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Old 2008-08-04, 18:45   Link #1241
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This is a common myth: It is because of religion people have morals.
I don't know if I would go quite that far (though I fully admit that your statement is probably true, I am also willing to consider that there is room for debate), but I will say that religion is the perfect way of spreading a socities "moral values" (who would question the words of a God or God's spokesperson ?).
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Old 2008-08-04, 18:53   Link #1242
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
but I will say that religion is the perfect way of spreading a socities "moral values" (who would question the words of a God or God's spokesperson ?).
I want to believe the quotes are there for irony... but either way, unfortunately, it's been used to spread the rulers' "moral values" over any other kind of value whatsoever.

Of course, maintaining some basic rules of decorum ("don't be a prick") is useful for any ruler to maintain the populace under control, and thus I believe religion as we know it was born.
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Old 2008-08-04, 19:34   Link #1243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
I know enough atheist killers. SO it must be fact the atheism causes people to become killers!
And I do know enough muslim who are killers - the Abu Sayyaf muslim bandit group who are terrorizing people here in the Philippines. They kidnap foreigners and wealthy Chinese businessmen and behead those who don't/can't pay.

Don't single out atheism as cause of being a killer, there will always be killers coming from each belief group/religion.
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Old 2008-08-04, 19:37   Link #1244
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I want to believe the quotes are there for irony... but either way, unfortunately, it's been used to spread the rulers' "moral values" over any other kind of value whatsoever.
Don't worry, I was being somewhat facetious in my post (case and point Hitler's Germany...or really any dictator lead country that tosses aside 'universal' moral values). That being said, I still think that Religion is the ultimate carrier for "moral" memes (even Hammurabi's Code was dedicated to either Marduk or Shamash).

Last edited by james0246; 2008-08-04 at 22:33.
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Old 2008-08-04, 20:49   Link #1245
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Old 2008-08-04, 22:30   Link #1246
Gemstar
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Love and peace does not need terming and separation especially if it's into groups or clans. It's one love and one peace. If they are different kinds then we would need to treat each specific group of clan that way. Does anyone see the controversy ?
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Old 2008-08-04, 23:20   Link #1247
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I don't think morals in general would really exist today if it were not for religion. It is because of the morals being put in place by people in authority (Which are based usually on the religions that they follow) that people follow them. Without government your morals go down the drain. Though I dislike the book Lord of the Flies, it shows this quite well. Religion and government set natural order for people, it gave people a reason to not commit evil acts.

So I guess you could say it is society that enforces these morals upon people, but it is religion that sets the guidelines for many of these morals in society.
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Old 2008-08-05, 00:35   Link #1248
bleachfanxd
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Atheist! I think that's most people as well.
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Old 2008-08-05, 01:05   Link #1249
james0246
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Originally Posted by bleachfanxd View Post
Atheist! I think that's most people as well.
Unless I misunderstood what you meant in the in-bold text, you are wrong in your assumption. Something like 85-90% of people in the world have a religion or at least believe in God/Gods/Higher Being. So, most people are not Atheists.
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Old 2008-08-05, 03:31   Link #1250
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Pure philosophy, but I would say the opposite is true when it comes to religion and morality. We do not have morals because we have religion, we have religion because we have morals. Due to the difficulty of explaining why something is "right" and why something is "wrong" by making and spreading a religion with those morals infused into its teachings making it easier to convey to the masses. The concept of God was made up in our own image.

My last post touches on this a bit in a different form of detail.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=331
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Old 2008-08-05, 07:05   Link #1251
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Wait. Do you seriously believe that, or is it some kind of sarcastic answer?
Hmm that statement might have been too strong. I'm not sure what's the deal with other religions, but islam introduced rights to women and even animals(before they where just slaves basically). While saying the faith accounts for all morals, might be a huge overstatement. It deffinetly had an effect on the morals of the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
And I do know enough muslim who are killers - the Abu Sayyaf muslim bandit group who are terrorizing people here in the Philippines. They kidnap foreigners and wealthy Chinese businessmen and behead those who don't/can't pay.

Don't single out atheism as cause of being a killer, there will always be killers coming from each belief group/religion.
It was sarcasm...
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Old 2008-08-05, 10:13   Link #1252
Amray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Don't single out atheism as cause of being a killer, there will always be killers coming from each belief group/religion.
Yes, it really depends on how strongly they respect and belive their religion. I know of a Christian that refuses to watch things such as Death Note, Fullmetal Alchemist...etc and silimar things to them just because they have witchcraft in them, which is 'apparently' offensive to God and the way in which he created us. (Don't ask). But then their are also Christians like my father whom drink, smoke, has had a fair share of fights, has sex before marriage (he has a girlfriend now). I know, these things are not exactly murder or serious crimes, but nontheless a lot of those things go against the bible and Gods teachings.

I'm an athiest, but it is not as though I would go out with a butchers knife when I'm bored and go around mass murdering and decapitating people, just because I know I will not be punished by Gods hand for it. Regardless, I still do sometimes have beliefs about God, I'm not sure if that is because I have grown up around Christians and Catholics on my fathers side of the family, but still..they are there. I have my own beliefs and do not feel the need to follow others.
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Old 2008-08-05, 12:03   Link #1253
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amray View Post
Yes, it really depends on how strongly they respect and belive their religion. I know of a Christian that refuses to watch things such as Death Note, Fullmetal Alchemist...etc and silimar things to them just because they have witchcraft in them, which is 'apparently' offensive to God and the way in which he created us. (Don't ask).
This sort of thinking really doesn't hold up under scrutiny or is even consistent. It has more to do with their leadership creating "bogeymen" or imaginary threats to keep the "flock" close at hand.
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Old 2008-08-05, 13:20   Link #1254
Amray
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This sort of thinking really doesn't hold up under scrutiny or is even consistent. It has more to do with their leadership creating "bogeymen" or imaginary threats to keep the "flock" close at hand.
Well...I did say "don't ask. ^_^;
You will have to exuse me, I am not so strong in the 'religion' department so I wouldn't know. This specific christian though was extremely ....picky shall I say? That is even if he was a christian, and not some stupid liar trying to get some attention and looking for trouble. _
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Old 2008-08-05, 13:28   Link #1255
Gemstar
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Religion could be a conspiracy for all we know for who knows what purpose. To control means to have power over something and if peace is the main concept of religion then why do they need other people to follow their religion ? Through this you get no peace of mind but constant desire. The way people think shows routine and an aim and therefore if you as a person is interacting with another person and you find out they think in pattern or a specific way then they are not genuine their thoughts are not genuine. How can we really express ourselves if we are so fake all of the time ? Where is the true religion they speak of if it limited and bounded by method ? Let us ask how can my religion evolve if I my mind isn't open minded to other views ? Where is all of this taking me when I am only trying the same thing over and over ? If you do not like the outcome of things the same method will only result in the same thing happening again.
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Old 2008-08-05, 13:33   Link #1256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemstar
Let us ask how can my religion evolve if I my mind isn't open minded to other views ?
I wish all atheists were open-minded to religious views.

Because, you know, they aren't all bad. But I guess some of the non-religious have their own routines to follow too.
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Old 2008-08-05, 15:19   Link #1257
Azley
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Atheist -> but I don't minde people for their religion. As long as they don't offend me and try to convince me with their ideals and so on I don't really care.
Everyone has his opinion and thats good - we all should be so tolerant to accept different ways of thinking.
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Old 2008-08-05, 20:30   Link #1258
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amray View Post
Yes, it really depends on how strongly they respect and belive their religion. I know of a Christian that refuses to watch things such as Death Note, Fullmetal Alchemist...etc and silimar things to them just because they have witchcraft in them, which is 'apparently' offensive to God and the way in which he created us. (Don't ask).
There are really people like that??

Don't worry, I won't ask. Would like to comment further but what I would say would almost surely get me into another debate with the catholics here. Would rather watch Shugo Chara than debate. ^^

Quote:
I'm an athiest, but it is not as though I would go out with a butchers knife when I'm bored and go around mass murdering and decapitating people, just because I know I will not be punished by Gods hand for it. Regardless, I still do sometimes have beliefs about God, I'm not sure if that is because I have grown up around Christians and Catholics on my fathers side of the family, but still..they are there. I have my own beliefs and do not feel the need to follow others.
Seriuosly now though, that's almost the same path I've taken.
Grown up in a catholic family (father and mother's side), and enrolled in catholic schools. The catholic teachings just didn't get into my being, just saw it as some sort of fandom (I generally view Catholics as admirers of God and Jesus).
I will only feel the need to follow others if it will be a benefit, I see no benefits in following a religion.
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Old 2008-08-05, 21:43   Link #1259
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Hmm that statement might have been too strong. I'm not sure what's the deal with other religions, but islam introduced rights to women and even animals(before they where just slaves basically). While saying the faith accounts for all morals, might be a huge overstatement. It deffinetly had an effect on the morals of the people.
From there it is a question of faith - were those morals handed down from a higher being, or is religion a fairly inherent stabilizing factor in human society, a tendency handed down through evolution? I would be inclined to lead towards the latter, as I feel such a conclusion requires far less assumptions (Occam's Razor), but I don't rule out the former option.
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Old 2008-08-05, 21:48   Link #1260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
I know enough atheist killers. SO it must be fact the atheism causes people to become killers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
And I do know enough muslim who are killers - the Abu Sayyaf muslim bandit group who are terrorizing people here in the Philippines. They kidnap foreigners and wealthy Chinese businessmen and behead those who don't/can't pay.

Don't single out atheism as cause of being a killer, there will always be killers coming from each belief group/religion.
I think 2H was being sarcastic. He's trying to point out the same thing as you, Liddo-kun, that just because there ae killers in a certain group or belief system, doesn't mean much.....otherwise by that logic, every group/religion would be dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Of course, because your own society corresponds to the whole of humanity, right? Right?!

Nothing's as obvious as it seems. Around half of the world's population lives under extreme poverty circumstances, and in those situations there's not much time to mull on the meaning of the universe, you know. Yes, perhaps they're religious... on the surface. But if you really stop to think about it, they have much more urgent needs, and thus they can't manage to form a concrete intellectual identity.

Please limit first-world societal observations to the first-world, thankyouverymuch.
Bolding above is my own.
Well, I can't claim to speak for the whole world either, but I can speak of my observations of a third world country, Pakistan. Majority of people are religious (although many are not), even if they do not engage in debates or deep philosophical musings on religion. Does that make their belief habitual, or superficial? I can see why some might think so, but it isn't that straightforward.

It's more that one is brought up to take religion for granted, a constant, something to not be questioned or analyzed too deeply. As long as one knows religion well enough to know what's right and what's wrong......then why spend time fishing further? Like you say, there are other exigencies in life.

Yet people will still identify deeply with Islam. For instance, people will get emotional in the name of Islam and injustices committed against other Muslims worldwide. In times of family crisis, you'll see family members spending more time in prayer and contemplation. When a great disaster strikes, religion and "It was Allah's will" is what people hold on to.

Speaking for myself, I'd actually agree with your views. I can't imagine holding a religious view without deep introspection and careful consideration. Yet I see the sincerity and faith of many people who have not gone through such an intellectual search. How they can be serenely confident in crisis, and generous in philanthrophy (although of course, many atheists are as well). As such, I can't bring myself to say that such faith is superficial or on the surface.

I do respect your opinions, which have a consistency of logic behind them. Just explaining my own viewpoint too .

Last edited by Amirali; 2008-08-05 at 22:18.
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