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Old 2008-08-23, 01:02   Link #201
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamantEG View Post
Sorry, not trying to revive old-wounds, but...

I've actually been trying to figure some things out, instead of just looking at Ichigo, Isshin, or Masaki, I've been trying to contemplate how outside-forces could affect what, or who Isshin Kurosaki really is, was, or will be.

However, I always come to the same damn conclusion; That Kaien Shiba is involved. I don't mean the two being the same, but Kaien being a central-figure in the plot around Isshin. Truly, Kubo was a genious at outlining every-character, making it impossible for us to guess what an answer to their past is, so easily.

I've ran across several possibilities, and path's extending from the roots of those possibilities, and some include the following:


- Ichigo really is the reincarnation of Kaien, but without the memories, obviously.

Path 1: As stated, no memories; However, it's never been explicitly stated that Shinigami don't retain their spiritual in the life. Maybe Ichigo had Kaien's power embedded deep within him? It's possible that being Isshin's son has nothing to do with how fast he developed; If he is the reincarnation of Kaien himself, then he would retain most of the traits, save for a few. It explains how fast he progressed -- Kaien was a "true shinigami prodegy for progressing through a six-year curriculum in only one-year". If you give it thought, it has ground, but... It leads to more path's, but I don't want to wear it down.
Major problems with this. First there is pretty much no way Kaien could have been reborn as Ichigo. When he died he was mostly a hollow so he should have been cleansed and reborn in SS like a hollow would but he wasn't his body ended up in HM where #9 ate it gaining all his knowlage and powers. now It's a little unclear about what happens to souls eaten by hollows but pretty much everything points to those souls not being freed on the death of the hollow. once a soul is eaten it is gone. So at best Kaien's soul was traped in #9 till Rukia killed him but more likely he is gone.
Quote:
Path 2: Isshin was indeed the King of Soul-Society, and had access to a vastly more-powerful knowledge of spells and skills not able to that of any ordinary resident, shinigami, or captain in the Gotei 13. Hell, I'd go as far as throwing the Chamber of 46, or whatever their called, into that category.

He was obviously aware that Kaien was going to be reborn in the human-world, and... Well, this is a sub-path scenario:

1 - He used a long-forgotten spell that sacrificed most of a shinigami's powers to attain a human-form for a very-temporary time. IE: Twenty-years. When he did this, he saved the rest, which was around Ichigo's starting spirit-pressure, and gave it to his son when he was born, but stored it within him, making it slowly-developing, so he wouldn't be targeted by Hollow's at an infancy age. However, it possibly developed too-fast because of Kaien's natural-abilities from the previous-life he lived in Soul-Society.

2 - Ichigo, Yazzu, Karrin, are all reincarnations of shinigami that Isshin knew in Soul-Society, and realized they could be pivotal... OR, they just meant a lot to him (And realized Kaien's importance if he is indeed reincarnated as Ichigo.), and he wanted to be with them, rather than stay in Soul-Society. Meaning he wondered the human-world, and managed to stop their souls from being reborn, and could choose when they would be born; After finding Masaki. *I find this one to be unlikely, though.*

Path 2: Isshin is indeed the King, but... He was tired of the way the shinigami were conducting themselves and no longer felt comfortable near them, and longed for a life in another world; Thus, he somehow went to the human-world. I have no clue what to think after this, though.

*Will edit later, out of time ATM*
The King doesn't seem to have had much contact with SS at all. 110 years ago Azein seems to have had no idea that there was a Royle guard and he was a VC at the time. And Urahara was responceable for his "power loss" most likely due to the untraceable body like he gave Rukia

If you want to connect Isshin with Kaien you might do better to focus on the Fall of the Shiba clan and the debt Kuukaku had to Urahara. Isshin would almost fit right in as an elder brother to her.
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Old 2008-08-23, 01:08   Link #202
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Weird theories. Myself, I imagine that Urahara had to hide the Hougyoku inside someone, before Rukia. Consequently, Isshin, who volunteered for it, became a renegade and lost his powers. The Hougyoku is known to drain a shinigami's power. After having it in him for so long, once Urahara took it from him (Perhaps because Isshin felt terrible being unable to protect his wife), it took a long while for him to find his powers back, whilst Urahara tried to find a replacement body: Rukia.

I don't think there's any relation between Ichigo and Kaien beyond physical resemblance.
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Old 2008-08-23, 01:14   Link #203
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
Weird theories. Myself, I imagine that Urahara had to hide the Hougyoku inside someone, before Rukia. Consequently, Isshin, who volunteered for it, became a renegade and lost his powers. The Hougyoku is known to drain a shinigami's power. After having it in him for so long, once Urahara took it from him (Perhaps because Isshin felt terrible being unable to protect his wife), it took a long while for him to find his powers back, whilst Urahara tried to find a replacement body: Rukia.

I don't think there's any relation between Ichigo and Kaien beyond physical resemblance.
This theory actually makes the most sense. I think Ichigo and Kaien look alike because KT needed something to make Rukia think of Kaien, and how she killed him etc.
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Old 2008-08-23, 03:21   Link #204
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It was Urahara's special gigai that drained Rukia's shinigami powers, not the houguyoku.
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Old 2008-08-23, 04:28   Link #205
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Originally Posted by AdamantEG View Post
"true shinigami prodegy for progressing through a six-year curriculum in only one-year"
If im not wrong thats...

Spoiler for manga? i think, but just to be safe:


i KNOW he did the six year curriculum in one year but maybe Kaien too, though i doubt it


Quote:
Originally Posted by WONDERMIKE View Post


if you ask me it's not really a typical Taicho haori he's wearing -> he's most likely from the Royal Guard, that could explain why nobody recognized his reiatsu-pattern/his last name and why we have never seen this cape-over-your-shoulder-style before

Spoiler for Manga:
could be the way ANYbody who used to be a Captain wears it, or its just how Isshin likes it.
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Old 2008-08-23, 05:23   Link #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuromancer View Post
It was Urahara's special gigai that drained Rukia's shinigami powers, not the houguyoku.
Thanks for specifying, though it doesn't really change anything to the theory.
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Old 2008-08-23, 09:05   Link #207
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Isshin is going to have a back story according to Kubo at ComicCon

Quote:
Q: Will you feature a back story about Isshin?

Tite Kubo: Yes, I will draw it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
Weird theories. Myself, I imagine that Urahara had to hide the Hougyoku inside someone, before Rukia.
From Databooks and manga it clear Urahara hid the hogyoku before leaving SS .And as he had a day to prepare in SS , I dont think he choose multiple carriers

Spoiler for Manga:


Also the gigai which was given to Rukia drain shinigami powers and make the user a human soul . The whole process is fast and it takes place in matter of months . There is no reverting back from it . Urahara's original plan was to fuse Hogyoku in Rukia's Human soul making it impossible to retrieve. The bottom line is Hogyoku would have been lost forever .Isshin has been in Karakura for atleast 15 years going by that if indeed he was given Rukia Type Gigai the, Hogyoku would have fused with his soul .Impossible for even Urahara to retrieve and transplant.

Also its safer for the Hogyoku to be with a Shinigami who is lost in sand of time (Isshin) than be to with a Rogue Shinigami who SS is eventually going to come after (Rukia) .
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Old 2008-08-23, 10:45   Link #208
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Well, Isshin knows about the Vaizards.

Quote:
Also the gigai which was given to Rukia drain shinigami powers and make the user a human soul . The whole process is fast and it takes place in matter of months . There is no reverting back from it . Urahara's original plan was to fuse Hogyoku in Rukia's Human soul making it impossible to retrieve.
? I'd be really appreciative if you could post up the pages where it's said that the Hogyoku would fuse with the human soul after any amount of time. The Hogyoku was merged in her soul I believe. Which left two techniques to take it out. One of which was devised by Urahara. If it was the case with Isshin, Urahara certainly had the means to take it out.

I know the process is fast, but whether there is no reverting back from it begs the question: Rukia recovered fairly quickly from her days carrying the Hogyoku.

Quote:
Also its safer for the Hogyoku to be with a Shinigami who is lost in sand of time (Isshin) than be to with a Rogue Shinigami who SS is eventually going to come after (Rukia) .
Huh, yes, are you... what? Weren't you trying to disprove my theory? If it makes sense, I don't see why having Isshin keep the Hogyoku would be a bad theory. The fact that he lost his wife suggests that his powers were... probably gone. He said he "failed" rescuing her, not that he wasn't there for her. It makes a degree of sense to me that Urahara would not hide the Hogyoku in Soul Society when he knew that Aizen and co. would be looking for information on why he knew about hollowfication. It would have been pretty irresponsible of Urahara to leave the Hogyoku behind, and just as irresponsible to keep it with him.

Isshin may not have been an official, or might have not become a renegade. He could have been a shinigami lost in the sands of time, as you suggest, and was therefore ideal for Urahara.
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Old 2008-08-23, 12:49   Link #209
kagato3
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
Well, Isshin knows about the Vaizards.
But he does not know all the facts. His talk with Urahara has him spouting the SS version of the events that make it sound like they were the ones who willingly did the expairiments that made them Vizzards. He also claims that both Urahara and he have been looking for thier base, which looks more then a little like Urahara's training grounds, and that he has first hand experiance with Azein's proto arancar for over decades and seems to show a knowlage of them on par with Urahara, since he is able to more or less give a full and acurate report just from a 2 min fight with GF. Urahara also seems to treat him as a equal or perhaps a someone of higher status then he himself is.

Quote:
? I'd be really appreciative if you could post up the pages where it's said that the Hogyoku would fuse with the human soul after any amount of time. The Hogyoku was merged in her soul I believe. Which left two techniques to take it out. One of which was devised by Urahara. If it was the case with Isshin, Urahara certainly had the means to take it out.

I know the process is fast, but whether there is no reverting back from it begs the question: Rukia recovered fairly quickly from her days carrying the Hogyoku.
Go read 175 page 14-16 and 176 14-20. It's pretty clearly stated that Rukia had the Hogyoku bound in her soul before she left SS and his plan was to have Rukia's soul fuse with the gigai so that the Hogyoku would be lost for all time. Again the Hogyoku had nothing to do with her powers being drained that was caused by the gigai she was in.


Quote:
Huh, yes, are you... what? Weren't you trying to disprove my theory? If it makes sense, I don't see why having Isshin keep the Hogyoku would be a bad theory. The fact that he lost his wife suggests that his powers were... probably gone. He said he "failed" rescuing her, not that he wasn't there for her. It makes a degree of sense to me that Urahara would not hide the Hogyoku in Soul Society when he knew that Aizen and co. would be looking for information on why he knew about hollowfication. It would have been pretty irresponsible of Urahara to leave the Hogyoku behind, and just as irresponsible to keep it with him.

Isshin may not have been an official, or might have not become a renegade. He could have been a shinigami lost in the sands of time, as you suggest, and was therefore ideal for Urahara.
If it was in Isshin as your theory states then there is no reason to move it to Rukia Isshin seems to be an unkown to SS and is all ready liveing as a human. All moveing it to Rukia would do is give Azein a huge sign saying here I am.
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Old 2008-08-23, 12:59   Link #210
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*rambling mode on*

I'm gonna guess Isshin was General of division 0 and is therefore ridiculously powerful, if not like commander or something who knows, it probably doesn't even rank the same as gotei 13, seeing as you have to be (or probably) captain in gotei 13 probably before you even get considered to be promoted to royal guard it would seem. (I would say captain division 0 but seeing as how its a promotion there has to something above captain, commander / general or something)

Just throwing this out there for the hellovit. What if that captain Hikifune or whomever got promoted to division 0 was Ichigo's mom? I dunno, it always bugged me that Masaki was just a mere human and just died like that...seeing as how Isshin had a dirty secret, it wouldn't surprise me that Masaki did / does too.


She supposidly made everyone around her happy and imo I think it kind of explains why Hiyori didn't accept Urahara early on. I mean there could be lots of reasons and Hikifune isnt actually important at all other than being grounds to setup Urahara's coming-to-be captain, but everything is connected some how, I think.


*rambling off*
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Old 2008-08-23, 13:46   Link #211
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
Well, Isshin knows about the Vaizards.
The Hogyoku was transferred into Rukia when Urahara was exiled from SS . That event take place 100 years before Bleach timeline .Hogyoku was [B]not[/BE] placed inside Rukia in the Human World .

Quote:
DATABOOK

Quote:
Quote:
http://i37.tinypic.com/mbolmr.jpg

後に登場する、死神とホロウの境界を瞬時に無くし死神やホロウの限界を崩す危険な部室。地上へ とやってきたルキアの体内には、このときすでに宝玉が隠されていたのだった
MelodyMix: TOPICS: Hougyoku – bottom bit of the page

(The first part only explains what a Hougyoku is @_@). The Hougyoku was already hid inside Rukia’s body when she came to the human world.
Quote:
Quote:
http://i36.tinypic.com/suzyg2.jpg

すべては彼の掌の上に

死神の限界を破らんとする努力。その唯一の方法とされるのが“死神のホロウ化”だ。愛染を含め 多くの物が実 験を重ねたが、成功に至った者は唯一、浦原喜介のみ。浦原は死神とホロウの境界を消す“宝玉” を作りだすが 、その危険性を悟り存在自体を隠蔽した。選ばれし隠し場所は朽木ルキアの魂魄。歳月が経ち、任務だ現世は降 り たルキアは、一護に死神の力を奪われる。これを機に浦原は、特性義骸に霊力 拡散作用だルキア快復を阻害。時と共に霊力を奪われてルキアが人間ぬなってしまえば宝玉は完全 に隠されるは ずだった。
MelodyMix: But what it basically says is, because the Hougyoku was a dangerous substance Kisuke decided to hide it somewhere, and that somewhere was in Rukia’s soul. And after a few years when Rukia came to the human world and gave Ichigo her power Kisuke took that opportunity to destroy the Hougyoku for good by giving Rukia a “special gigai” and turning her into a human. Because the Hougyoku was hid inside Rukia’s soul, as her Shinigami powers disappeared at the same time the Hougyoku will disappear as well, turning her into a human.

Nothing written about when Kisuke hid the Hougyoku inside Rukia or why he chose her. But VIBEs just proved the Hougyoku was inside Rukia before she met Ichigo and gave her power to him.
I am going to assume you have not read the pendulum Arc .For Isshin to be the carrier of Hogyoku before Rukia he had to present in SS during Pendulum Arc .

Spoiler for MANGA:
.



Quote:
? I'd be really appreciative if you could post up the pages where it's said that the Hogyoku would fuse with the human soul after any amount of time. The Hogyoku was merged in her soul I believe. Which left two techniques to take it out. One of which was devised by Urahara. If it was the case with Isshin, Urahara certainly had the means to take it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Go read 175 page 14-16 and 176 14-20. It's pretty clearly stated that Rukia had the Hogyoku bound in her soul before she left SS and his plan was to have Rukia's soul fuse with the gigai so that the Hogyoku would be lost for all time. Again the Hogyoku had nothing to do with her powers being drained that was caused by the gigai she was in.

Quote:
I know the process is fast, but whether there is no reverting back from it begs the question: Rukia recovered fairly quickly from her days carrying the Hogyoku.
You are not clear about one thing HOGYOKU DOES NOT MAKE A SHINIGAMI LOSE HIS/HER POWERS . The gigai which Urahara gave Rukia does .

If Rukia had stayed any longer in that Gigai her soul would have turned human and then would have completely fused withe Hogyoku thanks to the Gigai . Then even with the Sokyoku or the by Urahara's method Aizen wouldnt have been able to separate Hogyoku from Rukia's soul .
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Old 2008-08-24, 10:30   Link #212
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In the 'turn back to pendulum' chapter, Ukitake and Shunsui talk about how they're going through captains pretty quickly, and says the squad 3's captain retired, and squad 12's captain was promoted.

Could Isshin be the retired captain? Perhaps he went off into the real world, fell in love, became a human so hollows nor soul reapers could track his spiritual presence, and then because of that lost his wife?

Maybe he met Urahaha when he came to the real world with Tessai and the Vizards?

Its a stretch, but a possibility, eh?
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Old 2008-08-24, 14:12   Link #213
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I think he might be like a shiba and it isn't uncommon for the dudes to marry into a womans family so i totally think that Ichigo and Kaien are cousins cuz i bet Isshin is Kaiens bro
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Old 2008-08-24, 14:20   Link #214
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Originally Posted by IrishBleachFreak View Post
I think he might be like a shiba and it isn't uncommon for the dudes to marry into a womans family so i totally think that Ichigo and Kaien are cousins cuz i bet Isshin is Kaiens bro
That's what I think...

Isshin bears a remarkable resemblance to Ganju. Ichigo looks like both Kaien and Kukkaku. I think he is from the Shiba Clan. I think he'd already left SS before the Pendulum Arc. I believe Urahara met him when he got to the living world.
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Old 2008-08-24, 14:21   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Hav0kkx View Post
Spoiler for manga:
Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2008-08-26, 12:46   Link #216
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We know for one thing, that also Shinji doesn't know Isshin, so if Isshin was a captain, it was way back.
(When Shinji tries to persuade Ichigo to join the Vaizard, Isshin appeared to fight Grand Fisher. Shinji makes a surprised face when sensing Isshins reiatsu because of its strength, but he also states, that he doesn't recognize "that Shinigami's reiatsu").
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:01   Link #217
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Originally Posted by ^_Usagi_^ View Post
I’m sorry if something like this already exists, but checking through all the threads is crazy. + I'm horrible at setting spoilers so I just put em on almost everything. (please correct me if I'm wrong on anything below)

Isshin Kurosaki is a huge confusion to me. Who is he “really”?

What we know:
Spoiler:


Weird part:
Spoiler:


(my) Conclusion:
Spoiler:

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

(my) WEIRD THEORY (that I don’t really believe in, but still give it slight chance)
Spoiler:
your weird theory might be right. but i thought of somethin. . . . lets say that when you die in the shinigami realm you are born in the human world. yea this has nothing to do with isshin but think about it
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:05   Link #218
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Originally Posted by Kurohitsugi View Post
We know for one thing, that also Shinji doesn't know Isshin, so if Isshin was a captain, it was way back.
(When Shinji tries to persuade Ichigo to join the Vaizard, Isshin appeared to fight Grand Fisher. Shinji makes a surprised face when sensing Isshins reiatsu because of its strength, but he also states, that he doesn't recognize "that Shinigami's reiatsu").
shinji may have been before him also . . . he doesn't have to be "young" i don't remember if they said how long ago shinji and the others turned into vizards but shinji could be older then we think
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Old 2008-08-29, 20:22   Link #219
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Originally Posted by nozomi vamp View Post
shinji may have been before him also . . . he doesn't have to be "young" i don't remember if they said how long ago shinji and the others turned into vizards but shinji could be older then we think
Spoiler for semi spoiler but not realy:

what we know for sure
1) he is a captian class shinigami
2) Shinji could not ID him by his powers
3) Urahara treats him with a good deal of respect
4) he has a long history of dealing with the arankaru going back decades
5) He doesn't seem to know the truth about the vizzards but has been looking for them.
6) Rukia is unable to ID him.
Spoiler for may containe spoilers:


less soild facts
7) Isshin and his children look like many members of the Shiba Clan
8) Urahara implies he is the one that sealed Isshin's powers and is worried he would be blamed if Isshin was weaker for doing it.
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Old 2008-08-30, 19:57   Link #220
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