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Old 2008-07-21, 12:47   Link #4061
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Even without the accident, Lelouch was willing to use Geass to make Euphy shoot him so he could drag her name through the mud and destroy everything she worked for. He used his Geass to basically make EVERYONE who was watching him at Ashford his slave for life. Using the Geass to make people "lose their will" and do things he needs hem to even when they never would on their own is ALL he does with it. He used in this fashion against every single soldier he made follow his oreders, he used it like this aganst Clovis, he used it like this against Cornelia, he used it like this on Euphie, and he even used it like this on KALLEN at the beginning of the series. All this is the same as what Suzaku didn't want to lower himself to doing. I don't know if you were trying to say something completely different from what you actually tried to claim here, but the only appropriate response to it is "...lol wut?"

ok
1)making euphie shoot him was to prevent her from destroying everything he worked for
2)making the spies in ashford ignore him is not the same as making them slaves (and they were not there to be his friends)
3)i already said he uses it as a stratigic weapon (when commanding people is all your weapon can do then thats what you do with it)
4)clovis cornelia and kallen were asked questions (the first two were asked about his moms death and kallen was asked why she fights) and not made to do anything else
and none of them remembered it
and since someone is sure to equate that to what suzaku almost did with kallen i have a suggestion for you
rewatch that scene in ep 15 with suzaku and kallen
and then tell me that this scene (especially the part where the camera doesnt show them and all you hear is kallen screaming in progressivly louder tones) doesnt reek of a diffrent sort of action rather then questioning
needless to say that him proceeding with it would have made him a complete monster
small wonder he stopped
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:50   Link #4062
Dream_Traveller
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Again, failure to read. It doesn't matter what kind of questions are asked, Lelouch manipulated people with his power to his own ends, and whilst he has more control over it, he still uses it for the same purpose in R2.

And...pfff, what? Everything he worked for? Didn't you even pay attention to the subtitles? He wanted Euphemia to shoot him just so that he could become a martyr and that the Japanese populace would sully Euphemia's name, not the opposite.
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Old 2008-07-21, 12:51   Link #4063
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Again, failure to read. It doesn't matter what kind of questions are asked, Lelouch manipulated people with his power to his own ends, and whilst he has more control over it, he still uses it for the same purpose in R2.

And...pfff, what? Everything he worked for? Didn't you even pay attention to the subtitles? He wanted Euphemia to shoot him just so that he could become a martyr and that the Japanese populace would sully Euphemia's name, not the opposite.

actually it was either that or he loses the OOBK and everything he worked for
and she did it with a few words
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Old 2008-07-21, 13:20   Link #4064
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...Lelouch didn't work towards the SAZ. Euphemia did. And if 'she' was a typo, somehow, that was unintentional and Geass had just permanently activated. Also, in no way was Lelouch even under the threat of losing what he worked towards, or the Order.
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Old 2008-07-21, 13:29   Link #4065
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
...Lelouch didn't work towards the SAZ. Euphemia did. And if 'she' was a typo, somehow, that was unintentional and Geass had just permanently activated. Also, in no way was Lelouch even under the threat of losing what he worked towards, or the Order.
the SAZ was going to cancel the reison detre of the OOBK
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Old 2008-07-21, 13:44   Link #4066
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Both Suzaku and Lulu have made terrible mistakes. That is like a fact.
Suzaku though, he got a reason to hate Lulu. Yes, he might not know exactly the whole truth about the Euphie incident, but what he's got, is enough for him wanting to eliminate Lulu. {same with Lelouch, Suzaku now is not exactly his cup of tea, it's a strong opponent.}

And please, last week majority of the fans were like "Suzaku is gonna use the Refrain, he sucks." He does not, "he still sucks, moral ethics blah blah"
If you wanna hate him, for the sake of hating him, cool but at least admit it.

{and i am a Lulu fan as well for the record, but i'm not gonna close my eyes and justify the massacre that happened on #14 and a lot of other stuff just cause he might seem worse that Suzaku on that epi }
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Old 2008-07-21, 13:56   Link #4067
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the SAZ was going to cancel the reison detre of the OOBK
Nope,the OoBK is some kind of "ally of justice" not a second JLF, their idea was to help the weak...or at least that was what LL preached.SAZ was inconvenient for LL plan so he decided to get rid of it by making his sister a murderer and him a martyr despite the facts that they was close as children or she's his best friend gf.And worse than what Suzaku did this episode,LL changed his mind in the middle not because he realize that his action was bad but because he realized Euphie meant no harm.
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:40   Link #4068
Discerptor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
ok
1)making euphie shoot him was to prevent her from destroying everything he worked for
Except she was actually granting him everything he claimed to want out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.
Quote:
2)making the spies in ashford ignore him is not the same as making them slaves (and they were not there to be his friends)
Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?
Quote:
3)i already said he uses it as a stratigic weapon (when commanding people is all your weapon can do then thats what you do with it)
Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.
Quote:
4)clovis cornelia and kallen were asked questions (the first two were asked about his moms death and kallen was asked why she fights) and not made to do anything else
and none of them remembered it
And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.
Quote:
and since someone is sure to equate that to what suzaku almost did with kallen i have a suggestion for you
rewatch that scene in ep 15 with suzaku and kallen
and then tell me that this scene (especially the part where the camera doesnt show them and all you hear is kallen screaming in progressivly louder tones) doesnt reek of a diffrent sort of action rather then questioning
needless to say that him proceeding with it would have made him a complete monster
small wonder he stopped
No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing any horrible things you can think of, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past (his whole "Comfort me... women can do that, right?" was just disgusting). Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. All this, and Suzaku was restraining her so she couldn't do a thing about it. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:44   Link #4069
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Except she was actually granting him everything he ever wanted out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.

Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?

Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.

And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.

No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing horrible things, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past. Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
dude
might come as a shock to you
but i dont hate suzaku at all
i just think lulu isnt really as bad a guy as he thinks he is (when has lulu tried to rape kallen , if he did she'd kick his ass)
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:47   Link #4070
Discerptor
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((Whoops, ignore this one. Can we delete posts?))
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:48   Link #4071
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Because saying that Suzaku didn't see the fallacy in using Refrain, and also implying that he was going to rape Kallen (I mean...what?) along with other things which would have made him a 'monster' is clearly not bashing.
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Old 2008-07-21, 14:54   Link #4072
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Because saying that Suzaku didn't see the fallacy in using Refrain, and also implying that he was going to rape Kallen (I mean...what?) along with other things which would have made him a 'monster' is clearly not bashing.
i call it as i see it
and thats not what i said
i said if he did use it he would be a monster (which he isnt since he didnt ,as per his character portrail up to this point in the story)
and i said the scene was too remenicent of a rape scene to ignore
and i dont think im the only one who thinks it
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Old 2008-07-21, 15:52   Link #4073
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If Suzaku raped Kallen that would be HILARIOUS. He is not one to do that so it would be an interesting twist .
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Old 2008-07-21, 15:58   Link #4074
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Except she was actually granting him everything he claimed to want out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.

Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?

Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.

And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.

No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing any horrible things you can think of, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past (his whole "Comfort me... women can do that, right?" was just disgusting). Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. All this, and Suzaku was restraining her so she couldn't do a thing about it. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.

Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.

Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.

Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing?
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Old 2008-07-21, 15:58   Link #4075
canis
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i call it as i see it
and thats not what i said
i said if he did use it he would be a monster (which he isnt since he didnt ,as per his character portrail up to this point in the story)
and i said the scene was too remenicent of a rape scene to ignore
and i dont think im the only one who thinks it
Rape? Come on... That's going a bit too far... He wanted information what good would have done it to rape her?
That scene was just a way to create suspense by making us think something like "ZOMG.. He really did it and now they're letting us wait!"
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:02   Link #4076
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.

Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.

Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.

Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing?
I agree Lulu wouldn't rape kallen even if he tries kallen will bust his balls for it. Same with suzaku.

also suzaku would never do that if he did he would simply be hurting kallen out of spite whihc would make him even more dispicable than lelouch.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:04   Link #4077
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1 View Post
I agree Lulu wouldn't rape kallen even if he tries kallen will bust his balls for it. Same with suzaku.

also suzaku would never do that if he did he would simply be hurting kallen out of spite whihc would make him even more dispicable than lelouch.
Anger made him lose reason, he wanted to just find some outlet for it and using refrain because it has a small chance of getting what he wants and using limiting casualties as justification. In the end his strength of character and his resolve not be like Lelouch won out and he did not do anything.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:07   Link #4078
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace and Lelouch was butthurt because that would take away his savior status. So he decided to create a riot and make it fail just so he could, guess what, give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace instead. Why are we still discussing this, by the way? Oh yes, parallelism between Geass and Refrain. I, for one, find this a very interesting comparison.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:12   Link #4079
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The problem wasn't with what Euphie wanted, but with what she was actually providing. Even she knew that it wouldn't be without its difficulties. Lelouch was "hurt" because it made him more vulnerable to Britania. It made it more likely that, not to put too fine a point on it, he and his sister would die at their enemies' hands.

The SAZ wasn't some el dorado where everything would be magically solved. It was a trap. In the end, to spare Euphie's feelings, he agreed to put forth his effort to turn it around and make it real instead of destroying it, but that's what it was.
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Old 2008-07-21, 16:15   Link #4080
bladeofdarkness
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like i said the whole scene was just pointless on suzaku's part
am i glad that he didnt actually drug her becouse he he felt it was what lulu would do
yes (it shows he isnt a monster)
do i think he deserves to be praised for it
not so much
all it proves is that he's not that far gone yet that he would stoop to ANYTHING to reach his goals
its still wrong
it was wrong when he chose to do it
it was wrong when he tried to do it
and it was wrong when he chose not to do it after all
good for him that he's not a monster
but he was still willing to do it right up to that point
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