AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-08-24, 16:02   Link #1261
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
The interesting is, you can come up with a discussion revolving Wesley's comment regarding the Major. In the anime, Motoko is asked why not just get a larger, male body for combat purposes, since that's what she mainly does anyway.
It's even more interesting when you see what Motoko and Balsa have in common — they are both women in a man's world. For this reason alone, there will be many inevitable comparisons between arguably the two most recognisable characters in Production I.G's pantheon.

One of the most prominent themes in Seirei no Moribito involved Balsa re-discovering her maternal instincts, while simultaneously maintaining the role of a stern father to a fledgling Chagum.

In Motoko's case, it depends on which series or movie you draw evidence from. But taking the canon as a whole, the Major constantly confronts questions about her identity as an individual, which naturally includes what it means to be a woman. There were several occasions in both Gigs when she was surprised to discover that she could still feel emotions like love and compassion. In the original Ghost in the Shell movie, she hypothesised that memetic identity is not just retained in the brain, but also in the body. Meaning to say, you can't have an identity without a body — a mind alone is not sufficient. Incidentally, that was why the original Puppeteer wanted to inhabit the Major's bionic body: It had evolved to the point where it wanted to leave a genetic legacy.

And as far as most complex life-forms are concerned, you can't start a family without a "woman".

Therefore, it's correct to call the Major a "man with a pussy". But it's wrong to stop there. There is a lot more to Motoko than at first meets the eye. That's what makes her such a malleable and interesting character.

Just like Balsa, actually. Shame I won't get to hear the American dubs, at least until I find "friendly" streams in the Internets.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 17:13   Link #1262
LifeILL
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Just finished this series yesterday. Words can't really describe how I feel about this series.

It's absolutely phenomenal the way the story is told, the direction, and the characters.

Balsa is one of the most realistic anime characters I have seen, I just love how mature she is and how she carries herself, completely different from any other protagonist I know. I think it's just brilliant.

The only flaw the show has was the climax, I thought that they were dead for real when those endless monsters were approaching. But I didn't like how they were saved so easily. Seemed like a cop-out to me.

The ending was also a little open-ended, I hope it makes way for season 2. I never really thought that Tanda and Balsa would end up together since they rely on each other but don't really have feelings that crosses those lines......

hopefully season 2 will bring some closure.
LifeILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 17:25   Link #1263
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 32
I doubt we'll get to see the whole saga, or closure for that in particular. There are ten novels if I remember correctly, and this series only covers the first one. From what I can tell, everything is wrapped up in the tenth novel. In other words, there's still a loonng way to go.

Hell, I would consider it a miracle if Production I.G. announces a second season to this.
kujoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 17:26   Link #1264
LifeILL
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by kauldron26 View Post

we didnt even understand why tanda was the only one that could reject her for her murders, why did she listen to him, if killing had no weight? what made her listen? why did she leave him? how could chagum suddenly go back to a life that threatened his own and acclimate so well. my point is that in all reality, the show is not complex at all. no adult themes. no shades of gray. everyone found their niche in the end. no one was really faced with any heavy confrontation. the heaviest moral confrontation was the slap btw chagum and balsa, and that was comical. im not saying the show was bad, im just saying that i was expected to be blown away. look at the episode when balsa goes all tiger on the dude? what then, she's fine because she didnt kill him? all was well with the world? every thing just fit too well...

or how bout all those mysterious scenes and conversations at court?? why did the head sage try and kill shuga? yet he didnt even know the truth, the head sage was just acting mysterious as a plot device. yet his attempts on shuga's life and multiple attempted murders of the prince carried no weight. dude just came and went. what was up with the prince why was he so sickly? are u telling me that the first wife held no malice for the death and silence of her son, and the second prince was bound to ascend the throne? c'mon... balsa reminds me of motoko from ghost in the shell, she just does what she's supposed to do or believes what she's doing is right, there is no range in her emotional contenance. atleast motoko was redeemed in 2nd gig where we saw a completely different side of her. Balsa was boring as fucking hell. no passion for anything whatsoever. now compare her character arc to someone like yoko, or caska, or saya... theres not even any point. Balsa can be summarized as hot and formidable. nothing more.

Seirei no Moribito is a very simple show with a simple, but engaging story. It's lack of adult themes does not reduce the show's quality, and I think Balsa is one of the most realistic characters I've ever seen. You said that she did not redeem in any way, well why would she need to redeem herself if she believes that what she's doing is right? Isn't that how human beings are?

And her ignoring Tanda, it's not like they talk a lot, hell, they're not even really friends. They just happened to cross each other's path and had to help each other. Tanda didn't really develop feelings for her until late, but even he realizes that Balsa has her own things to do.
LifeILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 17:28   Link #1265
LifeILL
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Has anyone read those novels??

I really want to know what happens later....does Balsa meet Chalgum again? Or does she just continue being a traveler. Many possibilites.
LifeILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 17:33   Link #1266
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeILL View Post
And her ignoring Tanda, it's not like they talk a lot, hell, they're not even really friends. They just happened to cross each other's path and had to help each other. Tanda didn't really develop feelings for her until late, but even he realizes that Balsa has her own things to do.
They know each other from the way back when they were growing up. Recently, she has been traveling, doing her bodyguard duties. Because of this, it's been three years (or is it two?), since they've last seen each other.

The reason why she left is actually explained in the series, specifically on the episode where Tanda takes the trip to the "other side" in order to save Saya. Tanda questioned her about her intentions, that her quest to honor the lives that were lost for her sake, was in itself a hypocrisy if she ends up taking the lives of others in return. The fact she intends to be a bodyguard for hire doesn't change that. This is why they had a brief (well, three years if I'm not mistaken...) falling out from each other, and why Balsa has now sworn an oath of never taking a life ever again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeILL
I really want to know what happens later....does Balsa meet Chalgum again? Or does she just continue being a traveler. Many possibilites.
I haven't personally read them, but yes... Chagum still plays an important role, but I think it will be quite some time before Balsa meets the old gang again. Just as the final episode shows, she's off to her homeland, which is what the second novel is all about I think.
kujoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 18:00   Link #1267
LifeILL
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
They know each other from the way back when they were growing up. Recently, she has been traveling, doing her bodyguard duties. Because of this, it's been three years (or is it two?), since they've last seen each other.


Yeah, but who knows how close they really were....from the looks of it....they were never really that close to begin with. Maybe it's due to the falling out...
LifeILL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 18:07   Link #1268
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I'm fairly sure Balsa had never killed anyone, and the lives she was making up for were the lives taken in order to keep her alive as a child. Tanda and Balsa are close and definiently romantically involved, it's just she had her obligations that he didn't agree with. Those being her risking her life in order to make up for the lives taken on her behalf. He's just really sick of her coming back to him in order to get patched up basically.

It's a matter of when, not if they get together.
Wesley84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 18:08   Link #1269
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeILL View Post
Yeah, but who knows how close they really were....from the looks of it....they were never really that close to begin with. Maybe it's due to the falling out...
Actually, they're very close. It's not explicitly said, but this is demonstrated during that time when Tanda tends to the wounds of a naked Balsa (which implies familiarity), or how much he constantly waits for her to return.

At the end of the tenth novel, they pretty much settle down with each other. Balsa is still Balsa though. I can imagine her getting a case of wanderlust for a while, as Tanda plays the wife waiting for her man to return.
kujoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 18:18   Link #1270
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I'm fairly sure Balsa had never killed anyone, and the lives she was making up for were the lives taken in order to keep her alive as a child.
She did as a bodyguard. Tanda's words went something like: "There's no point in saving people if you were killing others." He even further asked her if she was killing more than she was saving... and that line of questioning was what made her leave for a long time. But ever since then, as Balsa herself says, it was precisely that confrontation that led her to reevaluate herself and vow never to kill again.

This whole "conversation" is on episode 11.
kujoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 18:55   Link #1271
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
i did not finish the show, but seen enough to feel comfortable commenting from the customary position of ignorance.

the show feels rather dated, in a bad way. the personal journey of the kid is well and good, but this is done within a framework of feudal/tribal sensibility that is clearly intentionally crafted. it feels like reading the equivalent of a bonald or something without irony. typically, when one reads an account of feudal or tribal life, the tale is either so absurdly out of this world reactionary, or it is a clear parody or critique of the system. this show does not stereotype feudal lords in the typical liberal fashion, nor does it portray a picture of exploitation and oppression. it shows rather an idyllic vision of feudal paternalism. the critical politicla thrust, if it is such by teh end of the show, is against divine rights and the most vulgar of founding myths. we are expected to see the flawed but not entirely abhorrent current leadership replaced by an enlightened monarchy led by the grown up kid, whose journey justifies the narrative of leadership and regalia. i find this offensively passe.

it is possible that the kid would take the political problem to the fore in the latter episodes, and maybe like, fuck shit up big time. but given the nonchalance of the earlier episodes, the maneuver is not likely. at best, we are left with a well animated world in which a drama unfolds, but we are neither able to be totally cynical of the ongoing, nor totally sincere.

the tribal aura around this show is very heavy, the unabashed mysticism does not help, nor does balsa's cliche background. cliche because it went 16+ eps without getting beyond "i want to save an equal number of people as i've killed, and save means i must save their lives from immediate physical harm within a contractual bodyguard relationship." you figure that during the course of things, she would gain some new perspectives on her place and duties. there is something stereotypically japanese in the singlemindedness commitment to ideals set forth at the very beginning. where is the reflection. was rather tired of waiting for this development to happen.
__________________
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 19:26   Link #1272
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
She did as a bodyguard. Tanda's words went something like: "There's no point in saving people if you were killing others." He even further asked her if she was killing more than she was saving... and that line of questioning was what made her leave for a long time. But ever since then, as Balsa herself says, it was precisely that confrontation that led her to reevaluate herself and vow never to kill again.

This whole "conversation" is on episode 11.
That contradicts what was shown later in the series.
Wesley84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-24, 20:18   Link #1273
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
That contradicts what was shown later in the series.
Not really. The anime doesn't show Balsa's early bodyguard years, and so we can only infer what it must have been like through her very own words. All we have is what she is right now. She's under that oath in the present, so it only makes sense that we have a Balsa who doesn't kill in the series.
kujoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 07:17   Link #1274
mdauben
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In a world all my own
Quote:
Originally Posted by anselfir View Post
i did not finish the show, but seen enough to feel comfortable commenting from the customary position of ignorance.
Uh huh.

Quote:
i find this offensively passe.
Well, if you went into this series expecting an exposé on the social inequities of the feudal system in some mythical world, I can see where you would be disappointed. Why you would expect such a thing in a piece of popular entertainment is beyond me, however.

If you are offended by a fantasy story that does not highlight the plight of the working class, or the injustice of the ruling elite (which I will freely admit existed in the real life historical societies that the anime's world is based on) then you must not like much fantasy, as that is not a theme I see often at all, and in fact I think most readers/viewers would not accept such heavy handed social comentary in their entertainment and any such story would garner little popular support.

Quote:
there is something stereotypically japanese in the singlemindedness commitment to ideals set forth at the very beginning.
Hardly supprising, considering this was a Japanese anime, based on a story written by a Japanese author for a Japanese audience. There are certain themes common in Japanese stories (duty, honor, family) just like there are common themes in American stories (individuality, personal fulfilment). The themes common in Japanese stories are not automatically reactionary or inferior to those in American stories. The differences simply reflect the differences in the culture and history of the two societies and neither one is totally supperior to the other.
__________________
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-4/711686/urdsiggyformdaubenke6.JPG
mdauben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 07:20   Link #1275
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdauben View Post
Uh huh.


Well, if you went into this series expecting an exposé on the social inequities of the feudal system in some mythical world, I can see where you would be disappointed. Why you would expect such a thing in a piece of popular entertainment is beyond me, however.

If you are offended by a fantasy story that does not highlight the plight of the working class, or the injustice of the ruling elite (which I will freely admit existed in the real life historical societies that the anime's world is based on) then you must not like much fantasy, as that is not a theme I see often at all, and in fact I think most readers/viewers would not accept such heavy handed social comentary in their entertainment and any such story would garner little popular support.


Hardly supprising, considering this was a Japanese anime, based on a story written by a Japanese author for a Japanese audience. There are certain themes common in Japanese stories (duty, honor, family) just like there are common themes in American stories (individuality, personal fulfilment). The themes common in Japanese stories are not automatically reactionary or inferior to those in American stories.

uuu forgets self indulgences and changing things to force feed the lowest common denominator better (anime has not bottomed out in general just yet).
:X
ZippyDSM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 08:51   Link #1276
signorRossi
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
@anselfir
a movie (not anime) recommendation for you:
The River Fuefuki
Really worth a watch.
signorRossi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 09:34   Link #1277
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by anselfir View Post
i did not finish the show, but seen enough to feel comfortable commenting from the customary position of ignorance.

the show feels rather dated, in a bad way. the personal journey of the kid is well and good, but this is done within a framework of feudal/tribal sensibility that is clearly intentionally crafted. it feels like reading the equivalent of a bonald or something without irony. typically, when one reads an account of feudal or tribal life, the tale is either so absurdly out of this world reactionary, or it is a clear parody or critique of the system. this show does not stereotype feudal lords in the typical liberal fashion, nor does it portray a picture of exploitation and oppression. it shows rather an idyllic vision of feudal paternalism. the critical politicla thrust, if it is such by teh end of the show, is against divine rights and the most vulgar of founding myths. we are expected to see the flawed but not entirely abhorrent current leadership replaced by an enlightened monarchy led by the grown up kid, whose journey justifies the narrative of leadership and regalia. i find this offensively passe.

it is possible that the kid would take the political problem to the fore in the latter episodes, and maybe like, fuck shit up big time. but given the nonchalance of the earlier episodes, the maneuver is not likely. at best, we are left with a well animated world in which a drama unfolds, but we are neither able to be totally cynical of the ongoing, nor totally sincere.

the tribal aura around this show is very heavy, the unabashed mysticism does not help, nor does balsa's cliche background. cliche because it went 16+ eps without getting beyond "i want to save an equal number of people as i've killed, and save means i must save their lives from immediate physical harm within a contractual bodyguard relationship." you figure that during the course of things, she would gain some new perspectives on her place and duties. there is something stereotypically japanese in the singlemindedness commitment to ideals set forth at the very beginning. where is the reflection. was rather tired of waiting for this development to happen.
I don't quite see what you're getting at. You expect every story set in a medieval society to have the "hero" go "screw that, viva la revolution, let's instaure a democratic republic"?

Sure, there were great inequalities. There are great inequalities today. And then as now, the lower classes weren't stuck in perpetual despair and misery. Sure, they lacked many of the luxuries we take for granted, like literacy, let alone the internet. And a variety of catastrophes (flood, droughts, wars...) got them killed en masse. But mostly they got by, or we wouldn't be here today.

I'm not trying to say the feudal system is better. But I think it's quite permissible to make a show where throwing it down isn't in the cards.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 09:36   Link #1278
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
That and there's some kind of mystical contract with the land for prosperity.
Wesley84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 09:53   Link #1279
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by anselfir View Post
i did not finish the show, but seen enough to feel comfortable commenting from the customary position of ignorance.

the show feels rather dated, in a bad way. the personal journey of the kid is well and good, but this is done within a framework of feudal/tribal sensibility that is clearly intentionally crafted. it feels like reading the equivalent of a bonald or something without irony. typically, when one reads an account of feudal or tribal life, the tale is either so absurdly out of this world reactionary, or it is a clear parody or critique of the system. this show does not stereotype feudal lords in the typical liberal fashion, nor does it portray a picture of exploitation and oppression. it shows rather an idyllic vision of feudal paternalism. the critical politicla thrust, if it is such by teh end of the show, is against divine rights and the most vulgar of founding myths. we are expected to see the flawed but not entirely abhorrent current leadership replaced by an enlightened monarchy led by the grown up kid, whose journey justifies the narrative of leadership and regalia. i find this offensively passe.

it is possible that the kid would take the political problem to the fore in the latter episodes, and maybe like, fuck shit up big time. but given the nonchalance of the earlier episodes, the maneuver is not likely. at best, we are left with a well animated world in which a drama unfolds, but we are neither able to be totally cynical of the ongoing, nor totally sincere.

the tribal aura around this show is very heavy, the unabashed mysticism does not help, nor does balsa's cliche background. cliche because it went 16+ eps without getting beyond "i want to save an equal number of people as i've killed, and save means i must save their lives from immediate physical harm within a contractual bodyguard relationship." you figure that during the course of things, she would gain some new perspectives on her place and duties. there is something stereotypically japanese in the singlemindedness commitment to ideals set forth at the very beginning. where is the reflection. was rather tired of waiting for this development to happen.
Perhaps you are reading into things without seeing them in the setting of the fiction, each work of fiction needs to be take as it presents itself, I have trouble letting comic movies go as they tend to rape the fiction down so the woolie masses will come to them forgetting that the damage done to the fiction is full blown anal carnage more often than not.

I liked the first 2 Batman films, the rest up to the dark night not so much, 3 and 4 of coarse blow, I hate the Xmem flicks and think Blade was raped for the goth/emo tweens, don't even get me started on old TV shows to film all of them suck but Speed racer which adapted the fiction well by not "adapting" it if you will, hellboy was fun as well.

Even Spider man 1 was ok could have been better 2 and 3...blah...Iron man and Incredable hulk are pretty amazing as they didn't rape the fiction to much.

What I am getting at is what you are willing to brush off for the sake of the fiction, for me this is a well done show from top to bottom its on the scale of Hayao Miyazaki(I can't be the only one to see it?), if you want to nit pick things you find annoying it will just destroy any enjoyment to be had in it, altho for me I don't want to enjoy raped "pabulumized" works of fiction I just can't do it unless its a fun dumb action flick like Judge dread....


rambling oh my! sorry!
ZippyDSM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-25, 19:47   Link #1280
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't quite see what you're getting at. You expect every story set in a medieval society to have the "hero" go "screw that, viva la revolution, let's instaure a democratic republic"?

Sure, there were great inequalities. There are great inequalities today. And then as now, the lower classes weren't stuck in perpetual despair and misery. Sure, they lacked many of the luxuries we take for granted, like literacy, let alone the internet. And a variety of catastrophes (flood, droughts, wars...) got them killed en masse. But mostly they got by, or we wouldn't be here today.

I'm not trying to say the feudal system is better. But I think it's quite permissible to make a show where throwing it down isn't in the cards.
not really, i clearly indicated that another alternative is to have some irony, to laugh at the ongoing affairs.
__________________
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drama, fantasy, historical, production i.g.

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.