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Old 2008-08-24, 22:30   Link #101
Royal_Devil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
I don't know why, but 3-D always turns me off. It's just so...ugly (to be put in a bland way). They always have to move so much, like moving their arms or bopping their head every 5 seconds.
Maybe because it's realistic? In fact, after I read your post I actually looked and was surprised how many people actually moved their heads like that.
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Old 2008-08-24, 22:45   Link #102
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Looking things up helps. Since you've apparently missed any news about The Princess and the Frog. (note: I am not making any claims as to its quality, just that Lasseter and Clements are interested in going back to 2D and that this is Disney's first attempt back)
You know its gonna fail harder than christian rock.

Anyway, I do agree that it has a lot to do with story telling. Anime generally have a cohesive story with character development, emotions, plot, etc... While american animation is generally just one big gag with no real point or purpose but for a cheap laugh. I'm not really into that, except for shows like futurama and family guy. Anime like Excel Saga, really turns me off as its basically just a more extreme version of looney tunes.

I've been watching anime for roughly 20 years now, but I still enjoy a good american cartoon here and there. Teen Titans being one of them. But, as a whole, its just so... blah?
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Old 2008-08-24, 22:50   Link #103
xxmimixx
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As I was growing up, I always like to watch WTTW11, nick, CN, Disney, and sometimes WCIU. They had really good cartoon shows and other cool stuff, but now, I don't watch much of those stuff anymore. Well I still watch Spongebob Squarepants, That's so Raven, The Rugrats, All That and etc. Oh when we use to have cable, I always watched Robot Chicken <-- so funny xD.

Freaking Disney channel has now some really stupid shows now and I think that most of them aren't funny or not my style anymore. Oh and of course, almost everyday now on WTTW11 kids, I watch Arthur because arthur is still funny and I look buster in a different view now xD
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:22   Link #104
Kamui4356
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I think a lot of the "They're just ripping off anime" comments come from the companies deliberatly mimicing the style to try to attract mainstream anime fans rather than the creators being strongly influenced by it and reflecting that influence in their own style in most instances.

Though I'm not sure I'd agree American 2d animation is dead. There are quite a few new shows. Of course most of them are unwatchable to me, though I wonder how I'd react to the shows I liked growing up if I saw them for the first time now. Was the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series really better than the new one or do I just remember it that way out of nostalga?
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:28   Link #105
HayashiTakara
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Its nostalgia definately... I loved TMNT back in the olden days... I rewatched some episodes a few months ago on dvd, and I was like.... "wow.. this was really bad", some things are best left in memory, lol.
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:39   Link #106
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
You know its gonna fail harder than christian rock.
And how do you know that? And for all your talk about wanting 2D back you immediately write off the first try? With attitudes like that I can see why Disney sticks to 3D so much these days.

And the new TMNT is better than the old series if only because it's more like the ORIGINAL comic series. You know, where Shredder is a viable threat?

A lot of these remake series seem to be stuck on a seesaw.

Not many people like the style for Transformers Animated but the plots not involving human villains are generally better and the Decepticons are shown as an actual threat more often, complete with a battle cry "Transform and rise up!" as opposed to "Decepticons retreat!"

Spectacular Spiderman features the best fights in any version of the series and overall the plots are as good as they get with Spiderman outside of the comics (the inclusion of Gwen Stacy as the love interest also helps). But once again, many don't like the art style.
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:44   Link #107
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
And how do you know that? And for all your talk about wanting 2D back you immediately write off the first try? With attitudes like that I can see why Disney sticks to 3D so much these days.

And the new TMNT is better than the old series if only because it's more like the ORIGINAL comic series. You know, where Shredder is a viable threat?

A lot of these remake series seem to be stuck on a seesaw.

Not many people like the style for Transformers Animated but the plots not involving human villains are generally better and the Decepticons are shown as an actual threat more often, complete with a battle cry "Transform and rise up!" as opposed to "Decepticons retreat!"

Spectacular Spiderman features the best fights in any version of the series and overall the plots are as good as they get with Spiderman outside of the comics (the inclusion of Gwen Stacy as the love interest also helps). But ones again, many don't like the art style.
The problem with disney is their mindset. Its constant rehash of Snow White and Cinderella. The whole Princess and Prince Charming story line is so 19th century. If they would invest their talents into making a really good story and characters, I'm all up for it.

The Fox and the Hound is my all time favorite Disney Movie. Maybe another one along the lines of this would catch my attention.

Edit: Oh, the new Transformers cartoons are animes.
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:54   Link #108
Royal_Devil
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If they would invest their talents into making a really good story and characters, I'm all up for it.
And if this has good characters and story despite using an old trope? Having cliches doesn't mean the characters can't be good. Besides, this isn't the old "fall-in-love-at-first-sight" thing as with most Disney movies. If you've seen the trailer, you'd see that Tiana is actually quite repulsed at the thought of kissing a frog, much to said frog's frustration. Sort of like Beauty and the Beast actually.

Then again, my favorite Disney movie is Fantasia, which had little plot at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Edit: Oh, the new Transformers cartoons are animes.
The Armada series are all Japanese. They had original Japanese voices and everything. They all sucked btw.

Transformers Animated is produced by CN and animated in Japan so I don't know how one classifies that. Episodes with human villains suck. When the Decepticons are the actual villains the episodes are quite good.

Though the best in terms of plot and characters is Beast Wars, which is all Canadian. In fact, the Japanese dub butchered the show.

Come to think of it, a lot of the 2D series Jetix show and a number CN shows are actually Canadian or European in origin. This isn't surprising when they come from France since manga is very prolific there.
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Old 2008-08-24, 23:56   Link #109
solomon
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Anime and American Cartoons isn't quite apples and oranges all the time by any means, but yea there are differences.

It's the way their respective industries/audiences developed that creates a huge impact on how it's thought of or consumed.

People will say that Naruto is heads and shoulders above american cartoons in terms of depth, and maturity.

If that's the case why is it's consumer base in japan based on grade schoolers. With few exceptions amongst mainstream youth in Japan; Anime still is generally seen as for kids or for hardcore nerds cause they don't offer mainstream audiences what they want.

Mai Hime, heres an example or Rahxephon. These are more mature than say Naruto and one piece but they are only consumed by hardcore fans, like how star trek is done today in the states.


Gotta be careful when we say anime is SOOOOOOOO much more "mature" then american cartoons, that's kinda subjective. Just cause naruto has a linear plot and blood and sexual innuendo make it more "mature" then say Batman the Animated Series.


On Disney, yea Disney isn't bad, it heralded innovation. However I agree that the Princess and the Frog seems essentially the same old stuff from disney. It breaks no new mold, Disney is a big part of the institution of Animation=kids stuff. It looks like it will only appeal to little girls/kids and parents who are looking for "safe, wholesome children/family entertainment" (BLEH!)
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Old 2008-08-25, 00:08   Link #110
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by solomon View Post
It breaks no new mold, Disney is a big part of the institution of Animation=kids stuff. It looks like it will only appeal to little girls/kids and parents who are looking for "safe, wholesome children/family entertainment" (BLEH!)
So have you never liked Disney films? If not, why do you like the ones you like?

And I never quite got what HT meant by "along those lines". What lines?
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Old 2008-08-25, 00:31   Link #111
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Well sure I like disney films. I can appreciate many of the ones done before Walt died even if they aren't the most exciting movie. Like Snow White, it's a technical marvel and an epoch making work, but on it's own I didn't find it TOO captivating as entertainment.

Snow White also lead to the cliche reliance on smarmy renditions of fairy tales or "princess stories", Snow WHite, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast.

If Disney followed the Hunchback of Notre Dame more to the letter it could have been revolutonary and a great movie, but if you've read the novel or even if you've actually read Grimms Fairy Tales you can see why Disney wouldn't do em when they earned their millions from not upsetting a social order that animation has to be the safe and non threatening form of media and when it had to make tons of merch dollers from the pockets of audiences expecting such media.

Some of these are better than others but due to many factors both great and small those became the norm and Disney rarely was as daring as other studios were in content and tone of his pictures.

Now here's where I get more subjective/opinionated

Now Fantasia is great, cause it's unique/daring unlike ANYTHING any major studio did at the time. Had that film been a huge sucess it could have opened the door to many more mold breaking films, but It was a huge money loser. So what did disney do? Go back to talking animals and fairy tales, told in an increasingly cliche matter and bland flavor.

I like some films that break from what I see as a preconcieved disney blandness. 101 dalmations is a great example, no fairies/princes/princesses. A setting, tone and cast of characters uniquely British, a unique villaness in Cruella de Vill, not to mention the inarguable technical mastery of artistry that is par for the course for Disney.

Also in terms of artistry it was individual as well, thanks to unique stylized modern designs by Bill Peet, Mark Davis and Walt Pergoy (sp?) that were different from the previously (VERY) naturalistic design of the pre-60s era.

Then you have Oliver and Company. In the context of disney history of the time unremarkable but another one that once again had a unique flavor that managed to have a noticable individualism that grabbed your attention while still maintaining the disney-happily ever after story formula. It's essentially the same feelings I had about 101 dalmations but this time with an 80s New York Flavor that had actual versimilatude, it was believable and authentic in terms of the story.

The emperors new groove was a wildly funny film that pulled off pop culture references and celebrity voices and slapstick without being forced and out of place. Primarily cause it didn't try to be a huge weepy psuedo drama like Pochahontas wanted to be, but had too many comic relief elements and pulled dramatic punches to be authentic. It was a comedy and that's it.


So my problem with disney can be summed up in what the historical concensus was.;While facilitaing a dynamic studio in terms of techinical and artistic skill. In terms of artistic CONTENT (like in plot and design to a certain degree) he was bland, timid and too unwillng to drastically explore radical new ideas, particularly in relation to plot.

In other words, Too often they're BLAAAANND like plain white rice cooked lukewarm.
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Old 2008-08-25, 01:34   Link #112
Neki Ecko
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Well, for me

I was born in the late 70's (damn, it sounds so old now) and I have a chance to look at alot of American Cartoons like

Thundercats
SilverHawks
Joyce and Wheel Warriors
Visonaries
alot of HB stuff including old school heros like Birdman, Galaxy Trio, Moby, and many others (I look at them on Boomrang, when I am at home)

even famous shows that actually sucks ass like
Mr. T
Rambo
WWF Westlers
Chuck Norris

Even through the 90's with Superman/Batman/Spiderman TAS, they were very good but then after that, American TV started to drop off badly because of alot of people was tired see different type of Power Rangers every year (even know that I like Original, Wild Force, SPD, and Dino Thunder) it was starting to get very old, very fast. Plus Eastern Animation was starting to take over the Airways after DBZ, Pokemon and Sailor Moon was bring alot of people to start to look at Anime alot.

Pop Quiz: Can you remember what Saturday line-up that FOX Kids had about 10 years ago(hint: PR abd Digi was one of the major headlines, there) and what do they have now?

Here is the biggest reason for me was because the context of storylines between Eastern Animation and Western Animation.
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Old 2008-08-25, 02:22   Link #113
Irenicus
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There's just one thing that really ruins the entire Cartoon Network block for me.

Scatology!

What's so fucking funny about fart jokes and disgusting shit? Ugh. It wasn't funny when Jonathan Swift did it and it isn't funny now. At least the Japanese version of "puerile" doesn't equate immediately to such shenanigans...well, ignoring the extreme ones at least, and certainly not every bloody cartoon in the damn channel.

Oh, and the retarded characters. Japan has its own version, equally annoying admittedly (did anyone ever got the urge to shoot Tomo of Azumanga Daioh? Really bad?), but at least there are other anime out there where I don't have to encounter that and there's something about cultural barriers that serve to reduce the impact of such epic failures, for me at least.

On the other hand, the more mature American cartoons are often tied in with the Western comic world, or at least the superhero part of it. And I'm not a fan of superheroes, so it isn't something I'll go looking for either. Justice League? Nah.

And then there's Disney...

...who alternates constantly between producing a masterpiece, or at least a good piece, once in a while; five horrible sequels for said piece, five more direct-to-video crappy movies, five criminally bad Disney Channel originals, before returning to creating another good piece again, if they actually ever bothered.

And I don't remember a Disney classic in recent memory. Not the ones that weren't made by Pixar at least.
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Old 2008-08-25, 10:46   Link #114
raikage
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Is it a good thing that western animation has pretty much "died"? Sure theres some crap being churned up now and then, like Ben 10 and what not. But as a whole, from last I remember Saturday morning cartoons was like 90% anime. And Disney had to close down all their 2D animation studios as they were getting their butt stomped by eastern animation. Resulting in massive job loss.

My former animation teacher was a Disney employee who animated Mulan and other such movies.

Do you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing?
Funny that you say that, when I finished all of Avatar just last night.

I don't really keep up with cartoons or anime anymore, but between that (which is still recent), the DC animated universe, Aqua Teen is still being made, I think, South Park from what I hear is bitingly satirical where it used to just be about kids swearing, Simpsons/Family Guy/American Dad/King of the Hill in primetime -- American animation is pretty far from dead.
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Old 2008-08-25, 11:47   Link #115
HiroInazuma
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To me Family Guy is losing it's funny the seasons before the current one seemed much better same with the simpsons but alas when someone grew up with something old it is hard to accept the new, except Pokemon shows everyone can accept that cos for some reason it is still good! And the only show that I have accepted right now is Robotboy, Storm Hawks, Fosters, Grim Adventures and Codename: Kids Next Door, the rest are stupid like the Boom Crew is just like a space version of the proud family and it is whickedy whickedy whack!
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Old 2008-08-25, 14:24   Link #116
solomon
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In relation to Nicky Eckos Fox Kids question;

I can't remember 10 years ago but I remember a a broad swatch of 90s shows.

Tiny toons
Bobby's World
Animaniacs
Spider Man
X men
Batman; TAS
Eek Stravaganza
Taz Mania

These are their biggest hits (and im my opnion best shows) that ran from early to mid 90s.

After that (by 96-97) I think Kids WB really took the mantle of creating and showing the best cartoons on saturday morning. (not including cable)
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Old 2008-08-25, 19:15   Link #117
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
In relation to Nicky Eckos Fox Kids question;

I can't remember 10 years ago but I remember a a broad swatch of 90s shows.

Tiny toons
Bobby's World
Animaniacs
Spider Man
X men
Batman; TAS
Eek Stravaganza
Taz Mania

These are their biggest hits (and im my opnion best shows) that ran from early to mid 90s.

After that (by 96-97) I think Kids WB really took the mantle of creating and showing the best cartoons on saturday morning. (not including cable)
Those were great, also, Animaniacs, Pink and the Brain and such.
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Old 2008-08-25, 19:54   Link #118
klowny
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i loved the old days with Freakaziod, Hey Arnold, animaniacs and Tiny toon adventures. Also watching looney toons, nowadays they can't even come up with a good TV shows these days darn censors...
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Old 2008-08-25, 20:55   Link #119
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^ Hey Arnold is a good choice for great nick shows on TV =D. Kinda teach me about how to like my sisters no matter where they are (in one episode).Spongebob is still awsome! It's also a great show to get some laugher once in a while and being goofy all day. Other good shows are and still:

Doug
Rosko's Modern life
Ren and Stimpy <-- Funny, and the great HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY thing was a big success!!!
Amanda Show (xD MAHA)
Rugrats
The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! <-- Really kidish, but I thought it was funny though it came out before I was born.

And so much more....

Could name them all day, but whatever, I just love funny cartoons ^^. Some of the cartoons out today like Family Guy and some other animated shows are too random and not so funny in my opinion. Even the "mature" jokes I get (of course since I'm only 15 going on 16 around Xmas) are that funny and not cool. Other than that, I pretty much like PG or PG 13 animations. South Park is a whole different kind of funny that I like 8D
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Old 2008-08-25, 21:16   Link #120
Strahan
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I liked American animation when I was a kid. GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Tale Spin, Duck Tales, Centurions, Pirates of Dark Water, TMNT, Smurfs, MASK, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, He-Man, uhhh that's about all I remember hehe.

Nowadays, IMO, our animation stinks. My girlfriend watches Nickelodeon / Cartoon Network all the time. Most of the stuff I see when I'm bored enough to sit there and watch TV with her is so horribly vapid I can't take it for more than 5 minutes. The stories are weak as hell and the whole tone is very dumbed down. Granted, 80s cartoons weren't exactly award winning either but the stories were alot more interesting and actually had a plot. I thought maybe I'm just putting them on a pedestal thanks to my memories so I went and obtained eps of GI Joe, Thundercats and Smurfs. GI Joe is still as cool as I remember, except for the fact that in all the freaking storms of laserfire NOBODY ever gets so much as a SCRATCH. Everyone always manages to jump out of their tanks in time lol. Then there are smurfs.. gawd I didn't remember then saying "smurf" so darned much. That's annoying as hell hehe.

So anyway.. I think I'll pass on American animation. Well.. with the exception of Family Guy. That is the one amusing exception.
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