feasible way to do that right now. (Impossible with UDP API, and no HTTP/XML Request code was written / implemented) We are parsing anime name dump, and group data to be update with anidb.(Yes we are using their ids). But the file data you suggested, It can not be done without parsing whole anidb. And website parsing is not something wanted. Btw we are not working online, all the data is (auto complete boxes) are cached on local.
No, why would you need to parse the whole site? If you're already parsing through AniDB like http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...ag=1#grouplist when Naruto Shippudden Movie is tagged, then only one page to parse through is needed. Also, the full group name is given in the anchor tag's title... Easy.

you only need to grab the abbreviations and display it there... People will actually have to go on AniDB to know what they stand for (a link is feasible)...

I don't think writing that function will be so difficult... (And I actually think that AniDB should have a screenshot comparison system available there... if they can provide such high bw's)
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Old 2008-07-21, 10:52   Link #231
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http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/faqs

Quote:
How can I take a screen-shot from an anime?
  • We will use Media Player Classic (MPC) for taking a screen-shot (SS). Of course you can use another application. It is up to you.
  • First we will run MPC.
  • Select “View*Options…*Output”
  • Here, you’ll see a few options for “Directshow Video Output”. For taking SS we will use “VMR9 (renderless)”. You can select other VMRs. They would work too.
  • Push “OK”.
  • Now if you didn’t save a SS before with MPC (if you’re reading this probably not of course) we have to set format to JPEG. It’s default to BMP.
  • First open any video. Pause in any screen then select “File*Save Image…”
  • Here you’ll see MPC tries to save image as “Bmp” type. Change “Save as type” to “Jpeg”
  • Save SS. You can delete this file later. Remember the folder you saved your SS. This folder will be default folder for SS.
  • Now, MPC is ready to take SS.
  • Open your anime. Usually you will take 5-10 SS for an episode.
  • Seek to time you want to take SS. You could also use Step button to select appropriate frame. When you’re satisfied, pres “F5”. You’ll see the screen captured as “snapshot.jpg”
  • BTW, window size doesn’t matter when you capture a SS. The size of the image will be same as video resolution. If a video is 1920x1080 then even when you don’t have a capable monitor and watching it in a 1024x768 resolution, SS will have resolution of 1920x1080.
  • That’s all. Now you are ready to upload this file to Fansub Screenshot Comparison System.
Please don't. It's wrong in too many ways. Either grab the frame number from ffdshow with its grab function, or load it with AviSynth into VirtualDub and save screencaps like that.
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:04   Link #232
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Originally Posted by pichus View Post
No, why would you need to parse the whole site? If you're already parsing through AniDB like http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...ag=1#grouplist when Naruto Shippudden Movie is tagged, then only one page to parse through is needed. Also, the full group name is given in the anchor tag's title... Easy.

you only need to grab the abbreviations and display it there... People will actually have to go on AniDB to know what they stand for (a link is feasible)...

I don't think writing that function will be so difficult... (And I actually think that AniDB should have a screenshot comparison system available there... if they can provide such high bw's)
I think there is a misunderstanding, we are not parsing anidb website. We are just using the anime name dumps they provide daily to import daily anime name data to our database. Other than that they not providing any thing. Website parsing is pain in the ass as they change their layout, tags, html source regularly. If no constant data source is provided, web site parsing is not a solution. But I agree on that it would be great if they had this feature. BW is a problem for them as UDP API is banning you instantly if you make more than 2 queries less than 10 sec interval.
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:10   Link #233
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Originally Posted by martino View Post
http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/faqs

Please don't. It's wrong in too many ways. Either grab the frame number from ffdshow with its grab function, or load it with AviSynth into VirtualDub and save screencaps like that.
Hey thank you for the feed back..And I do would like to hear this "too many ways that are wrong". We need to give our average ss uploader Joe a good reason to do that, instead of MPC/F5 right? :)
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Old 2008-07-21, 11:41   Link #234
martino
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1) Setting renderer to VMR9 is not a good idea, because it is prone to not working correctly. Plus you don't really want to output from the renderer, because depending on your graphics card the output may differ. If you really want to use this approach badly, use Haali's.

2) Saving as JPEG? Where did you come from? JPEG is lossy, therefore information is lost from the source in order to compress the picture, ie make it smaller. Use PNG which uses lossless compression. After all, you do want to compare the video quality too, and not just the subtitle style, right?
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Old 2008-07-21, 15:48   Link #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
http://fansub.animanga.gen.tr/faqs

Please don't. It's wrong in too many ways. Either grab the frame number from ffdshow with its grab function, or load it with AviSynth into VirtualDub and save screencaps like that.
I thought about frame number. But as you see in Hakaba Kitarou (Graveyard Kitarou) times / frames doesn't match between groups. So it's up to user to select correct time between groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
1) Setting renderer to VMR9 is not a good idea, because it is prone to not working correctly. Plus you don't really want to output from the renderer, because depending on your graphics card the output may differ. If you really want to use this approach badly, use Haali's.

2) Saving as JPEG? Where did you come from? JPEG is lossy, therefore information is lost from the source in order to compress the picture, ie make it smaller. Use PNG which uses lossless compression. After all, you do want to compare the video quality too, and not just the subtitle style, right?
1) VMR9 (windowed) could do that, but is VMR9 (renderless) still uses video card? I didn't try Haali's renderer though. It could be good idea.. Well it really is up to the user's favorite media player. MPC is only one program and there are a lot of programs in the open to get a screen-shot.

2) After the first entry we thought about that too.. From hereafter I plan to take screenshots with BMP format then convert to PNG (lossless) to update to site. I'll rewrite tutorial to explain how to do that (with MSPAINT of course.. But users could use other programs for converting like Faststone or Acdsee or something else)
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:29   Link #236
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Originally Posted by martino View Post
2) Saving as JPEG? Where did you come from? JPEG is lossy, therefore information is lost from the source in order to compress the picture, ie make it smaller. Use PNG which uses lossless compression. After all, you do want to compare the video quality too, and not just the subtitle style, right?
I disagree. You won't notice the difference unless you zoom in. And because of factors like source video and choice of filters, the difference in quality is obvious enough. If this was a strict comparison of encodes from the same source, then maybe it would be warranted, but I don't think PNG is gonna do much for this project, except increasing the file size x10.
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:32   Link #237
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Originally Posted by DontAsk View Post
You won't notice the difference unless you zoom in.
i beg to differ
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Old 2008-07-21, 19:37   Link #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontAsk View Post
I disagree. You won't notice the difference unless you zoom in. And because of factors like source video and choice of filters, the difference in quality is obvious enough. If this was a strict comparison of encodes from the same source, then maybe it would be warranted, but I don't think PNG is gonna do much for this project, except increasing the file size x10.
Only a lossless shot can be used to judge an encode. PNG is lossless, JPEG is not. Whether you personally can notice something or not is your opinion, fact remains that PNG is lossless and therefore does justice for the encoders.

Why would anyone want to compare encodes from shots that were lossy? You could say that perhaps an average viewer won't really notice any difference, but there are also encoders out there who wish to know which group has the best encode for the show they want to watch. Please explain why PNG won't do much for "this" project or any particular project that involves comparing encodes.
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Old 2008-07-21, 21:15   Link #239
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I acknowledge that PNG is superior when it purely comes down to picture quality, but my point is that any JPEG artifacts (that you probably won't notice) are insignificant compared to the differences the source and filtering brings to the table. It's just a sensible trade-off to save bandwidth and load time for this informal comparison.
And a simple frame screenshot with no information about bitrate or anything never really does justice to an encoder no matter what format it is in.
Of course, the choice is up to the site makers, so I'll leave it at that. I just wanted to state my opinion.
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:08   Link #240
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Originally Posted by DontAsk View Post
I acknowledge that PNG is superior when it purely comes down to picture quality, but my point is that any JPEG artifacts (that you probably won't notice) are insignificant compared to the differences the source and filtering brings to the table. It's just a sensible trade-off to save bandwidth and load time for this informal comparison.
And a simple frame screenshot with no information about bitrate or anything never really does justice to an encoder no matter what format it is in.
Of course, the choice is up to the site makers, so I'll leave it at that. I just wanted to state my opinion.
What if the difference is that one encode has an abundance of artifacts?

Also, one idea is have both jpeg AND png options. Some other site did that iirc.
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