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Old 2008-07-20, 01:35   Link #261
ReddyRedWolf
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Here's an intersting fact from the last ep. Contrary to our initial assesment implants and cybernetics are wildly accepted, rarely is it illegal on fleets or colonies.

Macross Frontier has adopted a Eco-friendly stance with it's bioplant islands thus those laws of balancing the environment.

Frontier's all natural stance is also reflected on the cybernetics issue.
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Old 2008-07-20, 07:17   Link #262
squaresphere
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I think it was said, Grace choose Frontier because the bio plant are highly effected by the Vajra. It could also be that since there's a lack of cybernetics and that it gives her a much bigger advantage in terms of espionage and counter response.
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Old 2008-07-22, 06:45   Link #263
pkang0327
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How would you rank the top 5 pilots in Macross? Take out Max and Millia because they would be 1 and 2 respectively on everyone's list.

1. Roy Fokker
2. Hikaru Ichijo
3. Isamu Dyson
4. Nekki Basara (dude never fired a shot, sang/played, and never got shot down. Either lucky as hell, or a really good pilot)
5. Milene Jenius (no formal training, only a young teenager, but can still tear things up, purely on native ability.)


I put Roy Fokker as number 1, because he can change the tide in any battle. His flying skills, leadership ability, experience, and charisma is unparalleled.

I put Hikaru Ichijo as number 2, because he was a very good pilot. I think his skills were underestimated purely because Maximillian was his wingman. Hikaru was already an accomplished amateur pilot. Upon enlisting, he proved himself many times, especially on the battle on Mars. After Fokker died, he was the go to guy for critical missions. On a scale of 1-10, Maximillian is a 10, Millia is a 9.5 then I'd say Hikaru was a 9. I think, at the end of Macross DYRL, Hikaru would beat Fokker in a dogfight.

Isamu is a great test pilot. Perfect for the job. He's crazy enough to push himself as close to death as possible. Despite his piloting skill, I can't say he's better than Hikaru. I think Hikaru just comes off as being MORE comfortable in a fighter than Isamu.
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Old 2008-07-22, 07:02   Link #264
.Mero
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Ivanonv tops that list.
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Old 2008-07-22, 09:17   Link #265
Tak
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Originally Posted by .Mero View Post
Ivanonv tops that list.
Bah! One step ahead of me eh! Wait... nah, I thought of him first in a prior first, I STILL WIN!!!

*ahem*

Yeah, Ivanov would be the first amongst that list. Perhaps on par with Max or even better. Watch him in Zero, the man was toying with Roy for kicks.

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-22, 12:58   Link #266
March
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I haven't done a list in a while. I'm going to put some thought into it and see what happens

I know we're supposed to keep Max and Milia out of the race, but any list without them at the top just seems wrong. So I'll put them in their own category then go from there.

Inhuman Champions
1a. Maximillian Jenius
2a. Milia Fallyna

The Upper Echelon
1. Chlore
2. Roy Focker
3. Isamu Dyson & Guld Bowman
4. Nekki Basara
5. Ozuma Lee
6. Hikaru Ichijo & Gamlin Kizaki
7. Alto Saotome & Brera Sterne
8. D.D. Ivanov
9. Mikhail Buran/Michael Blanc

The Regulars
10. Kuran Kuran
11. Nora Polyansky
12. Shin Kudo
13. Emilia Jenius
14. Kinryu
15. Ray Lovelock
16. Docker
17. Kamjin Kravshera & Temjin
18. Gigile
19. Canaria Berstein
20. Gavil

The Cannon Fodder
21. Henry Gilliam
22. Mylene Jenius
23. Hayao Kakizaki
24. Luca Angeloni

Kawamori has stated in interviews that Max and Milia are in a league all their own so there can be no doubt they dominate. Max is like the Einstein of piloting, hence why he's called a genius

Chlore was said to be very competitive with Milia for best pilot of the Meltran and in kill score, suggesting she either equals or sits just below Milia. That kind of accomplishment means Chlore is definitely second only to M&M

Once down to the realistic benchmarks, I still think that Roy Focker is the most accomplished of all the non-super pilots of Macross. He's definitely got the biggest kill score and probably the most experience. He's also an exceptional leader and I couldn't think of any other Macross pilot I'd want to fly under than Roy.

Isamu and Guld were clearly defined as above and beyond most pilots. The YF-19 went through seven pilots before Isamu and his display in the opening of Macross Plus still remains one of the single most impressive engagements in all of Macross. Going up against the bio-neural X-9 Ghost that moves like lightning (even faster than Brera's VF-27 it seems) is an accomplishment all its own and Guld managed to take it down, something even Isamu might not have been able to do.

The story of Macross 7 clearly defines Basara as a plot device and as such it necessitates that we acknowledge his talent as a pilot well above his contemporaries. I have to include him because he is so obviously portrayed as an ace among aces. Having said that, in any other Macross-like combat scenario and without the benefit of Macross 7's absurd plot, It's my opinion Basara would rank near the end of the list and perhaps below even some of The Regulars.

Ozuma is impressive and he's obviously cut from the same mold as Roy Focker. He also went up against arguably the most powerful enemy a human pilot has ever faced - the Vajra - and he did it with a knife As Frontier progresses his kill score continues to soar and he appears to be an inspiring commander.

Hikaru and Gamlin are probably the two most underrated pilots in Macross. Both possess considerable natural talent for flying but story circumstances demanded they play second place to Max and Basara respectively. I think measured in any realistic sense, these two would be acknowledged as top tier pilots and more importantly, as distinguished unit commanders, something a lot of the other pilots on the list lack. War is ultimately about mass battles and while some pilots might be equal or a bit better than these two, those others don't offer the UN Spacy what Hikaru and Gamlin can offer in terms of leadership and strategic skill.

Alto and Brera seem to be in their own league in Frontier, with the exception of Ozuma. It might be too early to tell, but I get the feeling these two are the stars of the show. For now they'll maintain a spot on the list unless something goes askew

D.D. Ivanov gave Roy a run for his money, but I never got the sense that Roy couldn't best him. D.D. seemed to have an affinity for luck that carried him a bit more than his actual skill, but even so his neck-and-neck with Roy means he's definitely to be feared. As Isamu said, luck is a skill

Mikhail seems to be noted as a talent above the norm. While he's definitely a standout and likely deserves a spot on the list, I'm not sure he'd fair all that well compared to the rest so I put him near the end.
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Old 2008-07-22, 13:24   Link #267
squaresphere
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hmmm i like most of the list expect for Mikhail. We really have one piece of info that states he might be better at piloting than Alto. Which is the fact he was the leader chosen for the school squad. Now that could be more due to his cool head and strategic thinking rather than straight piloting.

In battle Mikhail has only been shown as a Gimmicky sniper. Now if he was able to snip while pulling massive aerial dog fights...

Klan has shown that she runs almost as close if not equal to Alto-Hime. The only time she got out maneuvered was with the VF-27. Even if Alto was able to damage the 27 in the same ep, that later fight on Gallia 4 showed luck probably had a huge hand.

Ultimately I think if their positions in the rankings were flipped flopped it would make more sense.
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Old 2008-07-22, 14:36   Link #268
Tak
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Originally Posted by March View Post
D.D. Ivanov gave Roy a run for his money, but I never got the sense that Roy couldn't best him. D.D. seemed to have an affinity for luck that carried him a bit more than his actual skill, but even so his neck-and-neck with Roy means he's definitely to be feared. As Isamu said, luck is a skill
Second episode of Zero was enough to convince me that DD was on top of the list, if not on the same levels of M&M. Just look at the expressions of both pilots. DD is often calm and relaxed, while Roy was often frantic and serious whenever he fought DD. Never mind that DD taught Roy how to fly, and definitely knew Roy's playbook from the first to last page, but whenever DD fights, it looks like he was having ... fun.

Just take the valley run in the second episode of Zero for example. DD had Roy on his 6, the worst position you can ever have in a dog fight, not to mention they were also fighting in a very confined area. DD was in a disadvantageous situation and low on gas, but he was more or less like whatever throughout the entire fight. The only time DD went crazy was when Nora got taken out. Otherwise, he would have just smiled throughout the entire conflict.

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-22, 14:40   Link #269
.Mero
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Damn i miss the Zero dogfights, those where really awesome.
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Old 2008-07-22, 14:55   Link #270
March
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squaresphere
Hikaru out ranked Max Mikhail is likely in charge due to seniority and experience. But the contest between Mikhail and Alto could go either way. However, I've a feeling Alto is going to become the better of the two.

I don't see Kuran Kuran as all that impressive. She ran Alto good, but that appeared more experience than skill. She gave Brera pause, but he clearly sits comfortably beyond her. So far, Alto is the only one who's given Brera a run for his money, though I think Ozuma could best Brera. Ultimately, I'd argue that Alto is still honing his skills.

Sometimes it's hard to measure skill in a developing story, especially with television series. First half of SDF Macross Hikaru was talented but not that great. If someone asked me 15 episodes into SDF Macross if Hikaru was top tier talent, I'd laugh. It wasn't until Hikaru matured and embraced the military instead of resenting it that he truly became a lethal pilot. In the second half of the series Hikaru was a juggernaught. I think Alto is much the same at this point. He's inexperienced and brash, but his potential is rapidly becoming apparent; episode 14 also raised more than a few of the characters eyebrows when they saw Alto make his impressive charge through the ranks of the Vajra to rescue Ranka.

The only one I'm really unsure of at this point is the contest between Luca and Kakizaki. I can't decide which of the two is the worst pilot in all of Macross

Tak
Never much of a fan actually. To me, most of the dogfights in Macross Zero were pretty much the same as far as acrobatics. Shin and Nora looked as wickedly wild as D.D. and Roy. Roy was meant to look pressed for the sake of drama because his overpowering skill makes every battle quite tensionless. Which is one of the reasons Macross Zero was weakened by the inclusion of Roy Focker and necessitated his depowering for the sake of the story (much like super hero teams where the heavies are always weakened so as to allow the other members a chance to be useful). I always felt that D.D. comes on strong but he's got no legs. Roy was always taken back by Ivanov's assaults, but always remained on his feet. For all his skill, D.D. could never seem to make the close against Roy. Roy survived D.D.'s supposed overpowering skill time and time again. As it came down to the wire, Roy would have eventually prevailed and rope-a-doped Ivanov.

Besides, both D.D. and Nora got taken out like chumps in the end. It took three Q-Raus to take Roy down, which he still downed anyway and then flew back before expiring. A fine finish by comparison.

Last edited by March; 2008-07-22 at 15:23.
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Old 2008-07-22, 15:46   Link #271
squaresphere
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Originally Posted by March View Post
squaresphere
He's inexperienced and brash, but his potential is rapidly becoming apparent; episode 14 also raised more than a few of the characters eyebrows when they saw Alto make his impressive charge through the ranks of the Vajra to rescue Ranka.
Yeah i see your point, but I say we throw out his assault on the mothership as Ranka had started singing and the Vajra were obviously distracted.
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Old 2008-07-22, 16:20   Link #272
Tak
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Originally Posted by March View Post

The only one I'm really unsure of at this point is the contest between Luca and Kakizaki. I can't decide which of the two is the worst pilot in all of Macross
Luca is the obvious answer. Kakizaki is actually an ace in his own right. Yeah, he wasn't that great of an ace, but he sure as heck survived more missions and shot down more enemies than Luca probably ever will. Besides, if you go by the original, he died due to an accident in the SDF, not because he intentionally ran into trouble.

On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-22, 16:37   Link #273
glyph
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On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.
Shouldn't that be Sheryl?
OK, given we've only ever seen her in combat that one time.
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Old 2008-07-22, 17:08   Link #274
Tak
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Shouldn't that be Sheryl?
OK, given we've only ever seen her in combat that one time.
*Ahem* Sorry uh, certified pilots.

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-22, 17:16   Link #275
ChronoReverse
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You have to wonder about the level of Basara if he wasn't so hippy about it. Despite that fact he clearly lost (and got his sound booster trashed) by Chloe, Chloe was unable to deal a deathblow to him.

In a dogfight, not counter-attacking when the opportunity presents itself means you'll find yourself in a deeper and deeper rut. Holding your own is easier than not counter-attacking,

Granted, Basara tried his speaker pods but seriously that doesn't compare at all to a gatling gun in terms of both RoF and bullet velocity.
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Old 2008-07-23, 00:26   Link #276
.Mero
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post

[..]

On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.

- Tak
Worst pilot, hardly, worst VF pilot, yes

As a navy fighter, Shin was a damn ace. Inside the VF he was a cluts. mostly because all that stuff was new to him and he had trouble adapting to it.
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Old 2008-07-23, 06:19   Link #277
dahak
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Worst pilot, hardly, worst VF pilot, yes
Not even that. I'm sure there are members of the unnamed cannon fodder squadrons that were worse. Sortie once, Explode.

The worst pilot in Macross probably flew a tan VF-1A [or possibly a VF-171], and we don't remember his death, whoever he was.
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Old 2008-07-23, 07:33   Link #278
pkang0327
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I think Ivanov had the superior machine, that's why Fokker struggled. The VF-0 was designed to be a mass produced fighter. It had to make sacrifices in performance in order to make sure the fighter could be mass produced.

I think, by the end of DYRL, Hikaru surpasses Roy Fokker. At the latter stages of Space War 1, and at the conclusion, Hikaru was the go to guy for impossible missions.

Remember, Hikaru was in a flying circus, and he's been flying (riding shotgun) since he could walk. IMHO, the aerial acrobatics that Hikaru could do would be on par with Isamu Dyson. The only time that Hikaru got shot down was due to friendly fire. Did you see the number of missiles fired from that Daedalus attack?
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Old 2008-07-23, 22:29   Link #279
Burner of Anime
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The only time that Hikaru got shot down was due to friendly fire. Did you see the number of missiles fired from that Daedalus attack?
Er, more than that if it's only counting the times he's been in combat.

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-07-26, 18:52   Link #280
Darial
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One thing I noticed about Macross Frontier is how much the staff likes toying with us with episode titles that doesn't say much and synopsis that are technically accurate but completely hid the ball as to what the real plot is. Not that I'm complaining, since it does make the surprises all that sweeter, but it is fun to look back and see how misleading things actually were (and so we can give future synopsis the real consideration it deserves.... )

So let's take a look starting with episode 10 onwards (1-9 wasn't as bad):

Episode 10: "Legend of Zero"

Ranka is hired to act for a supporting role in the movie, Bird Human, while Miranda Melin, the current Miss Macross, will be the main female protagonist. The movie tells the story of the Macross Zero OAV series.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 11: "Missing Birthday"

Ranka prepares a special gift for Alto's approaching birthday and Alto has a decision he needs to make.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 12: "Fastest Delivery"

Sheryl gives a relief concert for the N.U.N.S. 33rd Naval/Marine Zentradi Fleet at planet Galia 4 (惑星ガリア4), but because of an undisclosed illness she is unable to give her concert, which causes a huge riot among the soldiers.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 13: Memory of Global" (Originally named "Twlight Planet")

Alto & Ranka's plane crashed due to an equipment malfunction, this gaves them a chance to talk for the first time in a long while. Meanwhile, Sheryl and Michael goes out searching for them.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 14: Mother's Lullaby

Following Alto and Michael, Luka is also heading to the battlefield. Before heading to the front, Luka tries to confess his feelings to Nanase. At the same time, Ranka is beginning to recall some of the memories hidden in her mother's lullaby (Aimo). What are the relationships between Ranka, the truth in her memories, Burera, and the Vajra?

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 15: Lost Peace

While Sheryl did temporarily feel better from the illness that led to her concert's cancellation on Galia 4, she was unable to fully recover. As a result, Grace, Sheryl's manager, informed Sheryl that all her work are cancelled until she returns to full health.

Sheryl heard about Ranka's increase in popularity, and felt a strange sense of unease. At the same time, Alto and Ranka are coming to visit her.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Episode 16: Ranka Attack

Alto was summoned to the S.M.S. owner, Mr. Bilra's home. There, Mr. Bilra explained to Alto his personal dream. At the same time, Sheryl, who wants to see Alto with a single-minded determination, escapes from the hospital. Elsewhere, Ranka meets Burera, and finds out that he has been listing to her songs.

What wasn't mentioned:

Spoiler:


Overall, it seems while the titles do make sense once you seen the whole episode, the synopsis were often focused on insignificant plot points and seems designed to mislead us viewer on the wrong tangent.

Additionally, it seems like whichever female lead is not mentioned in the synopsis usually still have a significant role in the episode.

So while reading advance synopsis is fun, I think in the case of Macross Frontier, the important part of the episode is probably the part they didn't mention in the synopsis.
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