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Old 2008-08-11, 12:23   Link #81
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellaya_dw View Post
Problem is that the US newsmedia presents this in such a biased and one sided way.... Its all Russia's fault and Georgia is a perfect saint. Here in Russia I can see what all sides think about this conflict.
No offense, but Russian media isn't known for being unbiased...or at least without repercussions from your central government.

That hardly means Georgia is a faultless victim -- as far as we currently know, they're the ones who start the war after all; and yes, there is a lingering Russophobia in the West that Putin's successes in the global stage and his internal policies did not help alleviate. On the other hand, that doesn't mean your media is being better at fair reporting than CNN or (Xenu forgive me) Fox either -- I suspect it might in fact be worse, since your country is one of the key participants in the conflict and therefore very much has a stake to convince the world and its own people of one point of view over another.

The US media is just out for profit and sensationalism as usual, a far less "weighted" concern IMO.
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Old 2008-08-11, 13:06   Link #82
gabbytay
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
I'm curious if Russia will shoot down a U.S. transport plane, that would probably be enough to send troops into Georgia.
I'd doubt it would happen. If it does then your U.S police will come and save Georgia for the "evil Russians"

U.S stronger than Russian... That's pure bullshit. You wont know till a war ends.
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Old 2008-08-11, 13:10   Link #83
Amray
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Originally Posted by gabbytay View Post
I'd doubt it would happen. If it does then your U.S police will come and save Georgia for the "evil Russians"
Not to mention probably the whole N.A.T.Organization following them. -__-
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Old 2008-08-11, 13:20   Link #84
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Because of what happned to Georgia last week, I think it will only hasten Ukraine's entry to N.A.T.O.

Ukraine is the 2nd most powerful country in the Commonwealth of Independent States.
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Old 2008-08-11, 14:24   Link #85
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Originally Posted by gabbytay View Post
U.S stronger than Russian... That's pure bullshit. You wont know till a war ends.
You're right, because both country's nukes will destroy all indiscriminately.

Not counting nukes, the U.S. is much more powerful than Russia though (F-22 Raptor Air superiority anyone?). But, like I said, that doesn't matter. Besides, neither wants to fight each other.

I like how both Russia and Georgia give completely different accounts on what is happening. I guess we can't know without actually being there.
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Old 2008-08-11, 14:28   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Orchunter226 View Post
You're right, because both country's nukes will destroy all indiscriminately.

Not counting nukes, the U.S. is much more powerful than Russia though (F-22 Raptor Air superiority anyone?). But, like I said, that doesn't matter. Besides, neither wants to fight each other.

I like how both Russia and Georgia give completely different accounts on what is happening. I guess we can't know without actually being there.
the US has the tech edge but currently as it stands the exhausted US military cannot beat a fresh Russian Military in what is practically thier own backyard.

It is also a moot point anyway. Even if the US is willing by the time it has shifted the necessary manpower and materials to georgia the war would have been over.
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Old 2008-08-11, 14:35   Link #87
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All that is non-sense!!! We all know that Putin want is the natural resources for Gazprom. Everything else is just an excuse get those resources.
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Old 2008-08-11, 14:38   Link #88
james0246
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
As you probably know, the US was interested enough in Georgia to put several European countries, including my own, under a lot of diplomatic flak at the NATO summit in March for blocking Georgia's NATO entry. The unresolved conflicts in Abchasia and South Ossetia being one of the main reasons BTW. Now fast forward less than five months and suddenly Georgia "has nothing to do with America"! Probably because the Neocon faction is intensely staring at their fingernails while the Isolationists are having their five minutes in the sun. Come next year and the roles will probably be reversed again, maybe more than once. What does not change is pointing the finger at Europe of course.
Pardon me. While I did say that Europe should deal with the problem, I did not mean to imply that it was the other European nations fault, or that it was their duty to help in the aid of a cease-fire. Rather, I felt that the various countries deserved to try or pass first, if nothing else happens, then America could potentially step-in, but not until the other European nations had weighed in on the issue. I incorrectly grouped the various European countries together, and for that I apologize.

That being said, I do believe that part of this war's inception was based on the false assumption, by the Georgian president, that America would come in to bail Georgia out when they got into trouble. I expect that the only aid that America will provide will be the return of the Georgian troops, and possibly some releif after the fact. As with many of these possible larger scale war scenarios, America will posture and pose, making itself seem big, but then let the countries stumble upon peace/cease-fire at their own discretion (this is how America has dealt with many of Israel's conflicts).
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Old 2008-08-11, 14:45   Link #89
Amray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchunter226 View Post
Not counting nukes, the U.S. is much more powerful than Russia though (F-22 Raptor Air superiority anyone?). But, like I said, that doesn't matter. Besides, neither wants to fight each other.
Only in specified areas. Put together, the American Army, British Army, Australian Army and the Canadian Army are the biggest superpower. Which let us face is no suprise. If the Soviet Union starts anything with one of these countries then they will all most likely join in and be, on the most part, unstoppable. (They do not carry the power and greatness of the British Empire, but oh well.)

Yes, America is a big country so you have a lot of power now, but Mother Russia is no country to underestimate. Does not matter how many ways you look at it they can be capable of many things, especially in wars. Alas, the only way anyone would be able to find that out is if both countries were to have a full-scale war without interuption. That will never happen.
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Old 2008-08-11, 16:31   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amray View Post
Only in specified areas. Put together, the American Army, British Army, Australian Army and the Canadian Army are the biggest superpower. Which let us face is no suprise. If the Soviet Union starts anything with one of these countries then they will all most likely join in and be, on the most part, unstoppable. (They do not carry the power and greatness of the British Empire, but oh well.)
Wait, did the course of history stop at 1991 in English history books?
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Old 2008-08-11, 16:55   Link #91
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"they can be capable"(c)

Ah, I've always been interested in the international view of russia. The feedback above seems curious indeed.
Personally I'm against any war. I'd rather continue my japanese studies.
Besides, any talk about russia fighting the us and the rest of the world would imply pushing the red buttons which surely won't bring any good to anyone.
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Old 2008-08-11, 17:29   Link #92
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One thing I'd like to clear up: I strongly believe that what was one of Russia's more primary motives for overwhelming the Republic of Georgia, when the window of opportunity opened up, was more simply to punish the Georgians for seeking NATO membership while at the same time sending a message to other former Soviet Union satellites that are now independent to not make the same mistake(s) as Georgia did. On the issue of resources I'm pretty sure that Russia has more than enough (not even including its ties to other major producers of natural resources), so it would not be valid to virtually exploit the smaller Georgian army and its people.

From a completely strategic perspective, the Russians played brilliantly by providing the South Ossetians Russian citizenship/passports in advance. Politically, with Georgia's initial attack on South Ossetia, Russian intervention was almost guaranteed and to an extent, "justified" for having "truly" made a number of the region's people "Russians" through their means. It was just a matter of what kind of intervention they would deal and in what form/shape.

Either the Georgian higher-ups completely undermined the Russian reaction or the Russians did an extremely good gob of being deceitful with their intentions to get the Georgians to launch their initial attack that invoked such an overwhelming response.

If the Russians don't stop at Gori, it could very well be the end of the Republic of Georgia as we know it. The real losers to come out of this, however, will be the people displaced/with their lives torn apart. I guess it's inevitable when it comes to these kinds of things, but the mere fact that it came to this to begin with is quite unfortunate. Hopefully they may get past it and develop even further once this conflict ends.

I'm not sure why these U.S.-NATO - Russian tensions still exist today. I don't think either side would have anything to gain from completely obliterating the other. I really hope it's not as simple as a matter of pride/dwelling on the past because I would forever despise such people who would be like that and still call themselves politicians.

In any case, on a side, military note, the Russians haven't been actively using any of their Flankers in this conflict. At most we've been hearing about the shooting down of Su-25s (Frogfoots; relatively old) and other TU- bomber models. But yeah, whatever Russia does after the fall of Gori will pretty much determine the future of the Georgian people.
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Old 2008-08-11, 17:43   Link #93
karasuma
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Hate to say this.

This is payback time to Bush.

Preemptive war in Iraq now allows anyone to do anything in the name of national interest.

I don't see why Russia need to listen to anyone. US cannot afford to do anything at this moment. Flat out, no money.

Bottomline, once again, loser will be UN. Does UN matter anymore?
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Old 2008-08-11, 18:37   Link #94
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UN has no chance especially when one the nations fighting has veto power.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:04   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karasuma View Post
Bottomline, once again, loser will be UN. Does UN matter anymore?
i had a poll on the UN a while back


http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...t=67020&page=1

most people think the UN can be fixed.

With the Russian-Georgia War curosites if anyone wants to change thier vote.
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Old 2008-08-11, 19:46   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
One thing I'd like to clear up: I strongly believe that what was one of Russia's more primary motives for overwhelming the Republic of Georgia, when the window of opportunity opened up, was more simply to punish the Georgians for seeking NATO membership while at the same time sending a message to other former Soviet Union satellites that are now independent to not make the same mistake(s) as Georgia did.
While these reasons probably play their part, there's also the larger context of Russia's geopolitical position of the last decade and a half. Over this period, the West, NATO in particular, seemed to make all sorts of moves that either or subverted Russian interests. In particular, NATO's continued growth to nations that border Russia (Georgia being the prime example, but there are others as well) while simultaneously excluding Russia as a potential member is viewed as a major threat. Now, Russia finds itself in a situation where the West is literally powerless to affect the outcome, and it's possible that it's taking full advantage of this.

There's also probably a degree of genuine desire to punish Georgia for its blatant attack as well. As a side note, if the casualty estimates are correct, far more people died from Georgian attacks than under Russian ones. For all of Russia's deserved reputation for military brutality, they've inflicted few civilian casualties so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
On the issue of resources I'm pretty sure that Russia has more than enough (not even including its ties to other major producers of natural resources), so it would not be valid to virtually exploit the smaller Georgian army and its people.
It's probably not an issue of Russia needing more resources - it's already the world's largest natural gas exporter, and second largest in oil exports. What cutting the Georgian pipeline accomplishes is forcing all of the oil transported from the Caspian to be routed through Russia. This would greatly increase Russia's control of oil to Europe (they already account for about 70% and 30% of natural gas and oil imports respectively).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
From a completely strategic perspective, the Russians played brilliantly by providing the South Ossetians Russian citizenship/passports in advance. Politically, with Georgia's initial attack on South Ossetia, Russian intervention was almost guaranteed and to an extent, "justified" for having "truly" made a number of the region's people "Russians" through their means. It was just a matter of what kind of intervention they would deal and in what form/shape.
That was probably not really intended for such justification. When a country breaks up, it's almost inevitable that some of the citizens prefer staying in the original country, and that's largely the case for South Ossetia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
Either the Georgian higher-ups completely undermined the Russian reaction or the Russians did an extremely good gob of being deceitful with their intentions to get the Georgians to launch their initial attack that invoked such an overwhelming response.
The first is absolutely true; moreover, Georgian president Saakashvili probably expected the West (and the US in particular) to help him out, despite the sheer insanity of such an expectation. The status of the Russian troops that moved into South Ossetia argues against it being a some sort of great scheme on their part - they are largely equipped with much older equipment than they could have been given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
If the Russians don't stop at Gori, it could very well be the end of the Republic of Georgia as we know it. The real losers to come out of this, however, will be the people displaced/with their lives torn apart. I guess it's inevitable when it comes to these kinds of things, but the mere fact that it came to this to begin with is quite unfortunate. Hopefully they may get past it and develop even further once this conflict ends.
There's a lot of confusing reports coming from the region right now, particularly on the part of the Georgians. The latest is that the Russians claimed that they haven't entered Gori yet, and this is corroborated by the latest Georgian statement that their troops had vacated Gori of their own accord rather than being driven out. It looks like Russian attacks have hampered Georgian communications enough that the capital no longer has a good idea of what's happening at the front line.

For the most part, Russia seems commited to not attacking the capital or occupying any regions of Georgia outside of Abkazia and South Ossetia on any permanent basis, but time will tell if that's true or not. The first test will be whether Russia captures Gori or not.

This BBC analysis is a very good summary of some of the more prominent points surrounding this war: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7553390.stm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
I'm not sure why these U.S.-NATO - Russian tensions still exist today. I don't think either side would have anything to gain from completely obliterating the other. I really hope it's not as simple as a matter of pride/dwelling on the past because I would forever despise such people who would be like that and still call themselves politicians.
Western diplomacy has handled Russia very poorly over the last decade and a half. Now, Russia feels that it's managed to regain much of its former power despite Western intentions, and that's a recipe for trouble. I think that very little can be gained by trying to confront Russia over its policies (indeed, this isn't even an option for Europe). Instead, the West has to make some sort of attempt to act with Russia's interests in mind or else there'll be lots of further trouble of this nature in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Cross View Post
In any case, on a side, military note, the Russians haven't been actively using any of their Flankers in this conflict. At most we've been hearing about the shooting down of Su-25s (Frogfoots; relatively old) and other TU- bomber models. But yeah, whatever Russia does after the fall of Gori will pretty much determine the future of the Georgian people.
That's probably because Georgia had very little in the way of an air force to begin with, and all of the aircraft are probably gone by now. Older bombers are fully capable of performing in an environment with absolutely no enemy aircraft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karasuma View Post
I don't see why Russia need to listen to anyone. US cannot afford to do anything at this moment. Flat out, no money.
That isn't even really the issue. Against a Russia with a strong position, there was nothing that the US or any other country can do against them regardless of other commitments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karasuma View Post
Bottomline, once again, loser will be UN. Does UN matter anymore?
The UN was never meant to deal with troubles of this nature where one of the belligerents was a permanent member of the Security Council. Besides, it's not at all certain yet that most of the fault lies with Russia. Where the UN plays a role is that it allows for a forum for the relevant parties to discuss matters, and it may well be key to maintaining the peace after the war is over.
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Old 2008-08-11, 22:54   Link #97
gabbytay
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Its funny how the U.S warn Russia stop the attacks, what are they going to do about it start a war with Russia?. Bush is a hypocrite warning Russia I mean he and some N.A.T.O attacked Iraq because they have non-existent bio weapons. Russia has more that enough reason to attack Georgia than U.S attacking Iraq.

The Georgian president is an *$$ thinking that the U.S will support them by sending some troops. Ohh the U.S did help by giving their soldier a ride back home from iraq .

I don't think the Russians need sophisticated weapon to defeat a small country. All they have to do is Overwhelm them.
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Old 2008-08-11, 23:45   Link #98
Zoned87
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Originally Posted by gabbytay View Post
Its funny how the U.S warn Russia stop the attacks, what are they going to do about it start a war with Russia?. Bush is a hypocrite warning Russia I mean he and some N.A.T.O attacked Iraq because they have non-existent bio weapons. Russia has more that enough reason to attack Georgia than U.S attacking Iraq.

The Georgian president is an *$$ thinking that the U.S will support them by sending some troops. Ohh the U.S did help by giving their soldier a ride back home from iraq .

I don't think the Russians need sophisticated weapon to defeat a small country. All they have to do is Overwhelm them.
I'm all for supporting Georgia I don't care if we have to face Russia.

No one in the U.S. is afraid of Russia, or at least im not.
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Old 2008-08-11, 23:53   Link #99
ApostleOfGod
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Both U.S. and Russia have the power to destroy the face of Planet Earth.




.......




More than 5 times over.


So yeah, not much to be scared of. It all happens in an instant. Big explosion, and before you know it, we're all inside a continental mushroom cloud halfway to heaven.




Man I remember when my teacher told it like that.
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Old 2008-08-12, 00:03   Link #100
mg1942
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Originally Posted by Zoned87 View Post
No one in the U.S. is afraid of Russia, or at least im not.
lol

You're not afraid because you were born when USSR (1917-1991) was weakening.

Talk to your parents and many American citizens born in Baby-Boom-era (late 1940s to early 60s) and they have very good reasons why you shouldn't fvck with Russia.

Last edited by mg1942; 2008-08-12 at 00:35.
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