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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 294 62.96%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 93 19.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 40 8.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 21 4.50%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 1.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.21%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.21%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.21%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.21%
1 out of 10 : Painful 8 1.71%
Voters: 467. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-08-20, 18:01   Link #1581
Var
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Iyiyi…If the surprise reaction was going to instill some type of notification to the audience then it would have been Schnizel-centric…The surprise was on the face of Cornelia and the Prince’s assistant in-addition to Schnizel…In any literary work where you want to give some type of foreshadowing as it were you wouldn’t put the focus on 3 characters, just on the one…Which this scene clearly doesn’t do...In-addition even if you were right that this surprised reaction meant kill Zero in cold blood, it still didn’t achieve that in a literary sense…Moreover Schnizel calms down Cornelia either after or before the surprise scene in question (Can’t remember which came first, I think it was before though) because she is in dispute with Ougi’s gall at thinking he has the right to ask for anything…Again, this is no evidence of anything involving the BK’s killing Zero in cold blood after he exits the elevator…We just skip to that being the intended framework for Rolo’s rescue…
Schneizel's calming reaction comes after the three of them are surprised. So I'm not sure what your talking about, because his calm demonour so suddenly after being caught off guard is the same as your revered smirk you keep mentioning. A person who picks himself up that quickly has something more to add, if he did not he'd have been like Cornelia, protesting the idea not stopping it. I do not know what literature you've read, but when people act collect so quickly after being surprised means (usually) that they have further things up their sleaves than what was already put on the table.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
No I’m arguing or making speculation based on what is shown, while you are speculating a bevy of scenarios based on what could have happened offscreen…There is a huge difference here…Additionally wouldn’t you think killing the main character is something a bit too important to leave up to the audiences guess with not even a subtle indication? We all knew Lulu wasn’t going to die here…That’s why the scene was set-up just for the Rolaid rescue…Why can’t you see this? There is a clear detachment between the set-up and the reasoning behind it, and that’s because it would have interfered with subsequent plot-twist…I didn’t even think as I saw this unfold, it was so evident…
Did you think the way they killed Nunally was unfitting for a character of her importance? It was sudden and unexpected but I found it fitting. I think this is more a conflict of preference than actual presentation. As I said before, there is little on the table for you to explicitly state that he wanted Lelouch alive. You are speculating that he did based on past actions but those actions failed everytime because Lelouch would escape. Do you not think it reasonable for a man like Schneizel who wants to win to learn and correct this problem? Especially when Lelouch is of little use to him?

Sure we all knew he wasn't going to die there, and I agree that it was to set up Rolo, but I do not agree that it was somehow out of character or incorrectly done. I was completely unsurprised by the course of action the Order took. As I said, this is a conflict of preference not presentation. Just because I like the scene makes it correctly done for my taste, since you do not like it it is not to your taste. This is a question of jaded views and preference nothing more.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
The only fallacy here is you seriously trying to prove A+B = D without the use of C…
Seeing as how letters can equal whatever the fuck I want them too, I think that equation works just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
This scene was of people pi$$ed off an upset, betrayed, not a scene of a bunch of paranoid scardy-cats (Are we watching the same show—That’s another reason to my point about it being OOC and a dramatic effect scene)…You totally misread that scene which is why you are willing to skip over the missing link…If they were incredibly paranoid and fearful they would have all come out with sunglasses on or some type of blinders, or anything that stopped the geass from being used (Assuming they even knew how the geass is used)…Kallen probably even getting shot wouldn’t be too absurd if they were crazy people who had lost all of there wits…Here stands Diethard with a video camera getting his Steven Speilberg on trading verbal barbs instead of acting your skewed definition of “irrational” (geasspower be damned I guess)…Do you see how off-base all of this sounds? You are stretching too lazily to make this point…If they were indeed paranoid and fearful as you suggested this would have been the last episode of the show because they would have blasted him with Kallen there or seconds after she moved (which they still didn’t do until Rolo actually shows up)..These people wanted to get feelings off of there chests and unilaterally murder Zero all at the same time which is why it was OOC based on the lack of content in the episode linking this course of action….

As for Schnizzle’s interest in killing Lulu…,Atleast on my side of the debate I have him saying atleast twice that he doesn’t have any desire to kill his brother, while you have nothing more than a skip-to-my-lou scenario where this just had to be the case since the scene ends up being the case (Again with no hints, or even subtle indications to this extend)…I mean I’m enjoying myself too, but it’s really kinda easy to argue this...
First I'll quote other people who summed it up pretty well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I think we should also consider that Schneizel has already tried the whole capture instead of kill thing before with Lelouch and that didn't work out so well. If he didn't move to stop the Black Knights from killing Lelouch its probably simply because they made things easier on him by making his eventual surprise escape less likely. Of course then you have that he escaped yet again anyway, but you know at least he was close to being rid of his nemesis for good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgman1 View Post
The Order was paranoid alright, but not stupid enough to be taken over by Lelouch after what he had done to their allies and friends. Both sides don't know that Lelouch's Geass only works once and fear has taken them over, so the only course of action is to kill him on sight. "Fear the unknown." They don't know the full extent of Geass since they don't know what it does. The miracles of Zero are along the lines of "expect the unexpected". The Britannian royal family fears Lelheouch, but they fear Charles even more since they are clueless as to what he does. I wonder why Schneizel wondered what his father was doing in Area 11 waiting and didn't issue any orders to investigate or report to Charles. See the search team out to look for Lelouch near the end, he's a dangerous criminal and a wanted fugitive so it's DOA.
I find it silly for you to tell me that I misread the scene as if you some how have a monopoly and justification on 'what is right'. I saw what I saw, as I said preference and jadedness. I believe they were incredibly paranoid, in fact I think that is what Schneizel was doing when talking to them, working off their paranoia and fear to make them betray Zero. You saw them react negatively when he said that even he could be Geassed and they all started wondering if they themselves had been Geassed. There was clear paranoia there. And unlike Schneizel, they have no idea how the Geass work beyond a loose mention by Schneizel, therein I find your conjecture of them not being paranoid just because they did not wear 'sunglasses' completely irrelevant.

As for Diethard, did you miss the fact that he was the one who tried to stand up for Zero? The man was the least taken by Schneizel's bullshit but when the majority rules he had little choice. Hence why he was holding a camera, not a gun. The man had his own initiative, he did not care about Geass, he just had his story.

You're stretching this to make it overly negative when there is enough presented for one to easily argue that what occured is easily feasible.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Can’t believe I’m doing this at work right now
I have so much $hit to do^^...
I'm also at work.
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Old 2008-08-20, 18:25   Link #1582
rpgman1
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Schneizel's calming reaction comes after the three of them are surprised. So I'm not sure what your talking about, because his calm demonour so suddenly after being caught off guard is the same as your revered smirk you keep mentioning. A person who picks himself up that quickly has something more to add, if he did not he'd have been like Cornelia, protesting the idea not stopping it. I do not know what literature you've read, but when people act collect so quickly after being surprised means (usually) that they have further things up their sleaves than what was already put on the table.



Did you think the way they killed Nunally was unfitting for a character of her importance? It was sudden and unexpected but I found it fitting. I think this is more a conflict of preference than actual presentation. As I said before, there is little on the table for you to explicitly state that he wanted Lelouch alive. You are speculating that he did based on past actions but those actions failed everytime because Lelouch would escape. Do you not think it reasonable for a man like Schneizel who wants to win to learn and correct this problem? Especially when Lelouch is of little use to him?

Sure we all knew he wasn't going to die there, and I agree that it was to set up Rolo, but I do not agree that it was somehow out of character or incorrectly done. I was completely unsurprised by the course of action the Order took. As I said, this is a conflict of preference not presentation. Just because I like the scene makes it correctly done for my taste, since you do not like it it is not to your taste. This is a question of jaded views and preference nothing more.



Seeing as how letters can equal whatever the fuck I want them too, I think that equation works just fine.



First I'll quote other people who summed it up pretty well:




I find it silly for you to tell me that I misread the scene as if you some how have a monopoly and justification on 'what is right'. I saw what I saw, as I said preference and jadedness. I believe they were incredibly paranoid, in fact I think that is what Schneizel was doing when talking to them, working off their paranoia and fear to make them betray Zero. You saw them react negatively when he said that even he could be Geassed and they all started wondering if they themselves had been Geassed. There was clear paranoia there. And unlike Schneizel, they have no idea how the Geass work beyond a loose mention by Schneizel, therein I find your conjecture of them not being paranoid just because they did not wear 'sunglasses' completely irrelevant.

As for Diethard, did you miss the fact that he was the one who tried to stand up for Zero? The man was the least taken by Schneizel's bullshit but when the majority rules he had little choice. Hence why he was holding a camera, not a gun. The man had his own initiative, he did not care about Geass, he just had his story.

You're stretching this to make it overly negative when there is enough presented for one to easily argue that what occured is easily feasible.



I'm also at work.
Wait under the Order wonders about Orange and his supposed "Geass", then we'll be seeing betrayal within the Order and Britannia since they collaborated together to get Lelouch DOA. Remember that Asahina brought up a good point about Jeremiah and Rolo being so close to Zero while they are left in the dark. Toudou took heart to Asahina's advice.

Diethard just decided to end the story with Lelouch's death since all of the evidence presented is pointing at Zero (He would be betrayed as well for getting info. from Jeremiah and Viletta without telling them, as you can see from the expressions of Toudou, Chiba, and Tamaki). Unfortunately, both sides fail to grasp the big picture and Lelouch's side of the story.

It's like the witch-hunt all over again because of Geass' unnatural powers and Zero's past actions of killing both friend and foe. I wouldn't be surprised if there are deserters and traitors from both organizations because of being close to Lelouch. We'll just wait and see what these last six episodes will bring.
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Old 2008-08-20, 18:31   Link #1583
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by rpgman1 View Post
Wait under the Order wonders about Orange and his supposed "Geass", then we'll be seeing betrayal within the Order and Britannia since they collaborated together to get Lelouch DOA. Remember that Asahina brought up a good point about Jeremiah and Rolo being so close to Zero while they are left in the dark. Toudou took heart to Asahina's advice.

Diethard just decided to end the story with Lelouch's death since all of the evidence presented is pointing at Zero (He would be betrayed as well for getting info. from Jeremiah and Viletta without telling them, as you can see from the expressions of Toudou, Chiba, and Tamaki). Unfortunately, both sides fail to grasp the big picture and Lelouch's side of the story. It's like the witch-hunt all over again because of Geass' unnatural powers and Zero's past actions of killing both friend and foe.
Of course it's a witch hunt. Lelouch got painted in the worst possible light in that meeting. They know nothing of his limitations or his reasoning, or even the exact details for most of the people supposedly Geassed for that matter. All they know is that he can control people more or less at will.

I doubt they'll be convinced of anything by Jeremiah. It'd be hard for him to prove it. They'll probably be just as paranoid as they were with Kallen. You have to be pretty far gone to shoot your best pilot and friend.
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Old 2008-08-20, 18:38   Link #1584
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Does anyone else think it's odd that Schniezel and Cornelia were surprised by Ougi's request to give back Japan? When considering how the black knights are mostly composed of japanese who wish to liberate japan, I would think that it's common sense that they would make such a request, especially when they'll have to lose Zero and are too scared of Freija to make any type of retaliation.
Britannia controlls FREIJA. The Non-Brits most likely fear it. It's not like the BKs (or the Non-Brit Nations) can realistically compete against its destructive power, and I highly doubt that they'll be able to create a comparible warhead in a timely manner. I'm with Cornelia, they really weren't in the position to be making demands. Ougi's request was silly. Schniezel has no reason to honor it, nor do the BKs have any way to make him do so. They had two choices. Stand by Zero and take Cornelia & Schniezel hostage, or hand Zero over and bow to thier new masters.

It's only a matter of time before Saint Schniezel starts peddling his Peace Treaties (I mean before he more or less ordered each nation to surrender or get blown to kingdom come), if he hasn't already. The next target, his Majesty, Charles di Britannia. Go Schniezel!!! Go Kanon!!! Go Cornelia (If you support Schniezel)!!!

Lelouch, well, it time for him to do what Suzaku has failed to do time and time again. DIE!!!
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Old 2008-08-20, 18:43   Link #1585
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Dyllani View Post
Lelouch, well, it time for him to do what Suzaku has failed to do time and time again. DIE!!!
Lelouch already failed to die when he wanted to. Now the Emperor is going to come with him, assuming someone doesn't talk him out of it (which will happen).
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Old 2008-08-20, 18:53   Link #1586
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Originally Posted by Dyllani View Post
Britannia controlls FREIJA. The Non-Brits most likely fear it. It's not like the BKs (or the Non-Brit Nations) can realistically compete against its destructive power, and I highly doubt that they'll be able to create a comparible warhead in a timely manner. I'm with Cornelia, they really weren't in the position to be making demands. Ougi's request was silly. Schniezel has no reason to honor it, nor do the BKs have any way to make him do so. They had two choices. Stand by Zero and take Cornelia & Schniezel hostage, or hand Zero over and bow to thier new masters.

It's only a matter of time before Saint Schniezel started peddling his Peace Treaties (I mean before he more or less ordered each nation to surrender or get blown to kingdom come), if he hasn't already. The next target, his Majesty, Charles di Britannia. Go Schniezel!!! Go Kanon!!! Go Cornelia (If you support Schniezel)!!!

Lelouch, well, it time for him to do what Suzaku has failed to do time and time again. DIE!!!
Schneizel is no match for the emperor, don't delude yourself thinking otherwise. Charles has know Schneizel plans to challenge him and he doesn't care. Basically he said "Let him challenge me if he's confident".

Charles has made it clear that Knightmares, and guns are useless. He's got Bismark, who will most likely not turn against him even if the other KoR do. Not to mention that Ragnarok is probably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flaia

The only one who can really stop Charles from destroying the world to recreate it is Lelouch, as you need to have been a geass user and attain a certain level to kill an immortal, and at this point Lelouch is probably not even close to being able to kill Charles.
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Old 2008-08-20, 19:47   Link #1587
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There are three people within the Black Knights who knew Lelouch was Zero before Episode 19 that are moe on Lelouch's side - C.C., Kallen, Jeremiah. Jeremiah is loyal only to those who were loyal to Marianne, so he would stick with Lelouch. Kallen, I think so, she didn't purse Lelouch in the chase with the rest of the Black Knights. Come to think of it, all of them rushing off like that could prove Kallen the perfect opportunity to escape with C.C. And if she wings it with the Guren, there's a significant proportion of the firepower Lelouch would need.

An important thing to remember is the very first episode. When Lelouch saw that crash of the truck, C.C. was sending him psychic flashes, notably 'I finally found him'. C.C. was always seeking out Lelouch. He was always going to be the one who would have the potential to stop Charles. C.C. knew Marianne and probably had ties of friendship and perhaps loyalty with her. And she took the bullet for Lelouch in that episode. Plus during that episode, behaviour happened which contradicted his behaviour in 1-3. He ditched Rvalz, shunned Shirley except for when she was useful, used the guerillas like mere pawns and referred to them as worse, he used Geass to learn Kallen's secrets rather than rely on trust. However, with C.C., when he first saw her like that, he didn't know she had the power to give him Geass. He didn't know C.C. knew his mother. At that point in time, using Lelouch's state of mind and the way he regards other people, there was no logical reason for him to save C.C. He did it out of compassion, because he was damned Britannia was going to kill an innocent person. As for other innocents in 2, he didn't take that opinion. Heck, he even scoffed at Suzaku rushing to saving that falling woman and her child. Yet he tried to protect C.C., regardless of knowing nothing about her. The bond between those two may prove telling yet.
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Old 2008-08-20, 19:58   Link #1588
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Schneizel is no match for the emperor, don't delude yourself thinking otherwise. Charles has know Schneizel plans to challenge him and he doesn't care. Basically he said "Let him challenge me if he's confident".

Charles has made it clear that Knightmares, and guns are useless. He's got Bismark, who will most likely not turn against him even if the other KoR do. Not to mention that Ragnarok is probably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flaia

The only one who can really stop Charles from destroying the world to recreate it is Lelouch, as you need to have been a geass user and attain a certain level to kill an immortal, and at this point Lelouch is probably not even close to being able to kill Charles.
Lelouch's smarts and advanced knowledge of Geass may give him an edge. You know what, I take it back. Edge or not, Lelouch has proven himself nothing more than a little boy playing a man's game. Beaten both by Daddy & Brother. Alive, only because Daddy wills it. Victory after victory, yet, never true threat to Charles. If he thinks he has a chance against daddy, more power to him. Best case senario, we kill two annoying birds with one stone. I'm sure C.C. (can't help but feel she'll have some part in a final battle) will be their to hand him the victory if Charles get to close to winning.

Who knows what Schniezel is capable of. I wouldn't completely write him off. He'll give Daddy all he can handle (or not). Geass out of the equation, both him and Lelouch on an equal footing fighting daddy, hmm... I'd hop, skip, and jump behind Commander Schniezel. Unfortunately, it's Lelouch's Rebellion. I'm not deluding myself into thinking Schniezel will be on the one to end big Daddy. I just hope that when all is said and done, the right guy is ruling the world. Not Lelouch or Charles...


...Also, let poor Suzaku finds a good woman. He needs someone to get his mind off of killing all those people. I hope Anya will be up for the job. Or any woman for that matter. If all else fails, Gino can give it a try....

Last edited by Dyllani; 2008-08-20 at 20:14.
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:07   Link #1589
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
An important thing to remember is the very first episode. When Lelouch saw that crash of the truck, C.C. was sending him psychic flashes, notably 'I finally found him'. C.C. was always seeking out Lelouch. He was always going to be the one who would have the potential to stop Charles. C.C. knew Marianne and probably had ties of friendship and perhaps loyalty with her. And she took the bullet for Lelouch in that episode.
I think you're looking too far into this. Lelouch was someone with the proper will to complete the contract. Given her isolation, it seems unlikely she knew who he was from the get-go.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Plus during that episode, behaviour happened which contradicted his behaviour in 1-3. He ditched Rvalz, shunned Shirley except for when she was useful, used the guerillas like mere pawns and referred to them as worse, he used Geass to learn Kallen's secrets rather than rely on trust.
I have to disagree with this entirely. He left Rivalz to help those people, who at the time looked like mere accident victims. He never shunned Shirley in so much as he needed information without the chit-chat. The guerrillas were pawns at that time, a mere way for him to test himself in an actual battle. Kallen was too. Lelouch could not afford to trust these people.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
However, with C.C., when he first saw her like that, he didn't know she had the power to give him Geass. He didn't know C.C. knew his mother. At that point in time, using Lelouch's state of mind and the way he regards other people, there was no logical reason for him to save C.C. He did it out of compassion, because he was damned Britannia was going to kill an innocent person.
His only motivation was hatred of Britannia. She was one of their secrets, and he did very little to actually protect her. He only escaped with her, and likely didn't think much of it.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
As for other innocents in 2, he didn't take that opinion. Heck, he even scoffed at Suzaku rushing to saving that falling woman and her child. Yet he tried to protect C.C., regardless of knowing nothing about her. The bond between those two may prove telling yet.
He was surprised a Britannian would go to the effort to save a civilian, much less a Number. There wasn't any scoffing to it. He decided to let him have the battle because of it. As for the bond, he let C.C. behind after she "died" and thought nothing of her.
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:18   Link #1590
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@Var - As you may or may not know I'm not a huge fan of superquoting because it's quite easy to just say the opposite of a quote, but this is so much $hit I might have to break that rule a bit...I'll ignore your points via proxy as I'm more interested in debating you..If wanted to debate him or her, I think we know I'd do it...

Ugh...


Quote:
Schneizel's calming reaction comes after the three of them are surprised. So I'm not sure what your talking about, because his calm demonour so suddenly after being caught off guard is the same as your revered smirk you keep mentioning. A person who picks himself up that quickly has something more to add, if he did not he'd have been like Cornelia, protesting the idea not stopping it. I do not know what literature you've read, but when people act collect so quickly after being surprised means (usually) that they have further things up their sleaves than what was already put on the table
Well for what it's worth I have a degree in Journalism, English, and Theater so I know a little bit about theatrical techniques I think (Eventhough my spelling sucks at times^^), but moving along your point was that Schniezel (Can't tell you how much I hate writing his name trying a way to spell it that doesn't annoy me and all), that his hand raising to calm down Cornelia is somehow equal to a clear or subtle, first-person-centric indicator to the audience that he had something up his sleeve (Regarding the OOC Kill Zero set-up) just doesn't pass the sniff-test...That scene was 3 people being shocked at Ougi's request...Even Dullindal smirks at that suggestion...Again until you provide something that connects the dots in a way that trumps the dramatic effect and set-up for Rolo's rescue your just gerbiling in that circle...

Your point is because it happened, that is the indicator for why it happened (Which in my view doesn't exist in this episode)...My point is the reasoning behind it happening skipped some letters in the alphabet to keep the indicator hidden just enuff for the plot-twist...CG DOES THIS CONSTANTLY...Do I really have to go thru the list of how many times this show gives sketchy or non-existent details to hide the twist from the audience(Not that it always does a great job)...

Quote:
Seeing as how letters can equal whatever the fuck I want them too, I think that equation works just fine.
Well it doesn't matter if you think A's for Apples and J's for Jacks you still haven't remedied the fact that you have no evidence for how it goes from "Hand over my brother" to "Kill him unilaterally in cold blood on sight"...Until you can scoop any evidence out of that bowl of yours that exists in this episode, your just eating alphabet soup...

Quote:
As I said before, there is little on the table for you to explicitly state that he wanted Lelouch alive. You are speculating that he did based on past actions but those actions failed everytime because Lelouch would escape. Do you not think it reasonable for a man like Schneizel who wants to win to learn and correct this problem? Especially when Lelouch is of little use to him?
And this is where I win...All great questions...Beautiful questions....Now I'll ask you for the last and final time, GIVE ME THE EVIDENCE IN THIS EPISODE THAT MAKES THE QUESTIONS YOU JUST ASK HAVE CREDIBILITY? Give me the timecode, give me the instant, give me anything that points to Schneizel thinking of any of these questions in-between his negotiations with the BK's and their subsequent unilateral firing squad...Anybody can have questions...I can throw questions outta my bedroom window and hit poodles all night...But it's much harder to throw answers...And while I'm not a big supporter of the whole Sherlock Holmes absence of evidence theory, I'm getting there...

Past actions by Schnizzle only serve as a template for viewing and//or comparing the current situation DEVOID of the actual content to truly know the answer...You're claiming to know the answer when there is no real answer...The literary answer is a clear scenario-creation with the expressed ideal of creating an overly dramatic moment that engages the Rolo plot twist...Because any smart idea that supports your questions has Schnizzle killing Lulu immediatley...Even after Kallen walks away you have more than enuff time to kill him if that was your expressed mean...

It was a set-up, which betrayed the character flow because it skipped a step...If it doesn't skip the step there is no surprise moment with the BK's surrounding Zero with guns blazing...That's why it was OOC because it gives us two pieces of bread (The negotiation is one slice, the BK killing squad is the other slice), but it skimped on the meat...Now show me the slice of meat that connects the sandwich? That's right your piece of meat is in the fridge, otherwise known as offscreen...My point has always been that the disconnect between these two events makies it OOC by default...It has no choice but to be...

This post is long enuff I'll address your points on paranoia at some point later if I feel like it...
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:35   Link #1591
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Schneizel is no match for the emperor, don't delude yourself thinking otherwise. Charles has know Schneizel plans to challenge him and he doesn't care. Basically he said "Let him challenge me if he's confident".
Because that's what the family is based on.

Survival of the fittest. He has nothing to fear, if Schenzeil defeats him then he has every right to succeed to the Throne. Why should he deny that?

He taught his kids to grow up this way.
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:47   Link #1592
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Well for what it's worth I have a degree in Journalism, English, and Theater so I know a little bit about theatrical techniques I think (Eventhough my spelling sucks at times^^), but moving along your point was that Schniezel (Can't tell you how much I hate writing his name trying a way to spell it that doesn't annoy me and all), that his hand raising to calm down Cornelia is somehow equal to a clear or subtle, first-person-centric indicator to the audience that he had something up his sleeve (Regarding the OOC Kill Zero set-up) just doesn't pass the sniff-test...That scene was 3 people being shocked at Ougi's request...Even Dullindal smirks at that suggestion...Again until you provide something that connects the dots in a way that trumps the dramatic effect and set-up for Rolo's rescue your just gerbiling in that circle...
And I have a degree in Physics, English, and soon-to-be Japanese. Not sure what college degrees have to with anything. Given I do not have a degree in Theater but I believe my experience with stories and how they are told allow me some insight on theatricality and the techniques of telling a story.

Now, let's get one point out of the way: I am not arguing against the dramatic set up. Hell if you bother reading the original post I made, I agreed with you. What I have a problem with is that you seem insistent on throwing around the words, or in this case acronym, OOC. That is what I disagree with.

I am not sure why you find it so hard to believe that a man who can, after being surprised be able to so quickly pick himself up and act is not the equivalent of someone smirking like a moron. A smirk does not have to imply that the man has a plan up his ass, he could simply be amused. Another form of showing, guess what, surprise. Someone who is able to recover from a situation quickly is usually assumed to be someone with ammunition in his gun. Further this into the fact that it is Schneizel, a man who plans for everything, and I do not see how his ability to regain composure so quickly does not raise even the slightest flag that maybe, just maybe, he has other plans whirling in his head.

So again, as I said before, you are pushing your perspective onto something as if it were law. There are many ways to show that a character is planning something aside from smirking, uncanny composure happens to be one of them.

Moving on, as this is clearly becoming pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Your point is because it happened, that is the indicator for why it happened (Which in my view doesn't exist in this episode)...My point is the reasoning behind it happening skipped some letters in the alphabet to keep the indicator hidden just enuff for the plot-twist...CG DOES THIS CONSTANTLY...Do I really have to go thru the list of how many times this show gives sketchy or non-existent details to hide the twist from the audience(Not that it always does a great job)...
No, that is simply furthering the point. My point is that the witch hunt Schneizel started with his fear-centric campaign is where the other letters came from. This was a Salem Witch Hunt at its finest. There was no physical evidence of anything, there was circumstancial evidence and an idiot Ougi with a Britannian in toe. Diethard had the right idea, as did Tamaki, in questioning the nonsense. Once Ougi started blabbering about shit he did not even understand or know about (I do not know why the Order did not question the fucking Britannian woman standing behind him) is where the fear began setting in and finally Schneizel threw in the 'I cannot guarantee that I myself am not geassed, truly fearful thing'. With Ougi countering Diethard's logic by making a fear-claim of 'Oh but what if he used it on us'. It became a Salem Witch Hunt with the only evidence being provided by Britannia. 'She's a witch.' There is your development and timecode. Go watch it. Its called scare tactics and its called a witch hunt.

With Schneizel never even stating he wanted Lelouch alive, and using the above method of turning the Order against Lelouch, I do not see how you did not expect them to try and kill him. What happened after was the continuation of the idea of a witch hunt.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Well it doesn't matter if you think A's for Apples and J's for Jacks you still haven't remedied the fact that you have no evidence for how it goes from "Hand over my brother" to "Kill him unilaterally in cold blood on sight"...Until you can scoop any evidence out of that bowl of yours that exists in this episode, your just eating alphabet soup...
Not quite, my evidence is, like yours, based on interpretation. Where you say A is for Apples and J is for Jacks, I say A is for Arbitrary and J is Johnson.

And for the love of the debate, stop focusing on a single line and look at the scene. The mood, circumstances, and above all the other words that were said. 'Hand over my brother' does not float well as being 'Give him to me alive' when you've been goading a group of people by their fears of being under the effects of an unknown magical power that could make them do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
And this is where I win...All great questions...Beautiful questions....Now I'll ask you for the last and final time, GIVE ME THE EVIDENCE IN THIS EPISODE THAT MAKES THE QUESTIONS YOU JUST ASK HAVE CREDIBILITY? Give me the timecode, give me the instant, give me anything that points to Schneizel thinking of any of these questions in-between his negotiations with the BK's and their subsequent unilateral firing squad...Anybody can have questions...I can throw questions outta my bedroom window and hit poodles all night...But it's much harder to throw answers...And while I'm not a big supporter of the whole Sherlock Holmes absence of evidence theory, I'm getting there...
Look up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Past actions by Schnizzle only serve as a template for viewing and//or comparing the current situation DEVOID of the actual content to truly know the answer...You're claiming to know the answer when there is no real answer...The literary answer is a clear scenario-creation with the expressed ideal of creating an overly dramatic moment that engages the Rolo plot twist...Because any smart idea that supports your questions has Schnizzle killing Lulu immediatley...Even after Kallen walks away you have more than enuff time to kill him if that was your expressed mean...
And again, I never disagreed with what was being set up. I disagreed with insitently calling it OOC. I'm claiming to know the answer just as much as you yourself are, otherwise there would be no debate here. A debate cannot start unless two people hold onto two different truths, that is the heart of a debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
It was a set-up, which betrayed the character flow because it skipped a step...If it doesn't skip the step there is no surprise moment with the BK's surrounding Zero with guns blazing...That's why it was OOC because it gives us two pieces of bread (The negotiation is one slice, the BK killing squad is the other slice), but it skimped on the meat...Now show me the slice of meat that connects the sandwich? That's right your piece of meat is in the fridge, otherwise known as offscreen...My point has always been that the disconnect between these two events makies it OOC by default...It has no choice but to be...

This post is long enuff I'll address your points on paranoia at some point later if I feel like it...
And again, I do not agree. It took its step full well by using scare tactics and starting an outright witch hunt. And as I said, I was not surprised at all by what happened and did, in fact, expect it from what I had seen during the negotiations. Why? Because one: I did not expect Schneizel to try again to capture someone who keeps escaping and now knows has a dangerous power, two: scare tacticts and witch hunts =/= peaceful turn overs, and three: everyone but Diethard is an idiot.

Happy yet? Or shall we continue comparing opinions to see who will simply last longer?
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:55   Link #1593
wingdarkness
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Wow so you're a real life Doogie Houser MD, huh? That's kinda cool...LMMFAO....

You might have to wiki that to get the joke...

I don't need to last longer, my posts are literary viagra...

After dinner perhaps I'll save you a little meat to complete your two-slices of bread analysis...

Til then don't get a 3rd degree on my a$$...

(Oh BTW I'm actually eating dinner...)
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Old 2008-08-20, 20:59   Link #1594
aznegglover
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I've always wondered why VV was "dying" after being hit in his Knightmare when he was immortal
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:00   Link #1595
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Wow so you're a real life Doogie Houser MD, huh? That's kinda cool...LMMFAO....

You might have to wiki that to get the joke...

I don't need to last longer, my posts are literary viagra...

After dinner perhaps I'll save you a little meat to complete your two-slices of bread analysis...

Til then don't get a 3rd degree on my a$$...

(Oh BTW I'm actually eating dinner...)
I never did like that show.

I'll be looking forward to your reply, though I will likely not to reply until tomorrow as I have to get some sleep before my next 6AM-6PM data collection shift.

I'll likely have my Masters in Physics before I finish Japanese at the rate these retarded classes are becoming available and due to my inability to leave the lab for Study Abroad.

I'm... half asleep next to an AC unit keeping me awake.
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:01   Link #1596
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by aznegglover View Post
I've always wondered why VV was "dying" after being hit in his Knightmare when he was immortal
He was critically injured. He would have healed if Charles hadn't taken his Code. Once that was gone, he was mortal and died of his wounds.
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:11   Link #1597
aznegglover
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He was critically injured. He would have healed if Charles hadn't taken his Code. Once that was gone, he was mortal and died of his wounds.
So basically, Charles let his brother die o.o?
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:13   Link #1598
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by aznegglover View Post
So basically, Charles let his brother die o.o?
In short, yes. He lied, so he died. Charles is cold like that.
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:17   Link #1599
rpgman1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
In short, yes. He lied, so he died. Charles is cold like that.
Survival of the fittest and tough love huh? Charles seem focused on going forward to the future instead of dwelling on the past. All he has to do is to initiate Ragnarok so a new world will be born at the cost of the old world.
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Old 2008-08-20, 21:19   Link #1600
CJL13
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In short, yes. He lied, so he died. Charles is cold like that.
Imagine if he was Jiminy Cricket in Pinochio.
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