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Old 2004-01-29, 19:39   Link #81
SilverLeafTree
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Some more things occured to me:

When Layla and Volg begin fighting in ep 13, she uses a Martian-style fighting taught to her by Cross. Since Cross and Volg were former comrades, it is predictable since Volg is well acquainted to the style.

Perhaps that defensive stance which broke Volg's sword was more of a tribute to Cross than an actual technique. If it was an actual defensive move, Volg would probably be able to predict it, but he seemed quite surprised by her parry.

Layla's dropping of her weapons symbolized a detachment from her and Cross. She realized that she could not defeat Volg with Cross' style. Obviously, she tried to work with Cross' style as far as possible before giving up, revealing her deep respect for the man and his fighting.

The change in technique represented a change in Layla's person. She was changing from the cold, distant, dictatorial Martian style that was so tainted by blood to the familiar, motherly, protective style of her own. When she changes, she is finally able to defeat Volg and protect Nei, revealing that you cannot protect purity (Nei's innocence) with impurity (Cross' fighting style [I say that it is impure because all of the Original Dozen probably have stained their hands in blood in some way, Volg is an extreme example of this when he admits "I am a murderer". Also, the main motive of Cross' teaching was to get revenge upon Volg for destroying the spaceship.]). The only way to protect something as pure as Nei is with the organic, inexplicable love like that of a mother.

What do you guys think? More discussion plz, we still haven't resolved the issue of the red moon!
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Old 2004-01-29, 22:47   Link #82
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Do anyone know why they said Layla is the reason why there were no more children being born today?
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Old 2004-01-30, 19:17   Link #83
GarBhaD
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Wow, I watched the last ep and left me shocked and with plenty of questions. Lots of thanks to SilverLeafTree for the explanation. It helped a lot. But I have much more questions to answer, yet.
Why did Layla protects Nei? Why do they join forces in the first episode? If she hates dolls, why doesn't she attack her? At first, Nei is like a doll, in the 2nd ep Speedy makes something in her kneck and all the panthers detected her as a Doll. But thorough the series she transforms. Why is that? Didn't they say that she was born from two Barbaroi? I guess the bad guys pursue her to find out to make more children :P

Now, about the Red Moon. Like someone said before, I too think there's people in that place. At the beginning of the 12th episode, we can see Volk and his servant talking about sleeping-people, cold-sleep and the Red Moon.
I think the spaceship (in the past, with young Leyla) traveled from the Red Moon to Mars. But the people from Mars revolted with Volk as their leader (we saw him on the screens of the ship) and they killed everyone who came from there. The reason why they revolted and despised the people from the red moon is beyond me, though. Volk speaks about protecting his people. Maybe they tried to do some kind of experiment on them?

Any idea about it?

Last edited by GarBhaD; 2004-01-31 at 02:45.
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Old 2004-01-30, 22:14   Link #84
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What it could have ment.

Ok im sorry if i come off wrong on this but i really liked avenger i thought it was good and i half expected and ending that made you think.... ok the story is very vague they make you figure out alot of things for yourself thats a given. At the end of the episode if you notice she dissapears and later on you see a grave with tags... I thought she survieved but i talked to a friend of mine and what he said is pertty good theme wise. She a ghost... jupiter mentions this in case you missed it when they fight he states she is a ghost. It seems like hes talking metophoricaly but he might be serious... cross mentions finding her on an escape pod crying that her back hurt for days...(You note that no one else survives and its a big escape pod almost like a ship.) days without food or water would kill you espicaly on mars its a desert. It also explains why she refused to take property the dead can own nothing.
Final point... the name the show is called avenger if hes right then she comes back from the dead to avenge her death and the death of all those she knew. I dont like that theory but it holds pertty good as for the moon coming to wipe out mars...i think it ends up in orbit because somethign is mentioned about the moon coming to create a new home.
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Old 2004-01-31, 00:03   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor
Ok im sorry if i come off wrong on this but i really liked avenger i thought it was good and i half expected and ending that made you think.... ok the story is very vague they make you figure out alot of things for yourself thats a given. At the end of the episode if you notice she dissapears and later on you see a grave with tags... I thought she survieved but i talked to a friend of mine and what he said is pertty good theme wise. She a ghost... jupiter mentions this in case you missed it when they fight he states she is a ghost. It seems like hes talking metophoricaly but he might be serious... cross mentions finding her on an escape pod crying that her back hurt for days...(You note that no one else survives and its a big escape pod almost like a ship.) days without food or water would kill you espicaly on mars its a desert. It also explains why she refused to take property the dead can own nothing.
Final point... the name the show is called avenger if hes right then she comes back from the dead to avenge her death and the death of all those she knew. I dont like that theory but it holds pertty good as for the moon coming to wipe out mars...i think it ends up in orbit because somethign is mentioned about the moon coming to create a new home.
Interesting theory but I don't think Layla is a ghost. Remember she was saved by Cross and they both escaped in a pod together. Cross then trained her to learn how to survive on Mars. Layla is ALIVE and still is. As for Layla leaving at the end of ep13 really boggles my mind. Why did she have to leave? Doesn't she love Nei? Its obvious Layla has changed through the time she spent with Nei. Now what the hell is she gonna do now? Die in peace in the Martian desert alone now that she has avenged her family and peoples deaths. That ending just sucks in my opinion. Don't even get me started about the red moon. I spent enough time trying to figure this series out already. Iím tired trying to figure out this series onto the next series.
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Old 2004-01-31, 01:47   Link #86
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Quote:
Why did Layla protects Nei? Why do they join forces in the first episode? If she hates dolls, why doesn't she attack her? At first, Nei is like a doll, in the 2nd ep Speedy makes something in her kneck and all the panthers detected her as a Doll. But thorough the series she transforms. Why is that? Didn't they say that she was born from two Barbaroi? I guess the bad guys pursue her to find out to make more children :P
The first question I think is explored sufficiently in the episode when Layla meets with Cross and he asks her as to why she saved Nei. Layla cannot come up with an answer, even though she is talking to Cross(Cross, as Layla's teacher, is the person she is the most comfortable with in the whole anime). Perhaps she had an instinctive motherly impulse, perhaps she felt sympathy for Nei, perhaps she was fulfilling some kind of destiny of hers, perhaps a mix of the above, or maybe something completely different at all. What you're supposed to get from this is that affection for another is inexplicable and irrational, not something that is based on logic or reason.

Layla in the first episode seems to have some kind of premonition as to who and what Nei is. This is seen when she is reminded of Nei when she glances at one of the serving dolls quickly. It could be that she already knew exactly what Nei was already or it could be that she was subconsciously aware of it. Either way, Layla accepts Nei very easily(compared to others) and quickly becomes Nei's guardian angel, suggesting that she knew either beforehand or immediately thereafter that Nei was a real human, not a doll. The reason as to why she did this has already been explained in the above paragraph.

In episode 2, Speedy just modified the identification collar(ID collar) on Nei. All dolls had an ID collar in the story I believe. We even see the Panther's ID collars on their staff weapons once they were defeated by Layla in episode 2. What Speedy did was he just hacked into Nei's ID collar (which would obviously be illegitimate) using his doll manipulator tool so that Nei's ID collar would be recognizable by Panthers. This was what caused them to stop hunting down Nei.

Nei's transformation is attributed to Layla's motherly protection of her. I think Westa makes a comment about this near the end of episode 13, but I'll have to rewatch the episode myself before elaboration...

Keitaro20:

I think that Layla will search for a new purpose in life. This will be a long journey, she has no family or friends to speak of, Cross is dead, and there is little to do on Mars. However, she will be able to survive due to her impressive skills. She obviously would not be able to fill any usefil niche in a growing society like that of Mars right now. However, what she does afterwards is not as important since she has already accomplished her two main goals in life (Avenge her family, protect Nei). As stated by Ori, Nei needs an education and deserves an easier life, something that Layla will definitely not be able to provide for him. Westa described Layla as being the "strong thorns" protecting Nei, and once Volg's ambitions are out of the picture, Layla realizes that it would be best for Nei to live on without her. You are of course entitled to your opinion of the ending, but IMHO the ending is very fitting and realistic for this kind of series.
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Old 2004-01-31, 19:37   Link #87
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I'm still a little....well, really really confused about why Westa said that Layla is the reason children are not born on Mars. The first thing that I thought was that the reason Volk killed all the people on the ship was because they would cause the people on mars to become sterile..? like a disease or something...i know it sounds weird, but thats the only thing I can think of..
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Old 2004-01-31, 21:05   Link #88
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Wow. I gotta say this ending.. disappointed me a bit. Why? Because Layla made a huge fuse over Nei for about 10 episodes, and at the end she just leaves her there crying.

But I do have mixed feelings. I like unexpected things, and this was a little bit unexpected. We all knew Layla was messed up from the beginning, but I thought with Nei that the whole point of the series was for her to find purpose other than revenge and that purpose was Nei. But when Nei became a female, she just laughs and walks off. I understand why she didn't want the leader position, but why did she leave Nei.. maybe she believes that she cannot be a mother or provide Nei with a good life without of her hatred or otherwise mental scars. But Nei was tagging along with her for a good while and still loved her... Oh well.

I don't think Layla will ever find her purpose (probably just said in hope of another season). I can't think of one. The ending was a little confusing. I think Layla killed herself. Because, if you remember the ending sequence from other episodes, Layla holds a knife to her throat in that same cemetary. Her tag and cape were also placed on the cross with children around it. I guess it was hers? Then they show her blood stained hands (this must mean it was right after her fight with volk) and she is walking off.. to the cemetary to kill herself?

Ah, whatever.. 6/10.
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Old 2004-01-31, 21:24   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michipoo
I'm still a little....well, really really confused about why Westa said that Layla is the reason children are not born on Mars.
Which fansub did you watch? Anime Source has it like this:

"Layla Ashley, it's all thanks to you. Children could no longer be born in the Domes. But then Nei came, born to Barbaroi parents. This child is like a ray of hope to us. And that hope has just been realized. The proof that humans who have lost Earth can still take root on this red planet."

That makes a lot more sense and from what I can make out it's a more accurate translation than some other fansubs. Westa isn't blaming Layla for the lack of children, she's saying that Nei survived because of her. Nei is proof that there is both life and a future outside of Domes.
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Old 2004-02-04, 13:37   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxguru
Which fansub did you watch? Anime Source has it like this:

"Layla Ashley, it's all thanks to you. Children could no longer be born in the Domes. But then Nei came, born to Barbaroi parents. This child is like a ray of hope to us. And that hope has just been realized. The proof that humans who have lost Earth can still take root on this red planet."

That makes a lot more sense and from what I can make out it's a more accurate translation than some other fansubs. Westa isn't blaming Layla for the lack of children, she's saying that Nei survived because of her. Nei is proof that there is both life and a future outside of Domes.

I watched the Anime-Source fansub and was mostly happy with it, but the sentence Westa says about Nei, something like "Nei has secretly been observing our society, until now" really confused the heck out of me. When I watched the CG fansub it was translated differently, something like "Nei hasn't chosen a gender, until now".

In either case I'm a bit confused as to why Layla asks Nei "Is that correct?" and then both cry and Layla rejects Nei and leaves... Did Nei choose to be Male and that maybe meant Layla was no longer needed to protect him?

About the red moon, I also got the impression there were people on it. At least the spaceship Layla was on _came_ from the moon so there must've been people there then... But maybe that spaceship was the _last_ of the people on the moon because it became unlivable?!

About the tags on the cross - I sure hope she just dropped it there and kept going, maybe as the symoblic death she's been wishing for the whole series.

All in all, great show.
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Old 2004-02-16, 20:01   Link #91
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Avenger question,

What's the romaji for kill me, if you can?
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Old 2004-02-16, 22:25   Link #92
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Depending on what you mean, that would be "kiru mii" or "(w)atashi (w)o koroshite".

EDIT : Sorry! Reading your thread title, and remembering Avenger, I just understood that you want the romaji for the entire sentence "kill me if you can". I don't know how to add the "if you can" in Japanese. Somebody else will have to help you. ^_^
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Old 2004-02-17, 08:56   Link #93
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Thanks anyway..
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Old 2004-03-06, 01:26   Link #94
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Well, let me write down what i think is the meaning of this anime.

*****

warning, much reading ahead

******


Iíll start with a short, somewhat chronological, summary of what happened:

The planet Mars had been succesfully colonized bij humans, though be it only in domes, outside life is still being worked on (Cross working with his plants and finally taking the risk of -succesfully- going outside). Children are being born inside the dome and itís a happy and good place to live.

Then for some reason the moon comes close and disaster looms. Which moon? I personnaly think the moon from earth is a possibility since the ship that carried Layla came originally from earth and then from that moon to Mars. The original dozen decided that they cannot harbor those extra people for some reason and decide to shoot them down. It is from then that there are no more children being born. (The timespan between that ship going down and the endfight is 13 years, according to Vespa:Ē13 years ago, Volk began to walk the path of demonsĒ)

But with the barbaroi who had nothing to do with taking down that ship one child (Nei) is born. Mars is making a new start, but not with the original people.

This child is protected by another child, that ironically should have been killed with that ship (Layla).

The original dozen must pay for their sins, especially Volk, and be removed to make a new start for humans at Mars, which is symbolized by Nei and her Ďmaturityí.

As for the characters and that red moon:

As for Nei, I think she stand for the life that the planet Mars can give. This is mainly because in the beginning she isnít alive at all, she is a doll. When we find out that she s a girl she is just a 10 year old girl. As the red moon comes closer she getís ill and in the hospital she changes from blond to pink haired. During that last fight her transformation is completed when both her eyes become pink (why pink? Itís the color closest to the red of Mars) Iíve seen the Anime-Keep subbed version and Vesta says there that ďNei has been sexually immature. But now she is....Ē Meaning there can and will be life again, not just from Nei, since she is a symbol for life at Mars in general.

But besides Nei, Volk also stands symbol for life at Mars. He was the leader of the original dozen and only after they stained their hands no more children were born. When his body is damaged the surface of mars is ripped open as well, bringing fort water (which is needed for and symbolizes life). But besides that, both his and Vespaís bodies needed more and more care as the moon came closer. Cross (who was opposed to shooting down that ship) didnít need that at all...

For the both of them (Nei and Volk) counts that they stand symbol for life at mars, though be it for different people. They even seem to share pain (Nei felt pain as Layla hurt Volk) and i think she could even have been killed when Layla had pulled through and had killed Volk (I think Layla realised that and thatís why she pulled her hand back, letting Volk live...). And they both react to Mars: as Volk is bleeding and mars is filled with water and starting to live and all, then Nei feels better as well. Volk realises it too when he looks at Nei when he has lost the fight and looks in her eyes. He sees that Nei and Mars live and that he has to die in order for them to grow more. Thatsís why he jumps, he does love Mars and itís people and therefore he sacrifices himself...

Layla is the victim of the decision by the Original dozen that also heralded the end of children being born on Mars. As such she is a child of the end of Mars (a population without children would eventually grow old and die). Besides that she is the one that lives to Avenge the death of the innocent people aboard that ship, thereby also cleaning the guilt of the people of Mars. It is quite possible that she is indeed a ghost. Not in a Casper the friendly ghost way, but like in that she has been granted life temporarily so she can Avenge their deaths. This kind of Avenging ghosts are more common in literature and movies. That way it would be her own grave among the other graves of the people onboard that ship. It's possible she is a ghost, but not necessary i think.

As for her (maniacle) laughing, i guess that was just a sort of cynical reaction to her realisation that she had protected life when she had just wanted to kill those people. (it would be even more ironical if she had done this as a ghost)

That red moon and Layla seem to have a somewhat similar connection as Nei and Mars have. The red moon and Layla first come to mars at the same time (as a result of the destruction of earth?) and the 2nd coming of that moon also coincides with Laylaís arrival and both are expected to bring death. Though as Layla doesnít come there anymore just to kill those people but instead to save Nei, so does the moon change from going to put Mars to a destructive end into being the catalyst for the water inside Mars to submerge ard bring life. I guess that is most apparent in that Barbarian with the blond hair (Garcia) who reacts quite surprised to that sunlight: ďhey, that wasnít supposed to happen...Ē. Again that would mean that a Ďkiller of lifeí changed into a protector of life, just like Layla.


Well, this is just my opinion about this anime. I must say that reading your takes on this anime helped me understanding it a lot

[edit]Whoa, it's 7 AM here and i seriously need to get some sleep... [/edit]

Last edited by Makje; 2004-03-06 at 01:43.
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Old 2004-03-06, 02:57   Link #95
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I think this is one of the most messed up ending. The only thing I understand is that Volk lost the fight, but he won on a bigger scale... and Layla won the fight, but lost Nei...

what's the matter about Nei's gender? Is she/he an evolution of human beings? what about the people in hibernation on the moon? I think the story goes : Earth went KABOOM, the people on Moon went in hibernation and tried to get to Mars. they sent a messenger ship (which Layla was on) to Mars, but Volk decided that Mars can't sustain these refugee, so he blow up the messenger ship. right?

I guess Layla in the end completed her journey of protecting Nei, so as Cross suggested, she went on a new journey, this time for herself...

the music at the end is so strange, it seems they pieced all various music from Noir, .hack and Avenger together to make a new strange song...
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Old 2004-03-06, 06:02   Link #96
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Wow makje, your explaination really helped, I think you're right about most of it. This just makes me like the series much more because now I understand how well put together it is. thanks a lot!
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Old 2004-03-15, 13:00   Link #97
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Barbaroi

The thread lives once again!! Oh, and an interesting thing I read up on my AP Euro text...

The term "Barbaroi" was used by ancient Greeks to describe other peoples which they dominated in their empires. This was because their language seemed to sound like "bar bar" to them. Of course, the word "barbarian" was derived from this.

The Greeks saw themselves as a greater race. Their society was structured around city-states and they believed that it was natural for Greeks to be free and have liberties. However, they believed that the surrounding barbaroi societies were there to be naturally dominated and ruled, since they seemed to be constantly dominated by warring factions anyway.

I'm not sure how this completely corresponds to Avenger... there is no iron fist domination over the barbaroi as there was in history. However, there is a general idea of "barbaroi" and "non-barbaroi," and the people do not hesitate to use that card when needed (as when Layla was rejected from the city for killing a doll). Barbarois in Avenger are treated with respect but are also seen as distinctly different, very similar to the Japanese treatment of foreigners in their country.

Any ideas on this?
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Old 2004-04-26, 13:51   Link #98
Flippy
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I started the series a month ago and I've been spreading out that episodes because it's just one of thouse series. There's tons of times when I was asking my self what the hell is going on but I like being kept in the dark alittle, that's apart of the fun of this series. Also it's not like I fall a sleep due to the series since there is great animation and action ever other episode. The music is a corny sometimes but it helps make the series just like it did in .hack//sign. I noticed that Avenger and .hack//sign where by the same creator and if I had to choose between the 2 series it would have to be Avenger. I might cosplay Layla one of these day, that's how much I like the series. It's not the best anime I've seen but it's entertaining.
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Old 2004-04-26, 15:02   Link #99
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It's one of my favorite series. Although I also loved .hack//Sign, Noir, and am loving Madlax... but it's still amazing!

It's also where my namesake is from

Last edited by Fighter Volk; 2004-04-27 at 20:36.
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Old 2004-04-27, 12:01   Link #100
dreamless
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it's a so-so anime IMO, great music, though not really fitting the situation, like sometimes when there's nothing happening suddenly there's an intense music, and when the music stops when they start the fight @_@

and the ending got to be one of the most confusing anime endings ever. It's not something that hard to understand, but rather a lot of stuff suddenly come out of the blue without any hint and then without any explanations...
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