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Old 2008-08-02, 18:47   Link #1221
Vexx
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I'll have to give the NAS Bible a look-see. Much of the Dead Sea Scroll (and other data) is more interesting because of the Gnostic data (those books that the Council of Nicea decided weren't part of "the Bible" in 325 AD -- and yes, some of them are pretty loopy and *I'd* have left them on the cutting room floor ).
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Old 2008-08-02, 19:20   Link #1222
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll have to give the NAS Bible a look-see. Much of the Dead Sea Scroll (and other data) is more interesting because of the Gnostic data (those books that the Council of Nicea decided weren't part of "the Bible" in 325 AD -- and yes, some of them are pretty loopy and *I'd* have left them on the cutting room floor ).
Very, very true. Talk of "church fathers" often bothers me severely, because although church leadership was mostly in agreement on a lot, it's clear that it was not totally united. It's clear proof that "early" doesn't mean "right".

Of course, the real litmus test for Gnosticism was its agreement with the Judaism it sprung from, so I still doubt any of it would have made it in. But the "scrubbing" of church history is a constant aggravation.
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Old 2008-08-02, 23:56   Link #1223
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Often, very often, religion is a big contradiction and the people in it are hypocrites. Just like life and the people in it.
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Old 2008-08-03, 00:19   Link #1224
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Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post

Actually, those are things many religious people are very proud of.

Many Christians and Jews, for instance, recognize many of laws, rituals and prohibitions given to the Hebrews as intended to protect them through better social structure, hygiene and safer diet. That isn't really an argument against the belief of the source. As they say, "Man was not made for the Law, but the Law was made for man."
I respect your right to be proud of such traditions. I simply wanted to point out the history behind it.
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Old 2008-08-03, 02:20   Link #1225
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Often, very often, religion is a big contradiction and the people in it are hypocrites. Just like life and the people in it.
This is not the type of attitude we need in this world.
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Old 2008-08-03, 08:20   Link #1226
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I respect your right to be proud of such traditions. I simply wanted to point out the history behind it.
Well, yes, but I thought that it was funny that you posed it as a "challenge". Not much challenging about it.
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Old 2008-08-03, 13:15   Link #1227
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Originally Posted by Gemstar View Post
Often, very often, religion is a big contradiction and the people in it are hypocrites. Just like life and the people in it.
"Often, very often, humanity is a big contradiction and the people in it are hypocrites. Just like life and the people in it."

There, fixed it
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Old 2008-08-04, 01:02   Link #1228
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This is not the type of attitude we need in this world.
Wrong. This attitude is what is needed. Without it then we would be unaware of all the danger around us. Firstly ! We must identify the problem and then solve it. Your way of turning a blind eye to things will only result in people getting target by these wrong doing man has created to directly or indirectly hurt others. All of these things are created by desire such as religion and prejudice. When anyone has an impartial man or is under a group or sect they separate themselves and whatever they have themselves in become the gospel truth to them, then they begin to think they are never wrong and will not place doubt into what they believe only until they have been proven wrong. After all of this is done the people will not seek understanding, they will pretend to in order to get what they want. All of a sudden this has become a great act, a play ! This is the role we must play in order to get what we want thereafter corruption. What I think humans need is love and peace, not the kind of love and peace you think others will like but true love and peace.
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Old 2008-08-04, 03:38   Link #1229
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Originally Posted by Gemstar View Post
Wrong. This attitude is what is needed. Without it then we would be unaware of all the danger around us. Firstly ! We must identify the problem and then solve it. Your way of turning a blind eye to things will only result in people getting target by these wrong doing man has created to directly or indirectly hurt others. All of these things are created by desire such as religion and prejudice. When anyone has an impartial man or is under a group or sect they separate themselves and whatever they have themselves in become the gospel truth to them, then they begin to think they are never wrong and will not place doubt into what they believe only until they have been proven wrong. After all of this is done the people will not seek understanding, they will pretend to in order to get what they want. All of a sudden this has become a great act, a play ! This is the role we must play in order to get what we want thereafter corruption. What I think humans need is love and peace, not the kind of love and peace you think others will like but true love and peace.
Wow... Where did you get all that from "That's not the type of attitude we need in the world"? I don't see where he's saying we should turn a blind eye in his statement. It sounds like he's simply saying the "doom and gloom" outlook isn't good. Have hope in humanity (not religion, as Vexx pointed out) to become better.
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Old 2008-08-04, 12:25   Link #1230
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Religions are supposed to protect and help people and make them happy, yet they seem to bring more abuse and wars than that of racism and other opposition arguments.

That is why I love my life as Athiest. Yes, people can try to get me to join in on their religion, although I am part of none. Therefore no one can oppose me. I was born into a Catholic family though, but my mother wished for me to remain a non-religious person. It is one less worry for me though.
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Old 2008-08-04, 12:45   Link #1231
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Originally Posted by Gemstar View Post
Wrong. This attitude is what is needed. Without it then we would be unaware of all the danger around us. Firstly ! We must identify the problem and then solve it. Your way of turning a blind eye to things will only result in people getting target by these wrong doing man has created to directly or indirectly hurt others. All of these things are created by desire such as religion and prejudice. When anyone has an impartial man or is under a group or sect they separate themselves and whatever they have themselves in become the gospel truth to them, then they begin to think they are never wrong and will not place doubt into what they believe only until they have been proven wrong. After all of this is done the people will not seek understanding, they will pretend to in order to get what they want. All of a sudden this has become a great act, a play ! This is the role we must play in order to get what we want thereafter corruption. What I think humans need is love and peace, not the kind of love and peace you think others will like but true love and peace.
I know enough atheist killers. SO it must be fact the atheism causes people to become killers!

Hell the main religions promote love & peace and introduced it, before the religions it was everyone for themselfs. It is because of religion people have morals.

What makes you think that people without religion won't fuck eachother over? People are warring now fine without using a religion as reason(it's territorial wars most of time) and they did before religion existed.

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Originally Posted by Amray View Post
Religions are supposed to protect and help people and make them happy, yet they seem to bring more abuse and wars than that of racism and other opposition arguments.
It seems that way, because you can't grasp the fact that 84% of the world is religious. You find it weird that are some crazy people between them? Do you have any statistical proof that non religious people are less violent?
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Old 2008-08-04, 13:02   Link #1232
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It seems that way, because you can't grasp the fact that 84% of the world is religious. You find it weird that are some crazy people between them? Do you have any statistical proof that non religious people are less violent?
Actually, I was more or less pointing out the fact that I couldn't give a crap about religion...at all. I have never bothered about it, stressed over it, hardly ever even thought about it unless in a Religious Education lesson, in which I 'had' to take during the first three years of school may I add. But that is not to say that I do not have any beliefs.

Don't make assumptions about me based on one simple-minded post please. And I know for a fact that a persons religion is not what causes a man to murder, rape, or whetever else. I believe in the individual and count everyone as their own person. Black, White, Catholic, Jew, Punk, I don't care, I see them all as their own person whether they fit into a specific group or not. Athiests are no exception either, I see them all as their own personal beings too.
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Old 2008-08-04, 13:18   Link #1233
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That is why I love my life as Athiest. Yes, people can try to get me to join in on their religion, although I am part of none. Therefore no one can oppose me.
Of course people can oppose you. Many conflicts arise over differences between people. If you're not religious, then it could be because you don't follow their beliefs. Even if religion weren't in the picture then it could come from any difference, including the color of your skin, eyes, hair, where you live, what you eat, the language you speak - virtually anything. Differences will always exist among people.

Religion is not a bad thing, nor are the religious bad people. As I've stated before, I think that religion was partially meant to be a grand unifier, something such that everyone could feel a similarity with each other and thus quell conflicts. The trouble arises when people take a "sports team" mentality to their religion. Rather than thinking about the teachings and applying them to their lives, these people pay more attention to what the name of their denomination is. Just as fans of rival sports teams can work themselves up to the point of physical violence, people who focus on their religion purely as an identifier can easily become hostile toward perceived outside beliefs. This is not the fault of the religion itself. If you must place blame, then place it with the people who take religion superficially.
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Old 2008-08-04, 13:18   Link #1234
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Originally Posted by Amray View Post
Actually, I was more or less pointing out the fact that I couldn't give a crap about religion...at all. I have never bothered about it, stressed over it, hardly ever even thought about it unless in a Religious Education lesson, in which I 'had' to take during the first three years of school may I add. But that is not to say that I do not have any beliefs.

Don't make assumptions about me based on one simple-minded post please. And I know for a fact that a persons religion is not what causes a man to murder, rape, or whetever else. I believe in the individual and count everyone as their own person. Black, White, Catholic, Jew, Punk, I don't care, I see them all as their own person whether they fit into a specific group or not. Athiests are no exception either, I see them all as their own personal beings too.
Forgive I seem to have misunderstood you, but hey how did you expect my me to interpretate thise line?
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Religions are supposed to protect and help people and make them happy, yet they seem to bring more abuse and wars than that of racism and other opposition arguments.
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Old 2008-08-04, 13:26   Link #1235
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Forgive I seem to have misunderstood you, but hey how did you expect my me to interpretate thise line?
Haha, okay I'm going to be honest with you. That was just simply a line from Fullmetal Alchemist.

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Of course people can oppose you. Many conflicts arise over differences between people. If you're not religious, then it could be because you don't follow their beliefs. Even if religion weren't in the picture then it could come from any difference, including the color of your skin, eyes, hair, where you live, what you eat, the language you speak - virtually anything. Differences will always exist among people.
Yes, I doubt that people will ever be able to accept other peoples differences, but that is just how our world is. Nothing I can do about it. Even if I were to become Catholic or Jewish their will still always be those whom oppose me. Therefore I would rather stay Athiest and just throw religion aside. I have friends of different religions but we seem to get on like family.

I am white and their will always be some out there that oppose that fact, I am British and their will always be those that oppose that too, I am Athiest and their are opposers against my beliefs, I wear pink shirts and their will always be people that dislike that too...but I am afraid that is just life and we have to accept these things.

A Catholic telling me ,an Athiest, to go and get a religion is like a black racist telling me, a white male, to go and paint myself black. Maybe not to you but that is how I as an individual see it.
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Old 2008-08-04, 14:25   Link #1236
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Of course people can oppose you. Many conflicts arise over differences between people. If you're not religious, then it could be because you don't follow their beliefs. Even if religion weren't in the picture then it could come from any difference, including the color of your skin, eyes, hair, where you live, what you eat, the language you speak - virtually anything. Differences will always exist among people.

Religion is not a bad thing, nor are the religious bad people. As I've stated before, I think that religion was partially meant to be a grand unifier, something such that everyone could feel a similarity with each other and thus quell conflicts. The trouble arises when people take a "sports team" mentality to their religion. Rather than thinking about the teachings and applying them to their lives, these people pay more attention to what the name of their denomination is. Just as fans of rival sports teams can work themselves up to the point of physical violence, people who focus on their religion purely as an identifier can easily become hostile toward perceived outside beliefs. This is not the fault of the religion itself. If you must place blame, then place it with the people who take religion superficially.
Damn, I'd cookie the hell out of that but a Quoted For Great Truth will have to suffice.
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Old 2008-08-04, 14:44   Link #1237
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Wrong. This attitude is what is needed. Without it then we would be unaware of all the danger around us. Firstly ! We must identify the problem and then solve it. Your way of turning a blind eye to things will only result in people getting target by these wrong doing man has created to directly or indirectly hurt others. All of these things are created by desire such as religion and prejudice. When anyone has an impartial man or is under a group or sect they separate themselves and whatever they have themselves in become the gospel truth to them, then they begin to think they are never wrong and will not place doubt into what they believe only until they have been proven wrong. After all of this is done the people will not seek understanding, they will pretend to in order to get what they want. All of a sudden this has become a great act, a play ! This is the role we must play in order to get what we want thereafter corruption. What I think humans need is love and peace, not the kind of love and peace you think others will like but true love and peace.
With all due respect... Wtf? Where the hell did you get all of this from?

And no, this really isn't the attitude we need in life. Ledgem articulated quite well in his post my view on the issue regarding religion.
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Old 2008-08-04, 15:15   Link #1238
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Hell the main religions promote love & peace and introduced it, before the religions it was everyone for themselfs. It is because of religion people have morals.
Wait. Do you seriously believe that, or is it some kind of sarcastic answer?
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Old 2008-08-04, 15:50   Link #1239
Gemstar
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Maybe religion is good maybe it is bad I do not know, how can I know. Sometimes it produces good things and without it people may be misguided. But who's to say they without it they will be misguided ? It is not a fact something will happen with or without it, that all depends on the respecting person involved and influenced by it and we all choose whether we would like to be influenced or involved with something. If one thinks it is a good think to participate in religion then so be it, they are their own person and have free will, therefore they can do whatever with their time and body as they wish, for I am me and they are they. Personally I fine it as a waste as time, I used to pray because I was raised to be a catholic but after time I found it to be very boring and your prayers go unanswered. After that be done it aroused many questions and that was too much thinking and it hurts your head so I just stopped involving myself with anything to do with religion. My way of life is gather yourself more to good and escape yourself from bad; the more good the better. Attitude and opinions are also very confusing so I won't bother with it. What I am saying is nothing in conclusion except what you understand it to be and most of the time people over analyze when what they seek is right in front of their faces. I know why people would over analyze and that is because I too have encountered people like this. They speak in riddles and often say things they do not mean and expect you to figure out what they mean. I distinguish prejudice and desire to be bad and religion promotes that.
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Old 2008-08-04, 18:04   Link #1240
Vexx
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This is a common myth: It is because of religion people have morals.

Morals are a codified outgrowth of social altruistic tendencies that any socialized species has. They most all start with "Don't be a dick." (courtesy: Penny Arcade) and then the rest is window dressing. Sometimes the window dressing gets so thick it damages the window....

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-08-04 at 18:36. Reason: Must stop rambling. Make point and stop, argh!
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