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Old 2008-08-24, 07:24   Link #241
ClockWorkAngel
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The problem with Schrödinger’s cat is that though both possibilities are possible theoretically, only the second (death) is possible logically.

The cat will die eventually.

The cat will die one way or another.

So one may assume;

You can only save the cat by opening the box.

The key is not finding whether or not the cat is dead or alive, but guarantee one possibility or another.

Theory is unlimited, while logic is limited in the scope of possibility.

There’s also a version that if you open the box the cat will die cause of the poison activates the moment you opened it. But this isn’t mention and would probably screw with what Ryukishi is implying.
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Old 2008-08-24, 07:35   Link #242
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
.

There’s also a version that if you open the box the cat will die cause of the poison activates the moment you opened it. But this isn’t mention and would probably screw with what Ryukishi is implying.
Dan Simmons used that version on his books Endymion and The rise of Endymion
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Old 2008-08-24, 09:39   Link #243
Asashio123
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Originally Posted by Apathy View Post
Eh, I was under the impression that what you said was more or less the case, although I'm not sure about the 'true' or 'false' aspect of it. Also, with VNs, I guess there's more than one option influencing the story (more than Higurashi, I think? I've never played a VN, but I was under the impression you get to change the situation more/provide more input to the situation than Higurashi?).

Spoiler for kind of long speculation on Schrodinger's cat:


... But I could just be getting confused. ._.; Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... In any case, what you said sounds right to me.

I'm glad I'll never have to study quantum physics: if I can't even get my head around Schrodinger's cat, I wonder what I'd make of the rest of it (not to mention all the formulae)...

Ah, and of course: Schrodinger's cat was mentioned in the poem by Bernkastel for Minagoroshi-hen:
Higurashi is almost like us watching Rika play a live VN. We don't actually get direct input on the situation, but Rika does.

Otherwise, I was thinking more along the lines that Schrodinger's cat applies only to, say, the time before the Higurashi reboot (so that Rika has not made any moves on the playing field yet), but after Rika makes her first move, Schrodinger's cat does not apply any more, as her actions would have influenced (yes, that word) the outcome in some way, thus making one "END" (as I call it, eheheh) more likely than the others.

Similarly, during the time the box containing the cat is closed, Schrodinger's cat would apply, but if you took the box and threw it into a deadly wildfire, Schrodinger's cat would not apply, as it is far more likely that the cat is dead, than that it is alive.

So, I guess we're thinking the the same thing, although it seems that I'm thinking more about influencing a path before you try to confirm the outcome, while you're thinking about influencing a path by trying to confirm the outcome. Right?

...So... now to apply this to Umineko. Gaaaah~

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
The problem with Schrödinger’s cat is that though both possibilities are possible theoretically, only the second (death) is possible logically.

The cat will die eventually.

The cat will die one way or another.

So one may assume;

You can only save the cat by opening the box.

...
This is confusing. It seems I can't understand anything unless it's put into a VN-perspective.
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Old 2008-08-24, 10:43   Link #244
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Beato's power is to kill someone infinitely, the power of the schrodinger's cat, the ability to trap you into a paradox of possibility, but in reality there's only one reality, death.

To break that paradox, direct interference must be made, something has to be done before a set period of time, the ninth twlight.

Battler hasn't done much in the Witch's realm, though he is trying to figure out a way to defeat the witch, he first must try to find out the rules of this game and attempt to break them.
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Old 2008-08-24, 10:51   Link #245
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
Beato's power is to kill someone infinitely, the power of the schrodinger's cat, the ability to trap you into a paradox of possibility, but in reality there's only one reality, death.
That's the power of the "Endless witch" which Beato currently has... though she can give it away.
The power she, herself, has is to make things remember their forms (ie fixing a broken vase or a "broken" Battler).
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Old 2008-08-24, 11:42   Link #246
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You misinterpretating a lot of things, CWA.
Beato's power is NOT related at all to the schrodinger's cat theory.

That theory is used to demonstrate that before the conclusion is given, both science and magic sides are right at the same time. It has absolutely nothing to do with Beatrice being able to chain murder people she chooses.
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Old 2008-08-24, 12:03   Link #247
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It's my fault for trying to connect things that don't match up things.

If that's true, then technically it would be impossible to find out. It sort of conflicts with her ability too, since its going to be a loop of death and doom, no conclusion will be presented, therefore you HAVE to break the cycle somehow.

It's like higurashi all over again, to win some sorta miracle is going to happen again. I have a feeling Enyu may make a human appearance eventually.
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Old 2008-08-24, 22:19   Link #248
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Quote:
So, I guess we're thinking the the same thing, although it seems that I'm thinking more about influencing a path before you try to confirm the outcome, while you're thinking about influencing a path by trying to confirm the outcome. Right?

...So... now to apply this to Umineko. Gaaaah~
I think that's more or less it. I... erm, think... ._.; (This theory is pretty confusing, isn't it).

As for Umineko, I guess the basic premise of the argument would be:

Spoiler for too much talking. Again.:


... I seem to understand things better in a VN context, too. ._. Or at least one where you can see the situation tree (even though the one in Kizuna still really confuses me)...

... In the end, I really feel sorry for that cat. ._.;
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:58   Link #249
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I remembered a quote from a philosopher:
"Whenever there's a paradox, there's another one within it"

It means there's an inner-paradox to every paradox that's outside
so I guess, by figuring out what the inner-paradox is and apply it, Beato will be defeated
Suppose this:

Battler: "Recital Requested! Beato, state the following using your red words!:
I'm a liar "
Beato: "...uh"

That will be just plain cheap, similar to the cat theory
you put it inside the box, but now the cat is powerful enough to come out and it forced YOU to go in instead...
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Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep1: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep2: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep3: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep4: Finished

Umineko no Naku Koro ni EP5: ...??

Accumulating 07th point -.-
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Old 2008-08-25, 09:48   Link #250
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Originally Posted by Apathy View Post
I think that's more or less it. I... erm, think... ._.; (This theory is pretty confusing, isn't it).

As for Umineko, I guess the basic premise of the argument would be:

...
Hmm... I think you summed it up pretty well here. I'm going to stop theorizing on Schrodinger's cat. (Now, I'm reading up on Quantum Suicide, which seems to apply a bit more to Higurashi/Umineko [?])

It's kind of obvious that the crime was committed by man, not a witch. If it was committed by a witch, it'd be pretty boring. Of course, after seeing Beato and The Witches (Bern, 34, Walgiria, etc.) so many times, it'd also be almost unbelievable if they ended up being hallucinations or whatever. I'm sure they exist in some form or another, maybe in a state similar to Hanyuu's.

So, maybe Beato works similiar to the way the Sonozakis do. She didn't actually commit the murder, but just because, she lies to Battler and takes the credit for it.
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Old 2008-08-25, 10:39   Link #251
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Originally Posted by Asashio123 View Post
It's kind of obvious that the crime was committed by man, not a witch. If it was committed by a witch, it'd be pretty boring. Of course, after seeing Beato and The Witches (Bern, 34, Walgiria, etc.) so many times, it'd also be almost unbelievable if they ended up being hallucinations or whatever. I'm sure they exist in some form or another, maybe in a state similar to Hanyuu's.
Well the problem is, how do you prove that it's committed by men. until you do that, there's still the claim from Beatrice that it's all done by a witch. According to Ryukishi07's production diary, that is what Umineko has changed to since Ep3: like a court case where the two sides tries to establish their claims. As for hallucinations...remember the premise of Higurashi? The catch phase in the beginning was "Is it men? Or a curse?", and the answer was "neither. It was a disease." So I wouldn't rule out anything just yet...knowing Ryukishi07's writing style in Higurashi...
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Old 2008-08-25, 12:37   Link #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Well the problem is, how do you prove that it's committed by men. until you do that, there's still the claim from Beatrice that it's all done by a witch. According to Ryukishi07's production diary, that is what Umineko has changed to since Ep3: like a court case where the two sides tries to establish their claims. As for hallucinations...remember the premise of Higurashi? The catch phase in the beginning was "Is it men? Or a curse?", and the answer was "neither. It was a disease." So I wouldn't rule out anything just yet...knowing Ryukishi07's writing style in Higurashi...
That's the very problem, you can't prove it. As in schrodinger's cat, you can't possible find the truth without interfering.

However we may be taking it for too much of its face value. There is no evidence to support that the situation (anti-mystery v anti-fantasy) is limited to the boundaries of schrodinger's cat infact it may only be one way to view it. There can be many ways to interpret the situation.

First off we must find the rules.

What has stayed consistent in the games?
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Old 2008-08-25, 13:05   Link #253
Asashio123
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Well the problem is, how do you prove that it's committed by men. until you do that, there's still the claim from Beatrice that it's all done by a witch. According to Ryukishi07's production diary, that is what Umineko has changed to since Ep3: like a court case where the two sides tries to establish their claims. As for hallucinations...remember the premise of Higurashi? The catch phase in the beginning was "Is it men? Or a curse?", and the answer was "neither. It was a disease." So I wouldn't rule out anything just yet...knowing Ryukishi07's writing style in Higurashi...
Huh... I suppose that's true. Shall I rephrase? It's kind of obvious that the crime was not committed through magical means. There is a logical solution somewhere. But either way, you're right; there's no definite proof that the crime isn't magical. Although Umineko would be pretty boring if the answer was "Beatrice cast a spell, and everyone died magically. The end.".

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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
What has stayed consistent in the games?
I suppose we can finally give this a try. Anything that happens only once doesn't really matter, anything that happens only twice doesn't really matter either. But something that happens three times. Huh... How about;

-one of the adults get their hands on a pretty awesome shotgun
-one of the adults get their hands on some amount of gold
-one or more new witches appear
-the adults are all (excluding Krauss, I guess) in need of gold
-Kinzo is crazy and delusional
-Kumasawa makes mackerel jokes

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Old 2008-08-25, 13:09   Link #254
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There isn't much rules in Umineko considering how the episodes are very different from each other.
But they do complete the question from each other, especially episode 3 for episode 1.


That said, there aren't sure points to gamble on, considering that episode 3 leave more open doors.
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Old 2008-08-25, 13:22   Link #255
Sterling01
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There isn't much rules in Umineko considering how the episodes are very different from each other.
So far the only things that have stayed are
  1. 6 people die after midnight of the 1st day
  2. Battler has always been the last to die
  3. The way the 6 people died has changed each time
  4. Whatever said in red text is true
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Old 2008-08-25, 13:30   Link #256
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How did the first 6 people die in this episode?
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Old 2008-08-25, 15:08   Link #257
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Old 2008-08-25, 15:08   Link #258
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How did the first 6 people die in this episode?

Spoiler for ep3:
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Old 2008-08-25, 17:48   Link #259
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Got the game on Friday and finished it this past weekend.

This EP was much more enjoyable than the last 2- it felt shorter but the 中2 type battles... ughh... too much.

I haven't read any post in this thread yet, but I'll probably post a really large theory post again in the next few days especially since I think have a plausible answer to the first part of the riddle. The first six sacrifices are probably: a, i, k, m, r, u
I'll explain my theory in a later post.

BTW did anyone notice that ロノウェ is also how you read Genji's last name 呂ノ上?
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Old 2008-08-25, 17:50   Link #260
Sterling01
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BTW did anyone notice that ロノウェ is also how you read Genji's last name 呂ノ上?
Yes that's because Kinzo used Ronove's help to create Genji
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