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Old 2008-08-12, 00:59   Link #41
The_Three_Kings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
(Since the obvious connection between Buhdism/Hinduism and Zoro's future abilities has been stated, I will not go into the connection too deeply.)

Zoro's "breath" seemed to be more a form of enlightenment, a harmony with nature, that Zoro attained when he was near death while fighting Mr. 1. Specifically, upon his near death experience, Zoro said that he felt the "breath" of all things around him - the placement of the material object within a greater context. He "felt" the life of the universe around him. With this discovery, Zoro found that he could exert his will over the world, specifically by allowing his sword to cut or not to cut. He then showed this ability by "allowing" his sword not to cut a palm leaf (or, possibly, "willing" the leaf to not be cut), and then "allowing" his sword to cut through stone (or, possibly "willing" the stone to be cut). His abilities then become, not a forced control over nature, but rather the ability to work in harmony with nature, finding a way to understand the universe and see how the world works. Then again, I could be looking at this far too philosophically .

That being said, Haki seems to be more of a "forced" ability (stemming entirely from one's own willpower). Specifically, the power seems to force one's own will on another, forcing them into submission.
I agree with you on Haki and willpower but about Zoro I have to disagree. (O by the way he never tried to cut a leaf, that was in a flashback. And it was steel not stone).
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Old 2008-08-12, 01:26   Link #42
Wisshard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
(Since the obvious connection between Buhdism/Hinduism and Zoro's future abilities has been stated, I will not go into the connection too deeply.)

Zoro's "breath" seemed to be more a form of enlightenment, a harmony with nature, that Zoro attained when he was near death while fighting Mr. 1. Specifically, upon his near death experience, Zoro said that he felt the "breath" of all things around him - the placement of the material object within a greater context. He "felt" the life of the universe around him. With this discovery, Zoro found that he could exert his will over the world, specifically by allowing his sword to cut or not to cut. He then showed this ability by "allowing" his sword not to cut a palm leaf (or, possibly, "willing" the leaf to not be cut), and then "allowing" his sword to cut through stone (or, possibly "willing" the stone to be cut). His abilities then become, not a forced control over nature, but rather the ability to work in harmony with nature, finding a way to understand the universe and see how the world works. Then again, I could be looking at this far too philosophically .

That being said, Haki seems to be more of a "forced" ability (stemming entirely from one's own willpower). Specifically, the power seems to force one's own will on another, forcing them into submission.
Indeed, I find I agree more with your view than what I said earlier. And no, I don't think you are looking at it too philosophically, in fact that interpretation makes Zoro even more simulair to a samurai. Just also want to say that Chi is also about harmony so there is a parallel there too, but as you said the connection between Zoro and various of religions are obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Three_Kings View Post
(O by the way he never tried to cut a leaf, that was in a flashback. And it was steel not stone).
Actually, what james0246 is correct. He did have a flashback to his teacher explaining how you when you are able to cut steel you are also able to cut nothing, and then in present he slashed against a leaf but didn't cut it and then slashed against a big rock slicing it in half. It was after that he attacked and managed to cut Mr. 1.
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Old 2008-08-12, 08:03   Link #43
kari-no-sugata
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We've speculated that Haki may be one general purpose way in which to be able to deal damage to a Logia user. It may not be the only (general purpose) way but it may be the best (general purpose) way.

However, what if a Logia user had Haki too? Or at least, Kizaru here. That'd make them even harder to take down. So conversely I suspect that even marine admiral Kizaru isn't a Haki user. That might be a good indication of how rare skilled Haki users are.
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Old 2008-08-12, 11:17   Link #44
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Actually, I've had the thought that Blackbeard may be Haki master, as well. Considering that he willingly ate a Logia fruit that still leaves the user solid, that would obviously mean that he had a great deal of confidence in his physical abilities. I mean sure, his power can nullify other DF powers, but it won't make much difference if the user is strong enough to get a quick attack on him before they get affected by his gravity (as proven by Ace). Maybe he even managed to wound Shanks by countering his Haki with his own...


Oh, and I still stand by Nami knowing Haki, too. Oda even sort of hints this in an SBS when he says Nami and co. beat up Luffy with a "strong sense of purpose" (ambition)? Heh, maybe one day even she'll get so pissed at Luffy that he'll hit him with enough force to split the sky!
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Old 2008-08-12, 12:35   Link #45
The_Three_Kings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisshard View Post
Indeed, I find I agree more with your view than what I said earlier. And no, I don't think you are looking at it too philosophically, in fact that interpretation makes Zoro even more simulair to a samurai. Just also want to say that Chi is also about harmony so there is a parallel there too, but as you said the connection between Zoro and various of religions are obvious.



Actually, what james0246 is correct. He did have a flashback to his teacher explaining how you when you are able to cut steel you are also able to cut nothing, and then in present he slashed against a leaf but didn't cut it and then slashed against a big rock slicing it in half. It was after that he attacked and managed to cut Mr. 1.
I just re-watched the episode and no he didnt cut a leaf. There are no leaves in Alabasta there. BTW Zoro could already cut through stone and he just realized how to cut through steel.
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Old 2008-08-12, 12:45   Link #46
Wisshard
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Originally Posted by The_Three_Kings View Post
I just re-watched the episode and no he didnt cut a leaf. There are no leaves in Alabasta there. BTW Zoro could already cut through stone and he just realized how to cut through steel.
In Manga it's in Chapter 195 Page 18, he slashes against palm leaves but doesn't cut it, and in next picture he slashes a stone in half. Yes, he could already cut through stone I think it was just showing that had reached a higher state of harmony with nature and he could choose to cut or not to cut.

In Anime it's in episode 119 at 19:34 he slashes at the palm leaves.

EDIT: Removed the link because it was against forum policy.

Last edited by Wisshard; 2008-08-12 at 13:20.
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Old 2008-08-12, 12:52   Link #47
The_Three_Kings
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Originally Posted by Wisshard View Post
In Manga it's in Chapter 195 Page 18, he slashes against palm leaves but doesn't cut it, and in next picture he slashes a stone in half. Yes, he could already cut through stone I think it was just showing that had reached a higher state of harmony with nature and he could choose to cut or not to cut.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/195/18/ Last three images of the page.

In Anime it's in episode 119 at 19:34 he slashes at the palm leaves.
O your right there are palm leaves. But Zoro can decide if he wants to cut it or not. Its like us when WE choose to do something. It was all up to Zoro if he wanted to cut it or not, even before he heard the Breath of All Things.

Okay now lets get back to Haki....
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Old 2008-08-12, 13:13   Link #48
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisshard View Post
In Manga it's in Chapter 195 Page 18, he slashes against palm leaves but doesn't cut it, and in next picture he slashes a stone in half. Yes, he could already cut through stone I think it was just showing that had reached a higher state of harmony with nature and he could choose to cut or not to cut.

[snip] Last three images of the page.

In Anime it's in episode 119 at 19:34 he slashes at the palm leaves.
Thank you for quoting the manga chapter in order to help explain my above point, but, since you are new, I should tell you that you can not post anything from that website. That website is highly illegal (since it is used to post licensed images), so it is against forum policy to use any images from that website.

Rather, you should copy the page and then post it here. But, remember, it is also against forum policy to post an image of a full page from the manga. Rather, we can post panal(s), but not a full page.
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Old 2008-08-12, 13:22   Link #49
Wisshard
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I should tell you that you can not post anything from that website. That website is highly illegal (since it is used to post licensed images), so it is against forum policy to use any images from that website.
Oh, thanks for telling me, I've removed the link now.
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Old 2008-08-13, 22:36   Link #50
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from what I see, Haki so far has not been seen as an attacking ability. Maybe we are reading too much into it?

It merely seems like a manifestationof willpower or an aura. Somewhat like a scary aura, spiritual intensity or in a lot of manga "sha qi" basically killing intent. We've seen in other manga that a person affect by the killing intent can be scared stiff and start trenbling helplessly, only in this case it has been extended to becoming unconscious.

It also explains how marco was trembling but didn't become unconsious, he was able to handle the aura but was still intimidated.

Silver merely seems to have the ability to target the aura to individuals.

I doubt haki will be something that will be used as a weapon against really strong opponents. But, it will become the reason why a small crew(strawhats) is able to survive in the new world; merely because most of the opposing crews are made up of low lvl pple who will not be able to even contribute by blocking. If the amrines threw a few ships full of crew + the captains and commodores at the strawhats, the strawhats will die just from exhuastion of hitting and "killing" the marine privates and smaller ranks. But haki would mean that the lower ranks are useless even as cannon fodder and even the odds.
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Old 2008-08-14, 10:41   Link #51
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I think haki is just a persons fighting spirit. Their fighting spirit simply overwhelms weaker opponents and causes them to faint. I don't believe it'll ever work on say, an admiral, unless Luffi becomes something like Goku...

That's how it seemed to me anyway.
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Old 2008-08-14, 19:46   Link #52
Ermes Marana
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I don't think anybody thought it could be used to make an admiral faint. I don't think that could happen either.

The question is, how can Whitebeard beat a Logia-using admiral?

And if he can't, why would he be called the strongest man in the world?


Based on that, people are guessing that maybe he can use Haki in other ways to allow him to hit a Logia user or something.


Or it could be something none of us have thought of yet (very possible).


Or he could just use be very good at using the weaknesses of DF users (water, seastone).
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Old 2008-08-14, 20:28   Link #53
Hisoka??
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
I don't think anybody thought it could be used to make an admiral faint. I don't think that could happen either.

The question is, how can Whitebeard beat a Logia-using admiral?

And if he can't, why would he be called the strongest man in the world?


Based on that, people are guessing that maybe he can use Haki in other ways to allow him to hit a Logia user or something.


Or it could be something none of us have thought of yet (very possible).


Or he could just use be very good at using the weaknesses of DF users (water, seastone).
my point is it may not even be haki related as haki has shown no real atacking ability yet.

it could be just easily as youmentioned, using seastone weapons. or maybe somethign similar to the breath technique zoro is learning.

an alternative is actually that logias are not that invincible. for example, maybe there's a limit to how much of their body can be transformed at one time. so maybe it's about attacking the x% of the body that is still solid
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Old 2008-08-19, 17:28   Link #54
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Thinking back now, I recall that a few years back on another forum (I think it may have been AP, but I'm not certain) there were people who considered the possibility of a future character being a kind of monk or holy man that had the ability to "seal" Devil Fruit powers. What if Haki had that function? We're already talking about how Haki may temporarily nullify a user's ability, but what if, through another person's sheer "ambition", they completely lose their powers? I'd think that would be most interesting if that were the case....
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Old 2008-08-19, 18:23   Link #55
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Thinking back now, I recall that a few years back on another forum (I think it may have been AP, but I'm not certain) there were people who considered the possibility of a future character being a kind of monk or holy man that had the ability to "seal" Devil Fruit powers. What if Haki had that function? We're already talking about how Haki may temporarily nullify a user's ability, but what if, through another person's sheer "ambition", they completely lose their powers? I'd think that would be most interesting if that were the case....
If Haki has the function to completely seal devil fruit powers in a fight it would be really cheap. It would render the use of devil fruits obsolete and would in turn put all devil fruit users at a serious disadvantage. Furthermore, I doubt that the full extent of Haki will be this powerful. If it were to be this powerful, why did Blackbeard eat a devil fruit in the first place if he knows it would be to absolutely no avail or use against Haki users? His goal is to become the pirate king and in order to do so he would have to remove any opposition in his way, but this goal would not be feasible if Haki has the ability to completely seal devil fruit powers. This whole time Blackbeard has been certain that it is his darkness devil fruit ability that will be pivotal towards making him the new pirate king. He would not have this assertion if Haki indeed has the power to make devil fruits useless.
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Old 2008-08-19, 18:28   Link #56
james0246
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
If Haki has the function to completely seal devil fruit powers in a fight it would be really cheap. It would render the use of devil fruits obsolete and would in turn put all devil fruit users at a serious disadvantage. Furthermore, I doubt that the full extent of Haki will be this powerful. If it were to be this powerful, why did Blackbeard eat a devil fruit in the first place if he knows it would be to absolutely no avail or use against Haki users? His goal is to become the pirate king and in order to do so he would have to remove any opposition in his way, but this goal would not be feasible if Haki has the ability to completely seal devil fruit powers.
Added to that, Blackbeard described his devil fruit as having the only power (besides Seastone) that can completely suppress other Devil fruit powers. So, I doubt there is anyone beside Blackbeard with such a suppression power on the Grand Line.

I do like the idea of Haki being able to momentarily force a Logia user to become 'solid', but I do not expect it to be the end-all-be-all answer to everything in the future.
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Old 2008-08-19, 19:12   Link #57
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Yeah... it was just a brain fart I had. It does sound overpowered now that I think about it. Still, I wouldn't be too surprised if a method of sealing DF powers does pop up at some point in the future (and not necessarily through martial arts, either. Maybe the Ancient Weapons could have something to do with it....?).


Well, I'm still hoping that Haki will at least "solidify" Logias during battle, as was already stated.
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Old 2008-08-20, 07:59   Link #58
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Hmmm I don't come over to this subforum much but I'm an up to date follower of One Piece manga. I do have something to say about Haki.

To the western world Haki is something that's not properly understood, even in this thread. Simply because there's no single word that describes Haki well enough. But to us East Asians, Japanese and Chinese, the words Haki is an instantly understood term. It is a term that is Asian in origin and loosely phrased and understood in the Western world.

What Haki really is and means:

The words Ha and Ki, meaning 'dominate' and 'air'. Together you can make out something like 'air of dominance/atmosphere of fear' or better phrased, 'Aura of dominance/supremacy' or 'Aura of fear/terror'.

You can't really train yourself to just have Haki, it does not happen by itself or just suddenly. When you train yourself to become stronger or over time have attained some form of aggression, Haki will come along. It is something that builds up over experience and time and can be activated at will. But it can also be something that happens involutarily, examples of Haki in various forms:

A large wrestler say, 'The Rock'. If you, as a normal person stands in the ring and he is about to charge towards you, or just staring hard at you, you will be pretty much in fear. But once he puts on some clothes and goes off stage and becomes friendly, even the kids can approach him easily for an autograph.

Your pet dog is a cute and lovable family member, but if anyone trys to snatch its food bowl it will bark ferociously baring its teeth. Even you yourself would be quite fearful.

Those are examples of actively expressing Haki physically through appearance and facial expression.

Examples of involutary Haki:

An infamous gangster that has been jailed for years but still remembered by people for his doings. He was known to have beaten several people to a bloody pulp before getting into jail, but since then he has already turned over a new leaf. He walks on the street trying to be friendly but people just turns silent wherever he goes, simply because they know he was a violent criminal.

No matter how tame a lion or a bear is, it is a wild animal and for that we are wary even if they are circus animals dressed in frilly costumes. You would have fear to approach them to take pictures even if they are chained and in cages.
--------------

In One Piece Haki is basically much the same, the amplification of fear. Though we've seen its effects with much more extreme results. Like Shanks making people fear him so much that they foam from their own fear. And Rayleigh demonstrating how you can spread fear to others but at the same time not to people who you are not hostile towards.

So Haki cutting the sky into two? No, its not their Haki, its just the pure power, the power of them clashing.

Haki flinching Logias? Plausible, if someone could perform an action or expression that can instill enough fear, Logias could literally solidfy in their tracks.
---------------

About Zoro: I agree on parts where it is a manifestation of his Haki or rather Sakki(killing intent). Sakki is another form of Haki that is also very common in Eastern manga, Akuma and Evil Ryu is famous for their Sakki. Shun Goku Satsu is an attack that uses their Sakki to strike terror into the opponent, render them helpless and allows Akuma to unleash a killing combo. Sakki is a much darker form of Haki, it does not spread just fear of the individual, but fear that they may be killed.

Zoro's Asura strikes fear into the opponent messing up their minds and together with his incredibly fast movements, creates an illusion where he suddenly gains extra heads and limbs like the demon Asura himself.
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Old 2008-08-25, 15:48   Link #59
sanzo
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wow.....thnx for making it so clear.
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Old 2008-08-25, 16:19   Link #60
marvelB
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Indeed, I also give my gratitude for your making the nature of Haki clear. However, there's still one mystery as far as Zoro is concerned: When he used his Asura move on Kaku, he was able to somehow turn Kaku's Rankyaku into mist. I think that this may suggest that there may be a wee bit more to Zoro's Haki (or in his case, Sakki) than simply intimidating his opponents. Of course, there's also the possibility that the mist was a result of Kaku messing up his technique due to his fear of the "demon god" manifestation from Zoro's aura, but I kinda doubt it....
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