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Old 2008-08-30, 17:41   Link #101
Falkor
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Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Because of a certain "someone", I checked the manga (all the first 12 chapters) and... honestly, I would say it was both a waste of time and a gain of time (as it will prevent me to lose my sanity in the upcoming anime release).

My biggest gripes with Toradora plot are basically the whole structure and premises.
In all honesty, the author is trying too hard in the "sweet-sour" component of the tsundere archtype, to the point the "dere" side is a mere scam, not even doing the "vaseline" effect for all the black and annoying parts of the horrible being named Taiga.
I wouldn’t say that the whole premise surrounds Taiga’s mood swings—it is not. As I said before, Toradora is a romantic comedy in its entirety, focusing in the relationship between Taiga and Ryuji and how it unfolds—not necessarily as romance per se (I will explain this point later on). This has been hinted all throughout the manga from the very first chapter with Taiga’s love letter, and further reached a climax in chapters 7-11 (which hopefully I will elaborate at a later date).

As far as Taiga concerns, well, it’s very subjective whether one finds her mood swings believable, appealing, or whatnot. But as for me, she is probably the most likeable out of all her cousins (i.e. Shana, Nagi, and Louise). The reason being is how “well defined” are her “tsun” and “dere” side; and by this I mean that there’s a “clear” motive for the actions leading into her fear-inducing behavior. Acting tough, so nobody would ever discover that she is actually weak and defenseless—hurting herself while walking, being unable to take care of herself, or simply defeated by her own doubts and embarrassment when it comes to the person she loves—and that’s the intrinsic dere side she wants to hide from the outside world by “doing the opposite.”


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Though I'm not exactly fond of bitching a series or so, TD fails in "entertainment" department in my case (I insist it is only my opinion), because the author generate such situations that it challenging my suspension of disbelief. Basically, Ryuji is just-too-bloody-nice-that-it-is-laughable. He isn't bad as a character per se, however, the treatment he receives from Taiga is just borderline inhuman (well, she uses him as a dog after all) and his somehow "cannot let her alone" attitude is so forced that it broke my suspension of disbelief.
Well, there are many reasons supporting Ryuji’s bloody-nice behavior, but I don’t think it is to the point of making him laughable—it’s quite understandable when you think about it, though. One thing is that Ryuji is the only person Taiga can depend on, even though Minorin seems to be her closest friend—and he knows about this, and probably more… that’s why he feels somewhat compelled to take care of her, regardless of the “playful belittlement.” The second thing is his own background, especially everything concerning his family. Since his father is not present at home, he is the one taking care of his drunk/airhead mother, and not the other way around. He is also the one doing the cooking and cleaning because his mother is unable to do so. His great sense of responsibility came about due to his own upbringing, and it’s not a surprise that he wants to take care of the “useless” Taiga the same way he has been doing with his mother. And at last, the most important detail is what Taiga and Ryuji both share in common—the feeling of being misunderstood. I think this is the main reason why Ryuji can put up with Taiga’s selfish behavior. He perfectly knows that feeling because he has experienced it himself with his “sharp eyes.” When Taiga, after the most recent event of the manga, was devastated by “a little” misunderstanding, he was the first person to recognize what was going with her—understanding her, and even been able to sympathize because of the common bond. (I’m going to elaborate more on this as time goes on). It’s not as forced as you believe it is when really, it's not outside of his character.

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If you combine this with Taiga, the biggest chore character available, it doesn't make TD very bright. I will admit some situations were kinda a guilty pleasure with all the commotion and "fun", but it is soon darkened with pitch black ink when Taiga opens her filthy trap dustshoot which serves as her mouth.
If I have to comment about her character, she is simply the incarnation of selfishness and doesn't have any kind of clue about how it is to interact with her fellow classmates.
Try watching visual novel adaptations besides Key/Kyoani, or even Dragounaut for all intents and purposes, and you will see that there exist characters that go beyond the meaning of chore.

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This is really a big problem for TD premises, as it actually should make the readers rooting for a romance between Taiga and Ryuji. However, unlike usual clumsy male lead that doesn't deserve the "harem" at his disposal, it is the other way around: no matter what Taiga does, she really doesn't deserve Ryuji, period. And if she somehow "acts" nice, she is going backwards in a horrible bossy attitude the very next moment costing her at least the double of points she won with her "false dere side" (see especially chapter 11, page 24).
You are wrong here, as Toradora does not intend to make Taiga and Ryuji a couple on romantic grounds—not as far as the manga goes. From the first day, it’s made perfectly clear that Ryuji has a crush on Minorin, while Taiga on Kitamura—and this has been the premise from which he and she have come together for “all interests concerned.” It wouldn’t make sense to suddenly develop feelings for the other when neither party is interested nor seems to be at this point. And therefore, why should I root for this to happen?

Taiga is not interested in Ryuji; she even dismisses his servitude when the misunderstandings went out of control (see chapter 8 or 9). Her dere side, so far, contrary to her cousins, serve for the purpose of showing that she is weak, lonely, and powerless—and not simply because she wants to win points with the audience.

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The story is kinda classic, and doesn't have much to be blamed. But honestly, Taiga herself is just pushing so many wrong buttons that it is difficult to take that story enjoyable, even if not at the latest degree. This is as silly as in ZNT, just that you exchange the explosions from louise's void magic with raw violence and crude language.
Comparing this to Zero no Tsukaima is silly in itself (not an ill intended comment, though) and completely unfair. Other than the multiple similarities between Taiga and Louise, there are no other grounds of comparison. And it wouldn’t make things any better if you are comparing two different mediums (assuming that you are referring to the Zero no Tsukaima anime) when Toradora has not even aired yet.

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At least, it sure has the potential to please tsundere lover, I won't question that.
My apologies for the blunt and brutal rant, I assume many people enjoy this plot, which is normal. that said, this is a mere token of opinion here, as a contrast I should say.
It was fun replying to your rant.
Never hold back if you have something inside of your chest.
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Old 2008-08-30, 18:04   Link #102
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Waven View Post
Interesting opinion, i respect that it is just that just wonder what your expectancy was before starting to read since you kinda seemed to be forced to do so. Well nevermind it's probably too hard to say from ones own objective point of view now.
Actually, it was a "private" joke with the person who recognized themselves pretty well. Though, I must admit that in various instance, I wanted to drop the series as it was really challenging my nerves. That said, I didn't read "against my own will", so it wasn't really that a "chore" that I make it sound to be. I guess I didn't cool my head down enough to give a proper insight.
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All you observed about Taiga is absolutely right but i never had the feeling she was more annoying than any other tsundere type character that is more 'tsun' than 'dere' (as of now taiga definitely is). For me her rare 'dere' are a plus since it makes them special. Also don't miss out that we almost never get to know her thoughts opposed to alot of other tsunderes of other series where it's mostly pretty clear the character is actually caring by 'reading' what they actually think and feel compared to what they say or how they act. Anyway i'm not going to try to convince you, the opposite, I think your opinion is constructive and refreshing that's pretty rare for a post that is in contradiction to the common thinking in the series' thread.
That is indeed the usual "pattern" in the tsundere archtype. The problem "for me" actually isn't the fact taiga is a tsundere. But rather how her "tsun" is executed.
In the vast majority of the archtype, tsundere are of course dishonest and helpless with the other character. The problem with Taiga is the "scale" of such unability to interact well, which is even worse when the said character is a complete stranger.
In such case, the problem with her character (in my case, of course) is that Taiga is simply not viewing her surrounding "properly" and only has her objective in mind. In a sense, it gives her some charm of "honesty" as she isn't like the usual "coward" tsundere.
But as a trade off, she is really not acting "decently" with the person who is hardly responsible for her predicament. I know it is difficult for such kind of character to realize and admit their fault, but using others as sand bag and blame object isn't exactly giving much lovely points in my books.

That is in the end, rather a reaction with my taste. Fortunately, I had to expect a tsundere, otherwise, it would have given up on this series far sooner if not "prepared"

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Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
As far as Taiga concerns, well, it’s very subjective whether one finds her mood swings believable, appealing, or whatnot. But as for me, she is probably the most likeable out of all her cousins (i.e. Shana, Nagi, and Louise). The reason being is how “well defined” are her “tsun” and “dere” side; and by this I mean that there’s a “clear” motive for the actions leading into her fear-inducing behavior. Acting tough, so nobody would ever discover that she is actually weak and defenseless—hurting herself while walking, being unable to take care of herself, or simply defeated by her own doubts and embarrassment when it comes to the person she loves—and that’s the intrinsic dere side she wants to hide from the outside world by “doing the opposite.”
While the boundaries between her "tsun" and "dere" are clear. The problem is how the "tsun" is which is... not exactly what anyone would like to bear all the time (until they are atrociously maso).
The problem I see here is the "reason" for the tsun and how the "compensation" the dere offer is vastly inferior to the tsun.
Of course, I don't expect characters being "balanced", especially for the tsundere archtype, but it is not exactly the presence of dere that can justify the tsun itself.
In the end, not only the dere fails to justify the tsun, but the tsun itself has quite huge proportions, which is difficult to understand even with her background story explained. I can understand that life can be a crappy and whatnot, but I have difficult time to give credit to a character that is unable to realize their wrong doing and/or when they do, but just don't do anything against it. (as shown, Taiga realizes how she is trampling on Ryuji. However, she simply does NOT correct herself, not even a simple minimum. This example has its spike on chapter 11, page 24).
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When Taiga, after the most recent event of the manga, was devastated by “a little” misunderstanding, he was the first person to recognize what was going with her—understanding her, and even been able to sympathize because of the common bond. (I’m going to elaborate more on this as time goes on). It’s not as forced as you believe it is when really, it's not outside of his character.
The problem is not actually how Ryuji was able to cope all the mess, but rather how the author seems to force a almighty "understanding" from him. He is dependable and sharp, but that doesn't mean it should automatically give him the patience of a saint, especially when the person you gladly offer your help to just doesn't see you as equal and abuse over and over.
This is where the problem lies: as much as I can see "too good to be true" female characters (such like Haruka from Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu), Ryuji is the straight male equivalent without being fluffy, though the situations are definitely beyond the scope of his ability to cope any harsh blow.

Ryuji often complained about Taiga. His relationship with her is actually a huge hinderance for his conquest for Minori. And finally, he doesn't have a clear token of appreciation from taiga. Yet, he is able to follow her as a dog?
I understand that a benevolent character can help someone even unrelated/in a very difficult situation without much a reason (after all, helping others "shouldn't" require ulterior motives). However, in Ryuji's case, helping Taiga is hardly as something he would do willingly: he was threatened to death and, despite he somehow manage to accept and swear aid to Taiga, the latter seize the opportunity and make him as her "useless dog" slave. As result, one should question how the hell someone can stay "okay" when you are abused, seen as a pet, and even insulted/considered as useless.
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Try watching visual novel adaptations besides Key/Kyoani, or even Dragounaut for all intents and purposes, and you will see that there exist characters that go beyond the meaning of chore.
I know a lot of characters being quite the drama queen etc in many visual novels adaptations. Still, I rarely saw a "protagonist" going as much as going bossy selfish with the absence of respect.
That line was perhaps used without much comparison, but I really believe that it is not exactly a standard that "protagonist" are able to break. You can obviously find worse in the large anime/manga universe, but... there is some limits in the "black light portrayal" you can give to a lead protagonist character.
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You are wrong here, as Toradora does not intend to make Taiga and Ryuji a couple on romantic grounds—not as far as the manga goes. From the first day, it’s made perfectly clear that Ryuji has a crush on Minorin, while Taiga on Kitamura—and this has been the premise from which he and she have come together for “all interests concerned.” It wouldn’t make sense to suddenly develop feelings for the other when neither party is interested nor seems to be at this point. And therefore, why should I root for this to happen?
Since when a "starting crush" is a guarantee the characters will stick with that character of their choice? This is basically the usual triangle setup: you have 1 character helping another, but in the end, the supporter carries feelings and the supported protagonist have hard time to choose etc.

Obviously, Toradora isn't a triangle romance at all. However, there is absolutely no reason to rule out a possible relationship between Taiga and Ryuji.
Taiga's various dere reactions and her confession towards Kitamura are huge clues that Ryuji is not a "mere guy" for her. Why would she loses her "defense" when Ryuji wanted to stay by her side?
Honestly, I doubt how their mutual crush can be a sealed "fate".
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Taiga is not interested in Ryuji; she even dismisses his servitude when the misunderstandings went out of control (see chapter 8 or 9). Her dere side, so far, contrary to her cousins, serve for the purpose of showing that she is weak, lonely, and powerless—and not simply because she wants to win points with the audience.
Dismissing his servitude doesn't mean anything. At worst, it can show that she "realizes" that she is treating Ryuji like a rag, and this isn't exactly the best way to deal with someone close to you.
Of course, I didn't say that all the dere are selfdom shown to "counter balance" Taiga. But like I said, the tsun itself is the issue here. And being "weak" whatsoever does NOT give you the right to treat other people like rag, especially if they are helping you in good faith.

In short, Taiga scored with dominant black negative points with me as the proportions and "justification" of her tsun are difficult to feel empathy with. I don't expect a clear pattern of reactions, but Taiga digged her own grave when her tsun side is hardly helping her weak side. The rough facade she is using with Ryuji is hardly a proof of using a guise.
The very moment she implied she will do anything to counter Ryuji's chance to hook with Minori until she has her own happiness is beyond astonishment. And her weak side is not explaining such selfishness in detriment of other people "will" and aspirations.

I may take her bitch side too seriously and that in the end, TD should be taken "lightly" (considering its sheer amount of improbably situation and slapstick comedy). However, it does not lessen the "wrong" of a character, just because the scope of a series/genre can allow such extremes.
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Comparing this to Zero no Tsukaima is silly in itself (not an ill intended comment, though) and completely unfair. Other than the multiple similarities between Taiga and Louise, there are no other grounds of comparison. And it wouldn’t make things any better if you are comparing two different mediums (assuming that you are referring to the Zero no Tsukaima anime) when Toradora has not even aired yet.
The comparison takes grounds only with 2 characters that are extremely similar. The thing is: I didn't like the manga because of the said character. Hence, if the anime is somewhat similar a certain minimum (which should be), it would, by implication, deal the very same issues for me to actually enjoy the anime media.
Of course, things can change if they change the scope and tone down things, but actually, most manga can be used a possible "preview" of what you can expect from an anime series, until they completely go on the left field in their adaptation.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-08-30 at 18:38.
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Old 2008-08-30, 23:13   Link #103
MooMooFarm
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All I know is they need to have some silly delinquents involved and have the Toradora combo save the day by complete fluke. I mean, it's frigging toradora, it's no fun if you don't abuse it.
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Old 2008-08-30, 23:41   Link #104
Haesslich
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One thing to note - the 'false dere' in Chapter 11 that gets quoted is not exactly 'false dere' - or I wouldn't call it that; that's what Ami's been doing in volume 2 when she's putting on her 'good girl face' for everyone, including Kitamura. I thought that was more to show she was enjoying the situation, and was just a bit happy that Ryuji wanted to continue to keep her company even after she tried to tell him to go away. Basically this meant she was no longer completely alone (which was a problem/phobia of hers since early childhood) and her extra-tsun was how she tried to cover her feelings of inferiority and loneliness by acting in a way which prevented her from getting into embarassing situations.

Or at least, this is what Minorin believes, along with Ryuji. She's certainly less psychotic and yandere-like than someone like, say... Louise, who immediately tries to kill Saito the moment he sees her in the vicinity of another girl. Taiga mostly tries to beat Ryuji down some, although she backs off if things are getting too serious (unless her embarassment overrides her common sense).

Now, I can't speak for the anime - the character designs (and the way they resemble Ryoko from Haruhi and Chiaki from Minami-ke) alone scare me into thinking J.C. Staff will screw up the anime as badly as they did ZnT in its translation from novel to anime format. For some reason, I'm imagining them using the familiar character designs as a way to hook accidental viewers who think they're watching Haruhi or Minami-ke and hoping they stay for the rest of the show...
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Old 2008-08-31, 12:39   Link #105
Falkor
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
While the boundaries between her "tsun" and "dere" are clear. The problem is how the "tsun" is which is... not exactly what anyone would like to bear all the time (until they are atrociously maso).
The problem I see here is the "reason" for the tsun and how the "compensation" the dere offer is vastly inferior to the tsun.
Of course, I don't expect characters being "balanced", especially for the tsundere archtype, but it is not exactly the presence of dere that can justify the tsun itself.
In the end, not only the dere fails to justify the tsun, but the tsun itself has quite huge proportions, which is difficult to understand even with her background story explained. I can understand that life can be a crappy and whatnot, but I have difficult time to give credit to a character that is unable to realize their wrong doing and/or when they do, but just don't do anything against it. (as shown, Taiga realizes how she is trampling on Ryuji. However, she simply does NOT correct herself, not even a simple minimum. This example has its spike on chapter 11, page 24).
I’m certainly not getting a good grasp of the argument here.

If this is sort of a continuation of the “dere should offset tsun” argument of your last post, there’s nothing I can do…

I have no doubts about your dislike for Taiga’s tsun side, though I want to point out something you probably missed. She does correct herself to some extent, but it’s very subtle and I’m not sure whether the manga has already explained the details, because it’s part of Ryuji’s realization.

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The problem is not actually how Ryuji was able to cope all the mess, but rather how the author seems to force a almighty "understanding" from him. He is dependable and sharp, but that doesn't mean it should automatically give him the patience of a saint, especially when the person you gladly offer your help to just doesn't see you as equal and abuse over and over.
As I explained yesterday, Ryuji understands Taiga’s behavior and somewhat puts up with her because one, his character/personality allows him to do so; and two, because they are withstanding each other on equal grounds—even though she might say a different thing. And this is shown when he replies back on chapter 12 at that restaurant for example, or with the very fact that Taiga can only depend on Ryuji.

If that was not clear enough, let’s see how Ryuji’s and Taiga’s relationship stands. They are truly friends in the complete sense of the word. Taiga, as Kitamura pointed out, has been showing more expressions ever since she has been hanging out with Ryuji—in other words, only showing her tsun side around him. A way to express herself with somebody she knows wouldn’t mind, whereas the rest basically receives the cold shoulder. He is very special to her, but that does not necessarily mean that she would go as far as being nice—it’s not part of her character. Ryuji sees her as a friend as well, though not in the same way as Taiga. If there was no friendship in-between, he wouldn’t go as far as trying to help her in her romantic interests—she is helpless after all.

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This is where the problem lies: as much as I can see "too good to be true" female characters (such like Haruka from Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu), Ryuji is the straight male equivalent without being fluffy, though the situations are definitely beyond the scope of his ability to cope any harsh blow.
Well, I don’t really see him suffering from fatal wounds, nor is he screaming in desperation, nor is he begging for his life. He even seems somewhat glad to help her… and though not truly annoyed when she belittles him. A good example of this is would be the time he took Taiga to the infirmary out of his own volition.

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Ryuji often complained about Taiga. His relationship with her is actually a huge hinderance for his conquest for Minori.
Well, I think the fact Ryuji befriended Taiga has given Minorin a new impression on him, which would have not otherwise happened. A hindrance, probably; but that doesn’t mean that chances for Minorin and Ryuji to move along cannot occur.

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And finally, he doesn't have a clear token of appreciation from taiga. Yet, he is able to follow her as a dog?
Do you really think she means what she says? She is a “tsundere” after all. Her tokens of appreciation were very subtle in the novel, and they are even more subtle in the manga. For example, why did she mention Ryuji at the confession? There is more than one way to interpret this situation, but it comes to mind that she wanted to recognize the support of the person who had always stood next to her—the same one who brought her words out.

On the other hand, I think Ryuji has already received a “thank you” from her, even if he himself did not quite realize it. By dismissing him and/or trying to fix the misunderstandings on her own.

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I understand that a benevolent character can help someone even unrelated/in a very difficult situation without much a reason (after all, helping others "shouldn't" require ulterior motives). However, in Ryuji's case, helping Taiga is hardly as something he would do willingly: he was threatened to death and, despite he somehow manage to accept and swear aid to Taiga, the latter seize the opportunity and make him as her "useless dog" slave. As result, one should question how the hell someone can stay "okay" when you are abused, seen as a pet, and even insulted/considered as useless.
There’s little doubt that Taiga “playfully” sees Ryuji as her “slave,” but have you considered why is he “putting up” with it or why he decides to stay by her side? I think Ryuji knows Taiga more than you believe he does, especially the fact that she is no tough girl. If somebody of such “true nature” like Taiga decides to belittle him, is that patience of his the object shaking here? He probably doesn’t really care of said belittlement because it’s not ill intended in the first place—or it hasn’t gone to the point of affecting him in the bare minimum. And Ryuji happens to be very understanding due to his own upbringing, and especially when it comes to Taiga—who is basically hopeless trying to take care of herself.

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I know a lot of characters being quite the drama queen etc in many visual novels adaptations. Still, I rarely saw a "protagonist" going as much as going bossy selfish with the absence of respect.
That line was perhaps used without much comparison, but I really believe that it is not exactly a standard that "protagonist" are able to break. You can obviously find worse in the large anime/manga universe, but... there is some limits in the "black light portrayal" you can give to a lead protagonist character.
Oh geez, I was making one of those random comments…

But before reading you post, I used to believe that Taiga was a lighter, yet more likeable version of Louise, but I guess you are finding Taiga even more detestable than Louise—for which, I cannot convince you otherwise.

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Since when a "starting crush" is a guarantee the characters will stick with that character of their choice? This is basically the usual triangle setup: you have 1 character helping another, but in the end, the supporter carries feelings and the supported protagonist have hard time to choose etc.
I was somewhat aware of that setup, but the conditions for that to happen were not met, not quite as yet—that was the point of my post. From this perspective, I was questioning whether the premise did circle around Taiga’s and Ryuji’s supposedly romantic aspects—for which I believe it did not, even at that confession scene. Given all the events that happened in the manga so far, it was obvious that Toradora was a romantic comedy, but it had nothing to do (for now) with a romance between Taiga and Ryuji. However, the thing that really irked me was your assumption that the readers should be rooting for them, when that should not be the case as Ryuji and Taiga have no romantic interest for the other. Should the spark develop between the two, things might change in Toradora.

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Obviously, Toradora isn't a triangle romance at all. However, there is absolutely no reason to rule out a possible relationship between Taiga and Ryuji.
Taiga's various dere reactions and her confession towards Kitamura are huge clues that Ryuji is not a "mere guy" for her. Why would she loses her "defense" when Ryuji wanted to stay by her side?
Honestly, I doubt how their mutual crush can be a sealed "fate".
Well, Ryuji is not a “mere guy,” he is basically “his only family.” (something I might elaborate later on)

Because somebody really wants to stay by her side (she is a lonely girl who actually lives alone), put up with that character of hers, be belittled and still say that they are standing on the same ground—as tiger and dragon. Who wouldn’t be touched by an idiot like him?

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Dismissing his servitude doesn't mean anything. At worst, it can show that she "realizes" that she is treating Ryuji like a rag, and this isn't exactly the best way to deal with someone close to you.
Well, it does mean something for me; it was sort of a turning point for the story as far as 12 chapters of the manga concern. It seemed like a thank you, but I felt an implied apology for all the trouble caused. And this was further supported by the next action she took: making really sure that nobody in class misunderstands them ever again.

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Of course, I didn't say that all the dere are selfdom shown to "counter balance" Taiga. But like I said, the tsun itself is the issue here. And being "weak" whatsoever does NOT give you the right to treat other people like rag, especially if they are helping you in good faith.
Well, Taiga’s behavior does not go beyond the “playful belittlement” compared to say Louise sadomasochist’s tendencies. And yes, a person does not have the right to treat others like rag, but I think a relationship where one engages in “playful belittlements” with a friend is unique and especial in itself. (I selfdom do this with my closest friends)

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The very moment she implied she will do anything to counter Ryuji's chance to hook with Minori until she has her own happiness is beyond astonishment. And her weak side is not explaining such selfishness in detriment of other people "will" and aspirations.
Well, I certainly got the selfish part of Taiga’s character. Why she doesn’t want others to be happy is probably because she herself is not entirely happy—living alone, being such a klutz, having his very life depend on a guy (I might elaborate on this later on). And within the parameters of Taiga’s behavior, it’s not strange that she wants to be happy before Ryuji.

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I may take her bitch side too seriously and that in the end, TD should be taken "lightly" (considering its sheer amount of improbably situation and slapstick comedy). However, it does not lessen the "wrong" of a character, just because the scope of a series/genre can allow such extremes.
Actually, Toradora has some layers of depth that can make for an interesting analysis if somebody is up to the task (there was a small hint of this in chapters 7-11).

At least she is not writing names on a death note. Wait, wrong series/genre.

There’s nothing really wrong with Taiga’s character as far as my experience with the manga goes and regardless of your posts claiming otherwise. She might do things wrong, but it’s an intrinsic part of her character. Would Toradora be the same if we replace Taiga for a much perfect character that can suit everybody’s preferences? Such character does not exist, but within a certain criteria, I believe Taiga is good enough with her flaws and her selfish behavior.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
This is as silly as in ZNT, just that you exchange the explosions from louise's void magic with raw violence and crude language.
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Originally Posted by Falkor
Comparing this to Zero no Tsukaima is silly in itself (not an ill intended comment, though) and completely unfair. Other than the multiple similarities between Taiga and Louise, there are no other grounds of comparison. And it wouldn’t make things any better if you are comparing two different mediums (assuming that you are referring to the Zero no Tsukaima anime) when Toradora has not even aired yet.
The point I was trying to make, if I was not clear enough, is that it’s not possible to compare two series’ qualities/strengths/weaknesses based on the similarities hold by the main characters—in this case, Taiga and Louise—and still believe that one of them was judged in the right terms. And to spice things more, I’m not even sure if such comparison is suitable when one is anime (assuming again, that this was your first encounter with the Zero no Tsukaima franchise) and the other is in its manga form (Toradora).


As a final note, I’m not completely disagreeing with you, as I can understand why you are not finding this series easy to “digest.” I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga and Ryuji are likeable, only that they are not out-of-character by elaborating on some reasons you may or may not find agreeable.

Anyway, I want to ask you something concerning this ordeal, why would Taiga need to act nice? Why would people need to act nice when it’s not part of their character? As far as your argument goes, I only saw an opinion on why you are not coming to believe either Taiga’s or Ryuji’s character/personality, for which I’m trying to respond with an opinion as well.


@Haesslich

Let's avoid mentioning details from the novel (not even in spoiler tags); this is the manga thread after all.
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Old 2008-08-31, 12:47   Link #106
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Oh my damn.... sorry to be that guy, but TLDR. :P
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Old 2008-08-31, 14:13   Link #107
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
I’m certainly not getting a good grasp of the argument here.

If this is sort of a continuation of the “dere should offset tsun” argument of your last post, there’s nothing I can do…

I have no doubts about your dislike for Taiga’s tsun side, though I want to point out something you probably missed. She does correct herself to some extent, but it’s very subtle and I’m not sure whether the manga has already explained the details, because it’s part of Ryuji’s realization.
The actual point is, as "last resort", if we have to see a balance in the "sweet-sour" side, it is completely off, but as mentioned, it wouldn't be exactly a good point. That said, the main issue was the tsun alone which was actually difficult to swallow. As far as I could see, yes, she actually had development (unlike louise who realize things but never does on the same way), but she is going backwards in many instances (hence the mention of chap11, page 24).
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As I explained yesterday, Ryuji understands Taiga’s behavior and somewhat puts up with her because one, his character/personality allows him to do so; and two, because they are withstanding each other on equal grounds—even though she might say a different thing. And this is shown when he replies back on chapter 12 at that restaurant for example, or with the very fact that Taiga can only depend on Ryuji.
I will give you a point about this. However, the problem wasn't exactly that "he understands her", the problem is how he can withstand. This is where I actually mentioned the "patience of saint". If he didn't understand her, it wouldn't be patience, it would be absolute masochism or foolishness. That's why I gived credits for him, but not the author.
and no, they are NOT in equal grounds. Ryuji is quite honest and always tell things that might go against him. OTOH, Taiga does NOT returning the favors at all. Her "understanding" and "weak" phases are absolutely not representative of equal grounds considering how she is in tsun 90% of the time, which means: abuse.
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If that was not clear enough, let’s see how Ryuji’s and Taiga’s relationship stands. They are truly friends in the complete sense of the word. Taiga, as Kitamura pointed out, has been showing more expressions ever since she has been hanging out with Ryuji—in other words, only showing her tsun side around him. A way to express herself with somebody she knows wouldn’t mind, whereas the rest basically receives the cold shoulder. He is very special to her, but that does not necessarily mean that she would go as far as being nice—it’s not part of her character. Ryuji sees her as a friend as well, though not in the same way as Taiga. If there was no friendship in-between, he wouldn’t go as far as trying to help her in her romantic interests—she is helpless after all.
You are discarding what Taiga is so flustered about with her confession to kitamura. She was able to define clearly her feelings for Kitamura, yet, she is unable to pin point Ryuji's in her "ranking". Honestly, while it isn't clear, I certainly doubt their relationship will remain platonic at this rate.
Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self. However, she "manages" to be completely dazed at her curcial part of her confession despite she could obviously ignore completely Ryuji's topic during that. Worse, she is even sidetracking her love demonstration with her relationship/feelings for Ryuji. I would not call that "normal friendship".
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Well, I don’t really see him suffering from fatal wounds, nor is he screaming in desperation, nor is he begging for his life. He even seems somewhat glad to help her… and though not truly annoyed when she belittles him. A good example of this is would be the time he took Taiga to the infirmary out of his own volition.
You are taking my words way too much on the first degree. You don't need to beg for mercy or such to prove there is a problem. Ryuji got his life literally invaded by taiga, and he has no means nor the character to repell her. Of course, considering his character background, it would be clearly out of character if he kicks her out. However, I hardly believe Ryuji is liking the rough treatment.
And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant.
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Well, I think the fact Ryuji befriended Taiga has given Minorin a new impression on him, which would have not otherwise happened. A hindrance, probably; but that doesn’t mean that chances for Minorin and Ryuji to move along cannot occur.
I never said it would be never happen. However, he has nothing to gain here. of course, like I said before, he is the type of character that doesn't need reason to help someone. That said, the problem here is that he would have much less trouble without Taiga.
At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will.
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Do you really think she means what she says? She is a “tsundere” after all. Her tokens of appreciation were very subtle in the novel, and they are even more subtle in the manga. For example, why did she mention Ryuji at the confession? There is more than one way to interpret this situation, but it comes to mind that she wanted to recognize the support of the person who had always stood next to her—the same one who brought her words out.

On the other hand, I think Ryuji has already received a “thank you” from her, even if he himself did not quite realize it. By dismissing him and/or trying to fix the misunderstandings on her own.
The problem isn't the fact she isn't thankful. The problem is that she isn't able to do that despite how grand Ryuji's efforts are. I can accept tsundere have difficult time to play the honesty card here and there. But for crying out lourd: he basically pull her out of her "misery" routine life, helping her and withstanding her erratic moodswing.
Obviously, Ryuji KNOWS she is most likely thankful, but there is a huge and great difference in "knowing someone is thankful to you" and "hearing thanks from the said person".

That would have been a serious step forward, and I have yet realize any action from her that would be in such category of "thanks".
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There’s little doubt that Taiga “playfully” sees Ryuji as her “slave,” but have you considered why is he “putting up” with it or why he decides to stay by her side? I think Ryuji knows Taiga more than you believe he does, especially the fact that she is no tough girl. If somebody of such “true nature” like Taiga decides to belittle him, is that patience of his the object shaking here? He probably doesn’t really care of said belittlement because it’s not ill intended in the first place—or it hasn’t gone to the point of affecting him in the bare minimum. And Ryuji happens to be very understanding due to his own upbringing, and especially when it comes to Taiga—who is basically hopeless trying to take care of herself.
I cannot exactly imagine how it would be "playful". And if you ask my opinion, if she does that because it is playful, that is even more disgusting. That is plain sadism.

I never said Ryuji didn't know much about her. But like I said, the situations are the problems which go on contrast with Ryuji's ability to bear things. The problem isn't the character Ryuji, but how the author force things on Ryuji, through Taiga's abuse.
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Oh geez, I was making one of those random comments…

But before reading you post, I used to believe that Taiga was a lighter, yet more likeable version of Louise, but I guess you are finding Taiga even more detestable than Louise—for which, I cannot convince you otherwise.
Actually, I cannot see any of them better than the other.
Louise is basically the very jealous and uncomfortable tsundere that have the horrible habit to be very dishonest and "deviant" in her treatments.
Taiga is "more honest", but she is worse in some way as she doesn't have a real justification in her abuses. Why does she need to act though for her supporter instead of anyone around her? Why does she have to act like that despite the person obviously doesn't have ill motives about her weak side etc?

While Taiga wins some points in contrast of louise, being less of a statu quo, Taiga displays a very obnoxious tsun that doesn't have any real meaning in her situation. In a way, louise's insane behaviour can "be understood" as she is really in love with Saito and would be crushed if he ever abandons her. That of course has the side effect of irrational and stupid jealousy and dubious "enjoyement" in punishing Saito.

In the end, I certainly didn't want to see Taiga as silly as Louise, but I can't help but feel this way because of the whole "servant" thing.
They are on equal level of "bad tsundere" in my books.

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I was somewhat aware of that setup, but the conditions for that to happen were not met, not quite as yet—that was the point of my post. From this perspective, I was questioning whether the premise did circle around Taiga’s and Ryuji’s supposedly romantic aspects—for which I believe it did not, even at that confession scene. Given all the events that happened in the manga so far, it was obvious that Toradora was a romantic comedy, but it had nothing to do (for now) with a romance between Taiga and Ryuji. However, the thing that really irked me was your assumption that the readers should be rooting for them, when that should not be the case as Ryuji and Taiga have no romantic interest for the other. Should the spark develop between the two, things might change in Toradora.
That would be a blunt "agree to disagree". I certainly cannot see their relationship as absolutely platonic without any hint of possible romance. The premises of the story show 2 complete strangers "helping" each other in their love conquest but they actually learn a huge chunk more about their "supporter" instead of their love interest. This is where the manga is leading for the moment: it doesn't give a sharp and clear love for any of the protagonist. For the moment, I can't even see Ryuji's "love" for Minori as serious as he might think because he basically doesn't seem to be able to "learn" about her.
And honestly, instead of trying to get Minori's heart, he swore to stay at Taiga's side, despite she ordered him not to, and despite it would mean more abuse or whatnot. You can say some friendship can be "as strong as love", but the manga is so roundabout of their feelings that it leave too much room for romance between then.

This is where my assumption stands: the manga "failed" to show me a true attempt of each other helping for their love conquest. I basically expect it to be a four sided romance. Whether I'm wrong or right about it due of the light novels spoilers or not, It is completely irrelevant. I only gave my opinion so far from the manga, and honestly, this is how it was possible to assuming "until now".

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Well, Taiga’s behavior does not go beyond the “playful belittlement” compared to say Louise sadomasochist’s tendencies. And yes, a person does not have the right to treat others like rag, but I think a relationship where one engages in “playful belittlements” with a friend is unique and especial in itself. (I selfdom do this with my closest friends)
Again, I'm astonished with "playful". Does she look like enjoying or going malicious and "jokingly" go panzer against Ryuji?
I honestly can imagine that people can be a bit bossy or "nasty" in their jokes, but I would certainly not consider "playful" in a "non human treatment". That is basically impossible. Sure both are laughing about these... not.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters.
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Well, I certainly got the selfish part of Taiga’s character. Why she doesn’t want others to be happy is probably because she herself is not entirely happy—living alone, being such a klutz, having his very life depend on a guy (I might elaborate on this later on). And within the parameters of Taiga’s behavior, it’s not strange that she wants to be happy before Ryuji.
That is actually the reason why I pointed her inability to consider her surrounding. "Me, me, ME FIRST!". Okay, most people are obviously selfish (absolute selflessness is extremely difficult to imagine with human), but when you hereby focus in detriment of others, to the point of imposing yourself, this is not acceptable.
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here.

Again, the background does NOT justify that to me.
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Actually, Toradora has some layers of depth that can make for an interesting analysis if somebody is up to the task (there was a small hint of this in chapters 7-11).

At least she is not writing names on a death note. Wait, wrong series/genre.

There’s nothing really wrong with Taiga’s character as far as my experience with the manga goes and regardless of your posts claiming otherwise. She might do things wrong, but it’s an intrinsic part of her character. Would Toradora be the same if we replace Taiga for a much perfect character that can suit everybody’s preferences? Such character does not exist, but within a certain criteria, I believe Taiga is good enough with her flaws and her selfish behavior.
Personally, I already exposed my opinion bluntly enough, so I don't think repeating such lines would be necessary. Yet again, it is a mere sense of perspective.

Actually, I'm not keen for perfect characters either, and people have their own tastes (even if I can't understand some people love/hate, they are obviously rightfully until it is mere fanboyism/bashing). I would certainly see a tsundere in Toradora, that's a fact. But I would largely prefer one in the "extent" of Shana for instance: unexperimented, a bit rash, but absolutely not bossy or whatnot.
Sure, TD can get its share of unstoppable slapstick "thanks" to Taiga's fiery character, but I must say that I'm atrociously jaded by "random" or overboard bossy/violent side without much "break".
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The point I was trying to make, if I was not clear enough, is that it’s not possible to compare two series’ qualities/strengths/weaknesses based on the similarities hold by the main characters—in this case, Taiga and Louise—and still believe that one of them was judged in the right terms. And to spice things more, I’m not even sure if such comparison is suitable when one is anime (assuming again, that this was your first encounter with the Zero no Tsukaima franchise) and the other is in its manga form (Toradora).
I think there was a big misunderstanding here.
First, I compared ZNT and TD only because of sake of reference or "image". I used Louise in order to show how I looked Taiga, except it was only a exaggerated view (which was further explained above).
I did NOT use ZNT as part of my reasoning for "enjoying" TD.

Strictly speaking, only Taiga is giving me a lot of troubles to "look forwards" to the anime version of it. And my reasoning for this is: in anime adaptation, it "should" have a range of faithfulness (until you are going nutso like in Negima).

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Anyway, I want to ask you something concerning this ordeal, why would Taiga need to act nice? Why would people need to act nice when it’s not part of their character? As far as your argument goes, I only saw an opinion on why you are not coming to believe either Taiga’s or Ryuji’s character/personality, for which I’m trying to respond with an opinion as well.
I would see her behaviour as OOC as well if she starts to go fluffy lovey out of nowhere. As far as I used as argument:
1) I have hard time to stand Taiga's behaviour because of the tsun
2) Ryuji's situation is hardly as "possible" due of the circumstances that "look forced to me".

Now, for my "enjoyement" part, I would say that I would rather expect further development for Taiga, toning down her wild behaviour for quite a while, and "subtly" helping Ryuji times to times. I don't expect love or direct helping action. In a certain way, her "rash reaction" in classroom in order to make the misunderstanding vanish was nice. That part + the confession were actually the good parts I saw in Taiga, but the almighty page 24 of chapter 11 just gave me a very very sour aftertaste.


At any rate, it will go in circle over and over, so there isn't much possibility to see a "compromise" in our discussion. I certainly don't feel it is a matter of facts or whatnot, but perspective and opinions, so there is no need to "persuade" any side anyway. of course, it was pretty much "entertaining" and interesting to see how a story can stirr drastic different views
That said, I will obviously try to "continue" the manga and perhaps trying the anime with a blank slate in mind, though I cannot expect much "patience" if there is such statu quo going on for dozens of chapters...
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Old 2008-08-31, 16:03   Link #108
Anh_Minh
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I agree that Taiga is abusive and ungrateful. However, there are a few points in which I see differently from you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self.
She's a tiger to anyone but Minori and Kitamura. That's how she got her nickname. I don't think she's especially bad to Ryuji, he just gets more of it because he spends more time with her.

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And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant.
I think, consciously or not, he's just glad of the excuse to procrastinate. As long as he doesn't tell himself "I have to confess now", he isn't as tongue-tied as Taiga, but if he were to actually pursue Minori (instead of, for example, using his eyes as an excuse not to just ask her out), he'd be every bit as afraid or more. That's why he admires her "courage". In a way, helping Taiga gets him more and more used to Minori. Maybe one day he'll actually have the guts to have a good, one on one conversation with her or something.

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I never said it would be never happen. However, he has nothing to gain here. of course, like I said before, he is the type of character that doesn't need reason to help someone. That said, the problem here is that he would have much less trouble without Taiga.
Thanks to Taiga, he went from "classmate" to "friend of her best friend". He occasionally talks with Minori. Without Taiga, he'd still be stuck watching her from afar.

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I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters.
That is actually the reason why I pointed her inability to consider her surrounding. "Me, me, ME FIRST!". Okay, most people are obviously selfish (absolute selflessness is extremely difficult to imagine with human), but when you hereby focus in detriment of others, to the point of imposing yourself, this is not acceptable.
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here.
I don't think she'd try that hard to separate them. She first said it to punish him for saying to insistently they had no ties at all, and she never went back on it. She did accept to go at the family restaurant almost every day just so he can gaze at Minori without saying anything much. That can't have been fun. Not after the first two or three times, anyway.
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Old 2008-08-31, 18:06   Link #109
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I didn't read everything(yet >.>) but how long did it take for those posts?
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Old 2008-08-31, 18:19   Link #110
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She's a tiger to anyone but Minori and Kitamura. That's how she got her nickname. I don't think she's especially bad to Ryuji, he just gets more of it because he spends more time with her.
Correct. That's what I actually meant: Taiga's tsun is basically full blown against any stranger. Minori is obviously out of this pattern, and kitamura for obvious reason.
This is the reason why her tsun has some rash effect, as it wouldn't be exactly that pretty with someone not as goody-two-shoes as Ryuji.
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I think, consciously or not, he's just glad of the excuse to procrastinate. As long as he doesn't tell himself "I have to confess now", he isn't as tongue-tied as Taiga, but if he were to actually pursue Minori (instead of, for example, using his eyes as an excuse not to just ask her out), he'd be every bit as afraid or more. That's why he admires her "courage". In a way, helping Taiga gets him more and more used to Minori. Maybe one day he'll actually have the guts to have a good, one on one conversation with her or something.
Thanks to Taiga, he went from "classmate" to "friend of her best friend". He occasionally talks with Minori. Without Taiga, he'd still be stuck watching her from afar.
Exactly, this is why I said "At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will."
If, let's say, Minori was completely unrelated to Taiga, chances Taiga "would help him due to circumstances" are basically null and void. You can say that Ryuji only gain here is that both girls are friends, but it is obviously not "thanks to Taiga". For the time being (until I got really blind), Taiga never helped directly or even indirectly by her own will for Ryuji's "mission", which is not encouraging. The sole factor is a indirect help as he can interact with Minori, through hanging around Taiga. Quite roundabout.
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Old 2008-08-31, 18:25   Link #111
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If Ryuiji and Taiga became a full-fledged couple after chapter 11, I think I would appreciate the series a lot more... one time around the block is enough, thank you.

Besides, I think story would have more potential if they actually took that step. Otherwise you get an endless stream of misunderstandings, new rivals, and love triangles - it's a formula that gets old fast.

P.S. As for Ami, I don't see too many opportunities. Her strongest connections are to Kitamura. She may be "stunning" but let's face it; Taiga and Minori aren't exactly lacking in the looks department. It's going to be a tough sell...
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Old 2008-09-01, 03:32   Link #112
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I'd prefer if Taiga and Ryuji remained friends. They're more fun that way.
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Old 2008-09-01, 07:47   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'd prefer if Taiga and Ryuji remained friends. They're more fun that way.
But you know that it wont happen, because you can tell that they somewhat feelings for each other but its early.
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Old 2008-09-01, 08:44   Link #114
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Yeah. Alas.
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Old 2008-09-01, 13:45   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I will give you a point about this. However, the problem wasn't exactly that "he understands her", the problem is how he can withstand. This is where I actually mentioned the "patience of saint". If he didn't understand her, it wouldn't be patience, it would be absolute masochism or foolishness. That's why I gived credits for him, but not the author.
and no, they are NOT in equal grounds. Ryuji is quite honest and always tell things that might go against him. OTOH, Taiga does NOT returning the favors at all. Her "understanding" and "weak" phases are absolutely not representative of equal grounds considering how she is in tsun 90% of the time, which means: abuse.
I want to mention first that this is only my interpretation. The equal ground is the underlying notion that they can depend on each other when the time comes (especially in Taiga’s case), or become able to have a conversation/argument/belittlement with no ill feelings left afterwards.

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You are discarding what Taiga is so flustered about with her confession to kitamura. She was able to define clearly her feelings for Kitamura, yet, she is unable to pin point Ryuji's in her "ranking".
And I thought she was trying to acknowledge Ryuji’s great involvement in her life. Her inexperience/innocence certainly plays a role in this situation as well. One, she fails to realize that all this inarticulate speech is starting to lead everything into the wrong direction; and two, it is definitely not the right moment for such “appreciative gesture.” That mistake cost her dearly in the end, so I guess she really wanted to say it no matter what—in one futile attempt to clear things up, or make it even messier.

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Honestly, while it isn't clear, I certainly doubt their relationship will remain platonic at this rate.
The relationship will remain platonic as long as nothing extraordinary happens to those two in order to change their minds.

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Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self. However, she "manages" to be completely dazed at her curcial part of her confession despite she could obviously ignore completely Ryuji's topic during that. Worse, she is even sidetracking her love demonstration with her relationship/feelings for Ryuji. I would not call that "normal friendship".
It’s not a normal friendship per se, but not quite as romantic either. First of all, remember that Taiga is not supposed to be very confident/secure when it comes to the person she loves—failing multiple times to remain quiet and unaltered, and falling victim of her own embarrassment. And this was building up throughout the day just before the confession. As part of Taiga’s character, it’s somewhat understandable to lose control of her words because her romantic aspiration was in front of her. Now, why mentioning Ryuji out of all her options? Probably the first thing that came to her mind and the rest that happened was an aftermath of her nervousness—and perhaps realization. Well, it’s up to speculation in the end.

The relationship certainly transcends that of a normal label. They basically live together, do shopping together, and eat together on the same table. But they haven’t developed any form of romantic feeling for each other, because their minds are still set on their respective crush. As I mentioned before, it’s sort of special in itself; no matter how much Taiga seems to “neglect” Ryuji, he and she will still have that close underlying bond.

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You are taking my words way too much on the first degree. You don't need to beg for mercy or such to prove there is a problem. Ryuji got his life literally invaded by taiga, and he has no means nor the character to repell her. Of course, considering his character background, it would be clearly out of character if he kicks her out. However, I hardly believe Ryuji is liking the rough treatment.

I was trying to be sarcastic… oh well

All depends on whether Ryuji really wants to repel Taiga, or leave her completely alone for that matter—he really can’t due this to his character/personality. It crossed my mind more than once, what would have happened if Ryuji never decided to care of her, or what would have occurred if he didn’t vow to stay with her on “equal grounds”—this latter meaning to continue his involvement in her life? Would have Taiga survived on her own? (You would probably say that she doesn’t deserve to live) I think Taiga basically owes her life to Ryuji, even though she wouldn’t completely admit it in front of him.

I doubt a normal person would have enjoyed a treatment similar to Taiga’s, but it’s Ryuji the one we are talking about. I think it’s somewhat balanced, the same way life is. He probably doesn’t enjoy those “little belittlements,” even though they might not be ill intended, but he certainly enjoys the small payoff of taking care of her, or believing that he is getting closer to Minorin, or that Taiga is not feeling alone by doing this.

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And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant.
Ryuji hasn’t forsaken his romantic aspiration altogether. There is more than one reason why he might want to help Taiga first. His lack of confidence is still an obstacle, which could have been caused by his inability at social interaction. And that’s without including the fact that Minorin has already misunderstood them in the past, creating an even thicker wall between the two. So helping Taiga might be a bit easier for him.

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I never said it would be never happen. However, he has nothing to gain here. of course, like I said before, he is the type of character that doesn't need reason to help someone. That said, the problem here is that he would have much less trouble without Taiga.
At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will.
His friendship with Taiga is a little step forward, rather than backwards. I think he seems a bit closer to Minorin than he was before befriending the tiger. But now that he is friends with her, things slightly change. Whether that change is favorable or not, or whether he would have less trouble without her, I don’t think there exists one argument/condition alone to explain the whole situation. For one, Ryuji’s lack of social interaction could have played a role as well. Anyhow, I believe that if any spark/event were to “seriously” develop between Ryuji and Minorin, it would have to go through Taiga, because it will indeed involve her as her friend.

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The problem isn't the fact she isn't thankful. The problem is that she isn't able to do that despite how grand Ryuji's efforts are. I can accept tsundere have difficult time to play the honesty card here and there. But for crying out lourd: he basically pull her out of her "misery" routine life, helping her and withstanding her erratic moodswing.
Obviously, Ryuji KNOWS she is most likely thankful, but there is a huge and great difference in "knowing someone is thankful to you" and "hearing thanks from the said person".
Rare cases are those where you actually hear a “thank you” coming out of a tsundere’s mouth—it’s somewhat expected not to hear one in a long time, even though they should show some appreciation in a sincere way.

Anyhow, I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga has a “lame excuse” for not doing so, only that it’s not really out of character. What I’m about to say it’s probably absurd, but hopefully it can give a better understanding of this situation. Strictly speaking, people—especially kids—won’t say “thank you” as long as nobody teaches them to do so properly—and there’s little doubt that Taiga’s behavior can be easily compared to that of a brat. Now, given Taiga’s upbringing it should not be a surprise that she doesn’t know or is willing to “say thanks”—we are talking about the same person who wouldn’t yield to her parents.

In the end, I consider this as one of those reasons why you cannot stomach Taiga’s personality/behavior—with especial regards to her tsun side.

Taiga has a lot to thank Ryuji for, and she tried somehow, but in a very subtle and indirect way in my opinion.

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I cannot exactly imagine how it would be "playful". And if you ask my opinion, if she does that because it is playful, that is even more disgusting. That is plain sadism.
By playful I meant “not ill intended.”

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I never said Ryuji didn't know much about her. But like I said, the situations are the problems which go on contrast with Ryuji's ability to bear things. The problem isn't the character Ryuji, but how the author force things on Ryuji, through Taiga's abuse.
We will probably know once Ryuji hits his limits. At least that’s the only thing I can say to this never ending point.
Actually, I cannot see any of them better than the other.
Louise is basically the very jealous and uncomfortable tsundere that have the horrible habit to be very dishonest and "deviant" in her treatments.
Taiga is "more honest", but she is worse in some way as she doesn't have a real justification in her abuses. Why does she need to act though for her supporter instead of anyone around her? Why does she have to act like that despite the person obviously doesn't have ill motives about her weak side etc?
Human behavior is a complex thing. Most people wear a façade to the outside world, and only show their true colors once they are hanging out with their closest friends. Taiga is no exception, because she—as Kitamura pointed out—has more expressions when she is around Ryuji—that’s in part her true color, I guess. But it just so happens that she would prefer to be selfish no matter what—even at the cost of Ryuji’s “kindness.” She can’t help doing this; it’s part of her character after all. Remember that’s the way she has been introduced in the manga—selfish and bossy, especially towards Ryuji—and she is not the type that would change 180 degrees so easily—not after 10 chapters of the manga, and not when she still has her eyes set on Kitamura. Now, isn’t her “weak side” really her true self? Yes, in part, and this has been shown to Ryuji who knows about this—the times she has been falling on the ground, or the very fact that they both share the feeling of being misunderstood. The problem lies in Taiga who would not allow him to find a single point of weakness in her—even though he is already aware of it.

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And honestly, instead of trying to get Minori's heart, he swore to stay at Taiga's side, despite she ordered him not to, and despite it would mean more abuse or whatnot. You can say some friendship can be "as strong as love", but the manga is so roundabout of their feelings that it leave too much room for romance between then.
He is kind-hearted…

His decision is based in great part to the fact that he knows Taiga more than anybody else, even more than Minorin. As I said before, given Ryuji’s character and the events surrounding Taiga’s frustrating ordeal, he wanted to stand with the girl he felt needed his help the most—not necessarily with a romantic plan in mind.

I sort of understand your point there; it doesn’t quite make sense to leave aside the girl you love and swear “on equal grounds” to a person with such a character “like hers.” I think, within the parameters of Ryuji’s personality/character, that the Minorin’s business could wait (it’s not like somebody was already advancing behind his back) in order to cheer up/help Taiga. An act of rashness, perhaps; but take into account that given Taiga’s frustration after the utterly failed attempt and her tendency to bear difficult things on her own (like trying to fix the misunderstandings for him), she wouldn’t have gotten out of the hole without his help—that’s probably what he thought in my humble opinion.

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Again, I'm astonished with "playful". Does she look like enjoying or going malicious and "jokingly" go panzer against Ryuji?
I honestly can imagine that people can be a bit bossy or "nasty" in their jokes, but I would certainly not consider "playful" in a "non human treatment". That is basically impossible. Sure both are laughing about these... not.
Yes, she does… you should ask some people around
That blush on the last page of chapter 11 says everything.

They are actually laughing—or she is actually laughing—just below the blush…

While I use phrases like “playful belittlement” and “appreciative gesture,” you go as far as using “non human treatment,” “abuse,” “rag,” “disgusting” “sadism” and other words of equivalent/similar connotation. I wonder which one of us is telling the truth... there should be a middle ground somewhere.

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I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters.
When there exists a close friendship, everything is forgiven…
and you should notice that he doesn’t take the belittlements with rancor.
and don’t forget that they are not taking their “arguments” seriously, either.

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That is actually the reason why I pointed her inability to consider her surrounding. "Me, me, ME FIRST!". Okay, most people are obviously selfish (absolute selflessness is extremely difficult to imagine with human), but when you hereby focus in detriment of others, to the point of imposing yourself, this is not acceptable.
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here.
We should ask the person himself… oh yeah, his ability to bear things.

Focusing in the detriment of other… it sounds like Taiga is trying to make the life of “others” miserable—especially Ryuji’s… I’m still sort of trying to understand the extent/context of your words…

Is really “imposing” the worst thing that could have happened to Ryuji’s life, or the worst thing that Taiga could do?

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Strictly speaking, only Taiga is giving me a lot of troubles to "look forwards" to the anime version of it. And my reasoning for this is: in anime adaptation, it "should" have a range of faithfulness (until you are going nutso like in Negima).
I would see her behaviour as OOC as well if she starts to go fluffy lovey out of nowhere. As far as I used as argument:
1) I have hard time to stand Taiga's behaviour because of the tsun
2) Ryuji's situation is hardly as "possible" due of the circumstances that "look forced to me".
Point 1 is a lost cause…
With point 2 I still have my hopes.

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There are two things I’m trying to argue here:

Now, for my "enjoyement" part, I would say that I would rather expect further development for Taiga, toning down her wild behaviour for quite a while, and "subtly" helping Ryuji times to times. I don't expect love or direct helping action. In a certain way, her "rash reaction" in classroom in order to make the misunderstanding vanish was nice. That part + the confession were actually the good parts I saw in Taiga, but the almighty page 24 of chapter 11 just gave me a very very sour aftertaste.
I think you missed Taiga’s blush on the next page because of that…

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At any rate, it will go in circle over and over, so there isn't much possibility to see a "compromise" in our discussion. I certainly don't feel it is a matter of facts or whatnot, but perspective and opinions, so there is no need to "persuade" any side anyway. of course, it was pretty much "entertaining" and interesting to see how a story can stirr drastic different views
That said, I will obviously try to "continue" the manga and perhaps trying the anime with a blank slate in mind, though I cannot expect much "patience" if there is such statu quo going on for dozens of chapters...
I will suggest reading the novel, since I’m not very enthusiastic about the anime either. Although the manga and the novel are pretty much the same, I think you can get a better feeling/understanding of what’s going on (plus reading it along the manga it’s a nice experience in my opinion).


You are absolutely sure that Ryuji is not winning anything in his relationship with Taiga. I obviously disagree with that statement, but I can kinda see where it’s coming from. Now, the question would be, is Ryuji losing anything in his relationship with Taiga? At least he is not losing money since the food comes from Taiga’s wallet as well. However, Ryuji hasn’t shown any sign of regret, even though all the circumstances may have pointed otherwise. The reason being is that he hasn’t lost anything, nothing of importance. I would even go as far as saying that he is somewhat happy—regardless of Taiga’s selfish behavior—because helping somebody as useless and lonely as Taiga gives him satisfaction.

The other point I was trying to argue was the supposedly romantic premise between Ryuji and Taiga, which I believe there are no strong hints for this to happen—as long as the original premise is not completely broken. But I agree with the possibility, at least. However, the other problem was your assumption that the readers should root for it—not necessarily implying that they should root for the original romantic aspirations instead. If I could summarize Toradora, I would say that the label of romantic comedy applies in its entirety, but it loosely follows the general trend—that is, concentrating on a romance occurring strictly speaking “within” the main couple—but this is not happening here as of now. Though there exists the possibility.


In the end, the only thing I could see from your argument is your hate for Taiga’s character (which is a good thing, given that hate is a form of love ). I agree with you in the sense that this is the kind of argument with no possible end in sight, but I’m very obstinate myself.
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Old 2008-09-01, 14:31   Link #116
Klashikari
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Since the discussion should have ended, I will only comment few lines to give "polishing" details of my previous posts, as it seems you are actually encaging me into a very "hate" situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
All depends on whether Ryuji really wants to repel Taiga, or leave her completely alone for that matter—he really can’t due this to his character/personality. It crossed my mind more than once, what would have happened if Ryuji never decided to care of her, or what would have occurred if he didn’t vow to stay with her on “equal grounds”—this latter meaning to continue his involvement in her life? Would have Taiga survived on her own? (You would probably say that she doesn’t deserve to live) I think Taiga basically owes her life to Ryuji, even though she wouldn’t completely admit it in front of him.
Huh wait what? I don't think I screamed death or anything here. Simply speaking and in a short sentence: she is obnoxious to me, end, period. Nothing to write "death" as if she was a uber villain a la FMP Gauron or Berserk Griffith.
There are rooms for development and improvements for her characters, but like I said before, I hardly condone her rash actions without much little reparation or control. The few actions she took are not enough to my judgement, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, though I don't expect a total "balance" anytime soon until she really realize her own position.
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Ryuji hasn’t forsaken his romantic aspiration altogether. There is more than one reason why he might want to help Taiga first. His lack of confidence is still an obstacle, which could have been caused by his inability at social interaction. And that’s without including the fact that Minorin has already misunderstood them in the past, creating an even thicker wall between the two. So helping Taiga might be a bit easier for him.
As portrayed as before, Ryuji is portrayed as a very benevolent young man. He doesn't have any roundabout approach, nor ultarior motives or what else. Hence, I simply don't feel like Ryuji was trying to get a benefit from their relationship. He solely did that for her, not for him.
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Anyhow, I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga has a “lame excuse” for not doing so, only that it’s not really out of character. What I’m about to say it’s probably absurd, but hopefully it can give a better understanding of this situation. Strictly speaking, people—especially kids—won’t say “thank you” as long as nobody teaches them to do so properly—and there’s little doubt that Taiga’s behavior can be easily compared to that of a brat. Now, given Taiga’s upbringing it should not be a surprise that she doesn’t know or is willing to “say thanks”—we are talking about the same person who wouldn’t yield to her parents.
This is exactly the point I intended to make: she is "bratty" in such regards. Therefore, it is a "minus point" of her character. That's all. I don't question anything about the "reasons for that", thing is: she is unable to do that or at least trying to return the favor (I don't think refusing Ryuji's return of his servant status is anything of that category), which is irking me (I don't expect any tsundere to naturally thanking the other character straight with a smile, though after so many events and "build up", it would not have been a luxury).
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By playful I meant “not ill intended.”
Err... that is certainly a complete change of meaning...
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Yes, she does… you should ask some people around
That blush on the last page of chapter 11 says everything.

They are actually laughing—or she is actually laughing—just below the blush…
I really can't consider this blush as demonstration that is it is all fun or whatnot, especially that she mentioned "Taiga he says". Though this is only at the end of chapter 11, while she is arguably not exactly "teasing".

And if it is only one sided, I fail to see how it would be acceptable. I wouldn't exactly see fitting to make someone crawling in the dirt and having fun at that sight, while the said person isn't exactly laughing at that matter either. I can understand that some rivals and friends can exchange nasty things, but one sidedly while you get the other person a bit clueless for this kind of reaction, that isn't exactly "fun" in its general sense.
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While I use phrases like “playful belittlement” and “appreciative gesture,” you go as far as using “non human treatment,” “abuse,” “rag,” “disgusting” “sadism” and other words of equivalent/similar connotation. I wonder which one of us is telling the truth... there should be a middle ground somewhere.
I believe I used the terms as they are worth here. Inhuman as she basically didn't see Ryuji as human during her treatment. She even separate ryuji into "dog" portion and "human portion". Abuse as she impose herself, and Rag as Ryuji is simply taking blows from her.

And please remember that disgusting and sadism were used in a "if" scenario, where I said that if it was "only for her personal enjoyement", it would indeed be extremely difficult to sympathize with. Trampling people for enjoyement is sadism which doesn't work well even in slapstick comedy. (at least, it could be worse if there was ill motive behind these).

That said, I don't think I ever said she deserve to die or whatnot. It seems you are mistaking my terms depicting her actions towards the very person/character taiga.

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When there exists a close friendship, everything is forgiven…
and you should notice that he doesn’t take the belittlements with rancor.
and don’t forget that they are not taking their “arguments” seriously, either.

We should ask the person himself… oh yeah, his ability to bear things.
The fact the person affected by such belittlements is okay with these doesn't mean it is anything forgiveable. That is fine for Ryuji, but it wasn't in my perspective as I said. After that, I don't think anyone should always share the "victim" point of view in X or Y situation. That applies in real life: I don't think the audience would always be okay with the victim forgiving the culprit etc (it is an example, of course, the scale and context are obviously extremely different, not comparable. it is a illustrative example).
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Focusing in the detriment of other… it sounds like Taiga is trying to make the life of “others” miserable—especially Ryuji’s… I’m still sort of trying to understand the extent/context of your words…

Is really “imposing” the worst thing that could have happened to Ryuji’s life, or the worst thing that Taiga could do?
You don't have to "try to make people miserable" to focus on something in the detriment of others. As I said, Taiga basically forcing the "duo" into her kitamura mission in detriment of Ryuji's own, as he wouldn't be able to do what he should really want to. Of course, it is nice and well that Ryuji agrees to help her, but it is still at the detriment of his own happiness. Even if Taiga didn't mean/intend to do that, she is the direct cause of that, period.
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Point 1 is a lost cause…
With point 2 I still have my hopes.
You keep repeating you aren't trying to convince me, but it seems you are. Honestly, there isn't anything about lost cause as if I was a lost sheep from the pack you know. That is kinda offending me to be honest.
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I think you missed Taiga’s blush on the next page because of that…
No I didn't, but I didn't take the blush as a "great" factor, as you did. Perspective, again.
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In the end, the only thing I could see from your argument is your hate for Taiga’s character (which is a good thing, given that hate is a form of love ). I agree with you in the sense that this is the kind of argument with no possible end in sight, but I’m very obstinate myself.
Of course, though it wasn't an argument but an opinion which I was forced to give more arguments afterwards. My post wasn't meant to bring random points I believe. And I didn't post to argue whether I'm right or wrong, or if taiga is anything like Louise or whatever. I presented my opinion only, that would certainly go in agreement and disagreement. It isn't anything like a debate or a thesis to confirm or deny. Hence it is beginning to be extremely tiring to be always justifying points that are clear and certainly not shared. You are very obstinate, but I think the whole deal isn't really going to a good way if it is one sided.
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Old 2008-09-01, 16:09   Link #117
Falkor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Since the discussion should have ended, I will only comment few lines to give "polishing" details of my previous posts, as it seems you are actually encaging me into a very "hate" situation.
I believe that your last post did not offer any kind of satisfying conclusion; it was actually inviting me to answer as well… should I keep quiet then?

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Huh wait what? I don't think I screamed death or anything here. Simply speaking and in a short sentence: she is obnoxious to me, end, period. Nothing to write "death" as if she was a uber villain a la FMP Gauron or Berserk Griffith.
There are rooms for development and improvements for her characters, but like I said before, I hardly condone her rash actions without much little reparation or control. The few actions she took are not enough to my judgement, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, though I don't expect a total "balance" anytime soon until she really realize her own position.
I just forgot the little emoticon…

I made such a comment in light of the impression I was getting from your post. I apologize if you found such comment ill intended.

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I believe I used the terms as they are worth here. Inhuman as she basically didn't see Ryuji as human during her treatment. She even separate ryuji into "dog" portion and "human portion". Abuse as she impose herself, and Rag as Ryuji is simply taking blows from her.

And please remember that disgusting and sadism were used in a "if" scenario, where I said that if it was "only for her personal enjoyement", it would indeed be extremely difficult to sympathize with. Trampling people for enjoyement is sadism which doesn't work well even in slapstick comedy. (at least, it could be worse if there was ill motive behind these).

That said, I don't think I ever said she deserve to die or whatnot. It seems you are mistaking my terms depicting her actions towards the very person/character taiga.
And I was pointing out the exaggeration of those terms, as it doesn’t quite fit the tone/image of the series—even after you explained your intentions. And while I used exaggeration as well, the point being made was the somewhat absurd situations those terms have created, hence a bit of a problem to take your’s and mine’s opinion/argument without a salty/believable taste.
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You keep repeating you aren't trying to convince me, but it seems you are. Honestly, there isn't anything about lost cause as if I was a lost sheep from the pack you know. That is kinda offending me to be honest.
I think you are reading too much into my words, as “lost cause” was intended to say that I don’t have the means to convince you otherwise. If some parts of my post were trying to change your mind, it was unfortunately an intrinsic part of my opinion—for which I should apologize seeing that you are already taking the whole situation “seriously.”


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Of course, though it wasn't an argument but an opinion which I was forced to give more arguments afterwards. My post wasn't meant to bring random points I believe. And I didn't post to argue whether I'm right or wrong, or if taiga is anything like Louise or whatever. I presented my opinion only, that would certainly go in agreement and disagreement. It isn't anything like a debate or a thesis to confirm or deny. Hence it is beginning to be extremely tiring to be always justifying points that are clear and certainly not shared. You are very obstinate, but I think the whole deal isn't really going to a good way if it is one sided.
I believe that if you want to rant about a show, you should be prepared for whatever reply comes in response. Moreover, if you are fully aware that your opinion does not quite follow the “general consensus,” a bit of “respect” for those who like the series/characters is appreciated, or at least, the willingness to reach a compromise—which really, I entirely missed from your posts, and it wasn’t because our opinions tremendously differed.


Anyway, you are quite forgetting the last thing I said in my first reply: “It was fun replying to you.” I’m always trying to keep my entertainment factor as I write; otherwise, I wouldn’t go as far as writing such lengthy opinions in the first place. It's only an opinion with some room for humor after all
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Old 2008-09-01, 16:35   Link #118
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
I believe that your last post did not offer any kind of satisfying conclusion; it was actually inviting me to answer as well… should I keep quiet then?
You are obviously free to answer. However, as both of us obviously noticed, any "compromise" or whatever wouldn't be found. The "agree to disagree" would be far more preferable, and I don't think looking for a satisfying conclusion a simple matter of opinions would be necessary. And to be honest, I'm sure many people begin to wonder for what sake or insane reason we are rambling on the same things over and over with wall of text.
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I made such a comment in light of the impression I was getting from your post. I apologize if you found such comment ill intended.
I did not feel it ill intended, though I was upset that I was encaged into quite a strict image of critic just because of a dislike of a character. Nothing past this point, hence why the misunderstanding was preferable to be corrected as fast as I could, for discussion sake.
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And I was pointing out the exaggeration of those terms, as it doesn’t quite fit the tone/image of the series—even after you explained your intentions. And while I used exaggeration as well, the point being made was the somewhat absurd situations those terms have created, hence a bit of a problem to take your’s and mine’s opinion/argument without a salty/believable taste.
Yet again, I explained that it wasn't the case, and I already mentioned that it wouldn't be within her characters. It is again a "what if scenario", an application of such terms if that situation were to happen, which would never happen considering the tone and the genre of the series. If it was the case, I wouldn't even trouble myself in ranting that casually about that series. I don't think a situation would be generate if it was for instance or to explain the reaction if it was the case, showing that I'm not blindlessly thinking there are torture and such here.
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I believe that if you want to rant about a show, you should be prepared for whatever reply comes in response. Moreover, if you are fully aware that your opinion does not quite follow the “general consensus,” a bit of “respect” for those who like the series/characters is appreciated, or at least, the willingness to reach a compromise—which really, I entirely missed from your posts, and it wasn’t because our opinions tremendously differed.
I think quite ridiculous and preposterous to think that it would be anything useful to post a rant then expecting to be freed from charge. I wouldn't post anything if I were to not accept anyone's reaction.

I did expect answers and reactions or simple silence, as I barely leave an opinion instead of a debate or whatnot. Should they answer or not, I would answer if needed or so. Only, with the current flow of the discussion, instead of discussing of the very topic, it keeps flowing on the same argument circle of "disagreement". As far I as I can read myself back, I didn't intend to direspect anything about those who like the manga and I insisted that "I" have problems with a character, nothing more. I certainly believe I didn't give demerit of the manga in a objective stance or so, and everything was solely based on a character appreciation, purely subjective based on my tastes. Hence, I don't think I ever tried to trample anyone's opinion here. That said, I still can't find any possible way to agree with your points and own perspective. that is the very reason why I felt it was meaningless to continue as it turned into a clash of opinions instead of a real discussion with arguments. As said already, it isn't exactly required to have a winning side or whatnot: anyone can enjoy or dislike what they want/do.
Hence why I don't even see a reason for a compromise: we aren't defending politics and such, we are giving points of our own interpretations of facts and opinions on Taiga and Ryuji (and execution of the story), that's all. I certainly did not answer several times for sake of "victory", but to expose the points I had in mind. In agreement or not, it does not matter to me as it isn't the point for me to appose my opinion to others.
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Anyway, you are quite forgetting the last thing I said in my first reply: “It was fun replying to you.” I’m always trying to keep my entertainment factor as I write; otherwise, I wouldn’t go as far as writing such lengthy opinions in the first place. It's only an opinion with some room for humor after all
I didn't forget about that, but your last post wasn't entertainment factor to me, due of the obsination. No hard feelings though, but as I said, it won't end on a compromise or whatnot. Not like I don't want to, but the mere difference of opinions is not a matter of compromise or whatnot.

and I must say it is my duty as a moderator to stop off topic, which I'm dangerously doing myself right now. I don't think there isn't anything to blame or whatever, though the whole discussion is taking a very weird turn for mere divergence of opinions. Well, that is again my opinion.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-09-01 at 16:49.
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Old 2008-09-01, 22:26   Link #119
jzmagic
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At this point, I have to agree that Ryuuji's bond with Taiga feels pretty forced at this point. He crushes on Monori but feels compelled to continue his relationship with Taiga to the point where he's taking care of her every day to the point where you could assume they were intimate, when they're not. The signs point to both of them graddually developing feelings for each other down the road I suppose.
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Old 2008-09-01, 23:07   Link #120
Falkor
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That settles everything down; though I wouldn’t mind continuing aimlessly. It will give the posters something to read before the next chapter (one month is a long wait)… oh just joking here…

Anyway, I want to honor your stance/opinion to discontinue this “game of disagreements”—it’s not going to bring anything new to the table, nor is going to be any different from our last posts.
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