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Old 2008-08-06, 06:56   Link #221
seaghyn16
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Because I'm a sucker for those stories......^_^

Actually, I read an R.A. Salvatore novel once...where a wood elf had fallen in love with a human (this was a side thing, she just told her story to a main character. the novel wasn't about the fairy). Anyway, the human had eventually died of old age, and she had continued living...I don't know...it just seems so sad to be able to live ages and ages beyond that "special someone..."

To be able to live on, and on after that "special someone's passing," it usually would end in the deceased one being forgotten...Eventually Lawrence would fade from Horo's mind until he was a memory...albeit a slight more important one...but in the end he would become just a distant memory of another part of Horo's past....and Horo would go on to love another, as she is able to, for ages....

If this were the case, I think the "Princess Mononoke" ending would be best suited...that they remain close friends until the end, arguing together every once in a while...Lawrence continuing on with his shop, and settling down with someone...Horo perhaps finding a partner from her kind...Sorta sad...but you think Lawrence would want to give everything to Horo, and then have her slowly begin to forget him, moving her love onto another after ages of some form of loneliness?
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Old 2008-08-06, 07:02   Link #222
salv87
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thinking about the posibility of a "Lawrence-like" man in the far far future to comfort her again?
on the other hand, Lawrence was told by Deanna that there were many cases of dieties and humans living together, so who knows..
But still even if they would somehow become a pair.. I don't think much would change in they way they interact.. ^_^
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaghyn16 View Post
To be able to live on, and on after that "special someone's passing," it usually would end in the deceased one being forgotten...Eventually Lawrence would fade from Horo's mind until he was a memory...albeit a slight more important one...but in the end he would become just a distant memory of another part of Horo's past....and Horo would go on to love another, as she is able to, for ages....
would have to agree on that one.. theoretically it one think to live for a few years longer and few hundred ( or thousand) years.. but it just theory, I doubt someone can tell how it's really like living for that long
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Old 2008-08-06, 08:07   Link #223
seaghyn16
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lol, true....

But still...to be able to live for hundreds if not thousands of years after the death of someone important...look back on your past, and think about what you forgot....*oxymoron ^_^*. Find something that was important to you then....And how long has it been maybe? I only have about 10 years to work with. can't remember much else before then...haha.

Even though Deanna said there were stories of some becoming a pair, that wasn't my point...I don't have a doubt they could make a wonderful pair, etc while one of them were alive, but what I'm thinking about...would someone truly, willingly live with someone, knowing that most likely, in their span of life, they would become nothing more than a memory for reference? I don't know...but I think when it comes down to it, being able to spend your life with someone who has a similar time line is truly special, as it makes both parties treasure their time together a little more...if time didn't matter for one of them...it's easy to see wasted moments and the like....idk, it's still theoretical...

I just don't really want them to live on separate time lines, if they become a couple. If they don't, then I'm kinda okay with how it turns out, though most likely I'll probably still cry or something depending on the "ending..."
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Old 2008-08-06, 08:38   Link #224
salv87
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It's becoming a bit one-sided ^_^
Let's look from a different perspective.. If they don;t do anything.. it will inda look like "no candy until you clean your room", that is "no relationship until you Lawrence becomes long-living/Horo gets a shorter lifespan". kinda awkwardif you ask me..
somwhere I heard a phrase "it's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all" even if Lawrence passes away sooner (ehh.. why did I say "even if" ? ^_^ ) Horo would most likely remember all the good things they did together etc, and if she won;t do smth, then she'll just remember being all alone, and I think thats even harder..
Well, I thnik you get what I want to say ^_^
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Old 2008-08-06, 09:04   Link #225
seaghyn16
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Sometimes looking too hard into the future can be a curse...

I know! gosh!!! the author shouldn't have made Horo able to live longer than a human life...and so she should have been wise, because she "inherits" the intelligence of the generations past...like the avatar ^_^, then she could have been bound to the land as a baby, following her mother, who had followed her grandmother, who had had a relationship with that first guy, then her mother who had a relationship with...some village elder ^_^, then Horo, who freed herself from the place, and ended up with Lawrence. That has much more potential...

But no, Horo has to live forever...I also don't think this is a story where Horo will "do" something to have something to remember Lawrence by. The fact she lives on in a different time line, there's bound to be another like her that lives, that might be like Lawrence, but able to become a wolf. (like in the anime, that wolf Horo "faught" with ^_^)

But I'm Pro LawrenceXHoro all the way...it's just kind of sad that Lawrence will one day leave Horo on her own. Horo, with how she's blowing things out of proportion now, would go insane, blaming lawrence for leaving her, etc...how illogical is that?

IDK....this discussion is almost making me want to stop reading the novels...seriously, the thought that LxH can't spend their lives together...
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Old 2008-08-06, 09:28   Link #226
salv87
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they can.. they are doing it from the 1 volume..
the interesting part of it how long it lasts.. ^_^
Seag don't quit, if you do it'll be a lot more lonely here now that B-M hates me
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Old 2008-08-06, 11:07   Link #227
judgment26
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Quote:
"it's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all"
I can't agree more. It's just like the decision to have a child. Even though you know that one day the child will pass away, that normally wouldn't stop you from having one. Why? Because you're creating life, giving it a chance to live and create memories that can be cherished by you as well as by all of those who become associated with that child.

Likewise, even knowing that Horo may outlive Lawrence by hundreds of years, it seems to me a better idea to engage in a relationship and create a set of precious memories together than for Horo to live on for hundreds of years in regret over not having done so.
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Old 2008-08-06, 11:15   Link #228
salv87
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I can't agree more. It's just like the decision to have a child. Even though you know that one day the child will pass away, that normally wouldn't stop you from having one.
I may be wrong about this one, since I don't have a child of my own.. but I would guess that most parents don't think about their child passing away, since the originally plan for him/her to outlive the parents ^_^

but the whole idea is right in my point of view..
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Old 2008-08-06, 11:43   Link #229
Wyvernspur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaghyn16 View Post
FRIGGIN CARP!!! I FRIGGIN CLICKED IT....WHY DID I FRGGIN CLICK IT!!!!

Luckily I only read what happens at the end of Volume 5....but that coupled with your earlier observation....waaaaaaaaaa
The scene at the end of Vol 5 is a touching one which involves alot more than my minor spoiler. So don't worry, you can still look forward to it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaghyn16 View Post
IDK....this discussion is almost making me want to stop reading the novels...seriously, the thought that LxH can't spend their lives together...
Don't make any assumptions about the ending! While (IMO) there have been several hints drop pointing towards an eventual gracious parting ... nothing is set in stone atm. How did Horo become a Sage Wolf anyway? Perhaps Lawrence can become one as well (in Yoitsu?), and the 2 can spend the next few decades/centuries working towards the economical dominance of medieval europe (Let me dream XD).
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Old 2008-08-06, 11:56   Link #230
salv87
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and btw, this all is in v5 as you said... that means we have 3 (i think) more volumes ahead, so there's need to worry now..
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Old 2008-08-06, 11:58   Link #231
Wyvernspur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judgment26 View Post
I can't agree more. It's just like the decision to have a child. Even though you know that one day the child will pass away, that normally wouldn't stop you from having one. Why? Because you're creating life, giving it a chance to live and create memories that can be cherished by you as well as by all of those who become associated with that child.

Likewise, even knowing that Horo may outlive Lawrence by hundreds of years, it seems to me a better idea to engage in a relationship and create a set of precious memories together than for Horo to live on for hundreds of years in regret over not having done so.
That's an easy stand to take from a human point of view because life is so fleeting

Try to see things from Horo's POV though ... if I could live for hundreds and hundreds of years, and had to see generations of friends/companions die before me, I would probably be afraid of emotional attachment as well.
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Old 2008-08-06, 12:04   Link #232
salv87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyvernspur View Post
That's an easy stand to take from a human point of view because life is so fleeting

Try to see things from Horo's POV though ... if I could live for hundreds and hundreds of years, and had to see generations of friends/companions die before me, I would probably be afraid of emotional attachment as well.
and if you could have a baby from the person you love who would also have a very long lifespan (maybe not eternal, but still veeery long ^_^) ?
In v3 I think (maybe I'm mistaken and it's my imagination) when Lawrence and Horo have a scandal, Horo actually says smth about her still being all alone, and she actually start talking about having a baby who would be with her..
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Old 2008-08-06, 12:29   Link #233
Vexx
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The amount of things and details that fade in a few decades is astounding, much less hundreds of years. In the old Heinlein books about Lazurus, the thousands year old even discusses how he had to restructure how he remembered the past because a linear narrative just fell apart.

You have to think "buddhist" when you view relationships. They are having a relationship *now* - living in the *now* becomes much more important if you have a clue as you age. I keep in mind that every single time I bid adieu to someone it might be the last time I ever see them. Horo and Lawrence have the same problem Aragorn and Arwen had -- but they lived as they could and yeah, it was bitter for Arwen.

There is several ways the author could take this (mostly bittersweet) and since its an Asian authored novel, I'm not counting on a anything better than a bittersweet ending.
That seems to be a constant theme in much of the literature.
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Old 2008-08-06, 17:09   Link #234
FlareKnight
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Well I'm on the side of going for your happiness now and deal with the rest later. Besides its not like Horo is immortal or anything. Sure she has a really long lifespan, but we're not talking things like Elf level. Not to mention she's already been around for hundreds of years as it is. So while she would outlive Lawrence by a wide margin its not too extreme. Though I guess it depends on what you define as extreme.

Unless its due to some extenuating circumstances one member of a couple is very likely to outlive the other. Be it a few months, years, or decades. Sure people don't live hundreds of years, but eventually you do lose people. Sadly one needs to have the resolve to build relationships even knowing that. Even when Lawrence passes if the journey goes well she isn't going to be alone. Should hopefully reunite with some of the others. While its not the same, it is still nice to have those bonds to support you.

At the end of the day Lawrence is going to die. There is already a forming bond between them. Whether they take it forward or not isn't going to change his fate or that there will be a loss for Horo. Though of course the pain of the loss will e seriously magnified. But just a question of whether its worth having the best of the good times or not. Anyways its a long trip ahead for those two. How the story eventually concludes should be interesting.
Spoiler for Volume 3 Chapter 5:
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Old 2008-08-06, 18:44   Link #235
Darknemo2000
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Its true a relationship almost always bring pain as the are bound to loose the other part eventually )or be lost ourselves). But because of that you should not run away from closeness or relationship.

In terms of anime we can see this problem impersonated by Asuka Langley Sohryu from Evangelion who fought the pain of loss by trying to not have any closeness with anyone. Even if they became her 'friends' they always became friends of her fake-self but sadly her fake-self became part of her true self eventualy which made it doubl
e as troublesome once she started to have real feelings for Shinji.

Back to SaW, it indeed makes the ending very interesting since even the not-resolved ending would have to have a sad tone to it as Horo would still oulive Lawrence by quite a bit (not just few years or decades at most as it happens with normal humans).
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Old 2008-08-06, 19:47   Link #236
judgment26
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Quote:
I may be wrong about this one, since I don't have a child of my own.. but I would guess that most parents don't think about their child passing away, since the originally plan for him/her to outlive the parents ^_^
Ok, maybe not the best comparison, but I have in fact encountered at least a couple of people who take that as a reason for not wanting to have children. Of course, such people are quite rare.

Quote:
Try to see things from Horo's POV though ... if I could live for hundreds and hundreds of years, and had to see generations of friends/companions die before me, I would probably be afraid of emotional attachment as well.
I think that depends on the person though...I definitely see your point, but given several hundreds of years to live, I'd probably establish connection after connection and dwell upon those memories rather than spend my life in solitude. Sure, the death of a loved one well before my own time is up would cause me much grief, but the pain of desiring to love yet not being able to is, to me, infinitely worse.

But then again, since I haven't and can't truly live for centuries, I guess this is all just theoretical.
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Old 2008-08-07, 00:21   Link #237
Masanori Ota
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How does Spice and Wolf end?


With Lawrence and Horo riding a cart into the sunset, that's how. And I wouldn't mind one bit. Not even a little.

I'd frame the illustration, in fact, and put it above the fireplace in my secluded mountain dream home.
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Old 2008-08-07, 01:08   Link #238
seaghyn16
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Let's see...is there any information on how old Horo is now?

I want to do a bit of easy math to figure some stuff. ^_^

To Lawrence, she looks like she's 14-15-ish. I don't know if horo can change how old she looks, when "going human," but if not, then it's safe to assume she ages at a rate of..what?

If she has lived for let's say 300 years for far, and appears to be 15, then we'll make a ratio that every 20 Human Years that pass, Horo ages 1 year.

Lawrence is 25 now. Remember he talked about the wheat villages living to 70 at best. Let's say he can somehow make it to 85. That's another 60 years for Lawrence. Horo will age 3 years by that time, and appear to be 18 years old....(haha). Anyway, at this point, Lawrence dies. How many years does Horo have left? Let's say Horo can live to be 88, for the sake of this. She then has another 70 of her years, which is approximately another 1,400 years that Horo has left. For a grand total of 1700 years. Consider Horo having lived through the 300AD years, to today. I don't know about you, but to Lawrence, if he were to look at it this way, he might be so afraid that Horo would forget him, and hardly even remember his face, that he doesn't want that.

However, if Horo can continue loving Lawrence, and never forgot him, never turning to another, always remembering him....Lawrence wouldn't be burdened with loving someone who turned the relationship they had into trash.

If Horo can truly, truly love Lawrence, to the point where she can go a millenium and 4 centuries without looking at/ needing another, that's where the future lies.

Vice versa, Lawrence needs to be so committed, to where he could go a millenium and 4 with only his memories of Horo...

Anyway, that's my take. If they end up having a relationship just to make some good memories, I'm going to be kind of disappointed. It should be deeper, and forever weld their souls together for eternity.

^_^
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Old 2008-08-07, 01:26   Link #239
seaghyn16
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o no o no oh noooooooo.....

that's the end of the cliffhanger...oh noes oh noes......



I can't take it...THAT WAS TOO AWESOME!!! I'M FREAKING OUT HERE!! AHHHHH

I really feel like crying...I almost want to see what Horo would do if Lawrence simply left all his belongings, everything...and headed north...always, into the north....(Diablo II, wanderer...the east, always, to the east...^_^)

keeping just the coins so he can pay for the food he needs to eat, etc. until finally he arrived at Yoitsu, and then he began hunting for the other beings from Horo's tales. The friends she had known.
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Old 2008-08-07, 02:41   Link #240
salv87
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about Horo's age.. there was a discussion somewhere.. and I think they reached a conclusion that Horo was a bit over 700 years old..
about the math, again I don't remember where, but the words "she chose the appearance of a young girl" keep popping out in my mind.. and I don't remember where I read them.. maybe in the novels, where someone tells the legend of Horo, as she sometimes visited town.. I'm not sure.. But if this is true, then we can't calculate anything..
I don't know about Horo and and Lawrence, but I always live according to the "solve problems as they occur" credo.. That doesn't mean I never think into the future or don't look at the consequences though ^_^

PS Seag, and if they have a relationship to have a relationship to make some good memories and say.. a baby that takes to the father..
hehe.. just imagined a chibi-lawrence with a grey tail and ears.. looks kinda cute (with or without beard I wonder ) ^_^
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