Spoiler Policy Q&A thread

[Kristen]

I have a question that's been bothering me for a while about spoilers from before an episode is fansubbed. In the case of show that are liscenced, at what time is it appropriate to talk without a spoiler? Is it any time after it airs, after the fansubs appear (Even though ASuki basically treats them like they don't exist for ethical reasons), after the show is released dubbed, or after a certain amount of time?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

I have a question that's been bothering me for a while about spoilers from before an episode is fansubbed. In the case of show that are liscenced, at what time is it appropriate to talk without a spoiler? Is it any time after it airs, after the fansubs appear (Even though ASuki basically treats them like they don't exist for ethical reasons), after the show is released dubbed, or after a certain amount of time?

I suppose the best answer is probably "use your best judgement"? Putting raw discussion behind spoiler tags is a recommendation in the current policy, and it's a courtesy for those who don't watch raws. Those actively participating in the discussion will presumably be watching the show somehow, so it would make sense to generally follow that same sort of timing. If you're discussing the raw as it comes out, it's considerate to put it behind spoiler tags.

Hope that basically answers the question...

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Have you really been banned before, TSO?

Well, once or maybe twice... it was before those infractions were invented.
And the thing that bothered me most about the one time was, that I got banned for a suggestion, that coincidentally was exactly what's going to happen. And that is something, that shouldn't occur.
People should still be able to freely guess about the direction of a series.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And I would also say, sometimes people put too much weight on infractions. They sound really ominous (and the structure of the form-letter doesn't help!), but they're like parking tickets, or maybe speeding tickets if you prefer. They're not generally something to lose sleep over.

The point is, that those are "parking tickets", you can't get rid of. Even if they expire, they will stay forever on my profile page (even though only some people may see them). Therefore it's more like a scar you are branded with.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

However, it's one of those series where if someone can interpret something that could be slightly related to something similar to a spoiler, it could ruin the series for another, so it's only a courtesy for someone to post his or her analysis inside of a spoiler tag.

Interpretations, and personal guesses are no spoilers! That's a fact. Someone, talking inside an anime-thread (for example), who hasn't seen anything else besides the anime, isn't even able to spoil, since he has no future knowledge of the series. Therefore such a person shouldn't (need to) use any spoiler-tags. And the person should know that he doesn't know anything else besides the anime.
He shouldn't be punished, just because his guess may be accurate, but as long, as this person doesn't know that his suggestion is the real thing, he shouldn't use spoiler tags. And the ones reading the post should be able realize the difference between a personal guess and a spoiler.

Alternatively we could say, that opinions and guesses should also be put inside spoiler-tags. But then you probably won't find a post without it anymore.

[WanderingKnight]

Ehm, I think the whole discussion can be brought down to one thing: Common sense. Something that apparently many people lack. My eyes are still sore with all the Claymore spoilage around (they went almost blind by the Naruto-like downwards spiral the quality of the discussion took afterwards, but that's another issue altogether, and one that seems to plague every popular shounen show (WHY COULD THAT BE??)).

Look, it's not the manga thread, get your manga discussion to the proper place, or at least have the decency to wrap it in a damn spoiler. I'm one of those people who don't like reading manga on a PC monitor and thus it's kinda hard for me to catch up on all the scalations around, and it bugs me to no end when I see pages and pages of manga discussion, or even entire pages wrapped in spoiler tags discussing the manga! Just go to the proper thread already.

I mean, it's not too hard. Then again, I'm one of those people who would prefer to have less written rules and more common sense, sort of like a silent agreement between intelligent people, but what the heck.

Alternatively we could say, that opinions and guesses should also be put inside spoiler-tags. But then you probably won't find a post without it anymore.

The day I get an infraction for posting something on the lines of "I wonder if X character will end up with Y character...?" without a spoiler tag will be the day I leave AS

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

The day I get an infraction for posting something on the lines of "I wonder if X character will end up with Y character...?" without a spoiler tag will be the day I leave AS

That's certainly not likely to happen. I don't even like speculation to be in spoiler tags! Anyway, if we misunderstand something you post as speculation to be a spoiler, just let us know and we'd fix the error. We're really very responsive when we make a mistake.

[Vivio Testarossa]

Wouldn't it be easier to just create a content disclaimer such as "Any post found in this forum, may contain spoilers and content you may find objectionable. Therefore, you will read any post here AT YOUR OWN RISK! " as seen here and here.

Another thing I can think of would be the fact that this is a forum for discussing anime. In any forum that does this there WILL be content that some may consider to be "spoilers". Also, why does it matter if someone "spoils" a show for someone else, I myself am not affected by "spoilers"? After all reading about some event in a show and SEEING the event yourself are two completely different "animals".

[felix]

I agree with you Vivi but the nosy majority here has chosen to label any partially "informative" subject a taboo, as primitive as doing so may be; while I do see the point when such information reveals the entire apple, the restrctions have been blown way over proportions and people are getting way over their heads when they rant about it.

Sorry but these policies will stay, and there's nothing you, me or anyone else can do about it.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

Wouldn't it be easier to just create a content disclaimer such as "Any post found in this forum, may contain spoilers and content you may find objectionable. Therefore, you will read any post here AT YOUR OWN RISK! " as seen

Labeling the whole forum as one big spoiler strikes me as something quite silly.

Where would anime only fans go?

Manga and games already have their threads, so why give the boot to everyone else that doesn't follow these? As it stands, it would be easier for manga readers and gamers to be more careful in their posts outside the corresponding threads.

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

Also, why does it matter if someone "spoils" a show for someone else, I myself am not affected by "spoilers"? After all reading about some event in a show and SEEING the event yourself are two completely different "animals".

It's your opinion and I respect it. At the same time, I totally disagree with it.

Seeing how the story unfolds and develops, is the be all end all of a lot of shows out there (not all, btw). Someone spoiling something important beforehand simply kills a lot of the fun for people that are only interested in the anime version of the show at hand.

If people want to talk about the manga or game related to a show, they can always do it in the corresponding threads.

[relentlessflame]

Well, I think the whole thing is pretty simple, really. I'm another one who doesn't really mind being spoiled that much (unless it's some massive plot twist that should be kept secret). That being said, you can never be "unspoiled" -- once a show is ruined for you, there's no turning back. So, it's easier for those of us who want to be spoiled to go through a bit of extra effort than than to risk ruining it for people who want the anime to surprise them at every twist and turn. It probably sounds trite, but this really is one of those "for the greater good" things. A minor inconvenience for some, but it allows us to host a larger, more diverse community. Life is full of these sorts of compromises.

And, to be clear, spoilers are allowed on these boards, but, as Daniel E. said, they have to be in the proper places. If you want to talk about things that happen in the manga, do it in the manga thread. It's not hard. The idea is that people should be allowed to carry on a conversation with people with their same level of exposure to the property. And if you know something that other viewers don't because you've spoiled yourself, you're not doing the less-exposed any favours by telling them what happens next. They're not going to be "blessed" by your spoilers, just because you really really want to talk about it. That being said, I can totally relate to the frustration, as someone who sometimes is more-or-less fluent in the source material for the some of these shows.

Anyway, implementation details not withstanding (the policy itself is a "living document" that's always subject to review and change based on everyone's feedback), the idea of having some sort of spoiler policy is, as Cats said, pretty much unavoidable. And I personally prefer to have something that's pretty clear (even if it is a bit on the harsh side), rather than something vague and nebulous that results in too many judgement calls. So not saying that the policy's perfect, but it's the best we've got right now, subject to new ideas that everyone will find agreeable. Putting a giant sign that says "by coming here, you agree that you could have shows ruined for you at any time" really isn't feasible, even if that wouldn't bother you (or possibly me) all that much. (And, as an aside, pretty much all the mods and admins have had to build up an "immunity" to spoilers as we review all the reported posts that contain the spoiler in plain text... )

[felix]

You say that, and yet you make the objective to keep anyone wishing to discuss things in a non-episodic way of thinking out, instead of simply preventing people who can get spoiled from being spoiled. As if, people who read the source material and are a large part of the target audience (in most cases) are strictly inferior to first time watchers; most of which just care to be "surprised" (whatever that means) by episodic events rather then a constructive opinion on the larger picture.

It's pretty easy for some of us to see it as censorship when you think about how it works.
But I'm sure you don't deny it to be that anyway...

And, to be clear, spoilers are allowed on these boards, but, as Daniel E. said, they have to be in the proper places. If you want to talk about things that happen in the manga, do it in the manga thread. It's not hard. The idea is that people should be allowed to carry on a conversation with people with their same level of exposure to the property. And if you know something that other viewers don't because you've spoiled yourself, you're not doing the less-exposed any favours by telling them what happens next. They're not going to be "blessed" by your spoilers, just because you really reallywant to talk about it. That being said, I can totally relate to the frustration, as someone who sometimes is more-or-less fluent in the source material for the some of these shows.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
Because I liked the manga for a certain anime, if I want to talk about it and the anime I would go post in (of all places) the manga/novel thread? Or, god forbid, create a thread in the Manga subforum for the sake of nothing more then discussing the anime?!

Maybe I just think differently the problem, an analogy: I have a thread Plants and a thread, let's just say, Grass. I make a post talking about grass. Because I'm not a complete stranger to biology I also use terms and make speculations and affirmations based on plants, but in the end my post is still not doing anything more other then talking about grass. According to you my post should go in Plants.

the policy itself is a "living document" that's always subject to review and change based on everyone's feedback

policy = favor some and defavor others
No matter how much the sympathy or commotion for the policy to be implemented you should try to keep a more neutral stand and take more consideration on the options you give when writing some other future policy. In this one at least you've taken the anime-only watchers side and their solutions to theirs and the world's problems. I can't help but read it as "for the good of anime-only watchers" rather then "for the good of everyone".

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Cats

It's pretty easy for some of us to see it as censorship when you think about how it works.
But I'm sure you don't deny it to be that anyway...

To call it censorship is a bit alarmist. You're still allowed to talk about these things and say it, it's just requested that you use spoiler tags and/or discuss such spoilers in the appropriate place. We're not debating civil liberties and "free speech zones," this is simply a matter of allowing everyone - both people who know the story and those who don't - to hold discussions as they like and with others like them, all in one place. Just as you have "no trucks in the left lane" on roads, there are similar designations for spoilers.

Originally Posted by Cats

Maybe I just think differently the problem, an analogy: I have a thread Plants and a thread, let's just say, Grass. I make a post talking about grass. Because I'm not a complete stranger to biology I also use terms and make speculations and affirmations based on plants, but in the end my post is still not doing anything more other then talking about grass. According to you my post should go in Plants.

Thankfully the use of biology terminology does not hinder others' enjoyment of grass. Stories (anime/manga) are a different issue.

Originally Posted by Cats

I can't help but read it as "for the good of anime-only watchers" rather then "for the good of everyone".

Technically this also protects manga readers who aren't as far along as others. I don't think there's a discrimination factor.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Cats

Correct me if I'm wrong...
Because I liked the manga for a certain anime, if I want to talk about it and the anime I would go post in (of all places) the manga/novel thread? Or, god forbid, create a thread in the Manga subforum for the sake of nothing more then discussing the anime?!

Well, I for once, cannot understand your position here.

As relentlessflame already said, there's no censorship involved in controlling spoilers. You are still free to talk about whatever you want........ about whatever you want in the corresponiding threads, of course.

-Manga content (not yet shown in anime form) goes in manga threads.
-Game content (not yet shown in anime form) goes in game threads.

I personally don't mind if people want to comment about the changes/differences between these and their animes counterparts. If all these are up to the latest anime episode, then I don't see a problem here.

Oh, and I also believe that RAW watchers are free to talk about the latest episode in anime threads. In that case, is everyone else's fault for checking the thread without wacthing the latest episode.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Cats

I can't help but read it as "for the good of anime-only watchers" rather then "for the good of everyone".

Well, even if I do accept this argument (which I don't think is quite right or fair), my answer would still be "so what?" Rules exist to protect those who would have the most to lose if the rule was broken and, quite simply, anime-only viewers have the most to lose by being spoiled. I don't think it's unreasonable for you and I to be inconvenienced for their benefit, because above all, I don't want to ruin anyone else's enjoyment of anime. That being said, I really don't see it as a big inconvenience -- if there's something you want to discuss but can't find the right place for it, feel free to post the topic, and we'll find a place. No one's trying to quash discussion, just making sure that people know what they're getting into and are able to make a choice.

I admit that there are some circumstances that aren't handled well given the layout of the forums right now, especially for series that don't have subforums. This does make for some weird workarounds that aren't perfect (like discussing the anime in a manga thread because you're talking about things that will happen in the anime's future). It's a compromise that isn't perfect. But the premise really is to slightly inconvenience "those who know" to protect the interests of "those who don't". No, it isn't perfectly equitable, but that's the nature of this problem: the exposure to the property isn't equitable, but we all need to co-exist.

"For the good of everyone" doesn't mean that everyone finds it good. That'd be totally impossible. The hope, though, is to find a compromise that everyone can at least live with. Nothing's perfect.

[KholdStare]

Well see, here's my thoughts on many of the posts:

First of all, this isn't an encyclopedia, so you shouldn't have the "oh well, read at your own risk" attitude. I support the strict spoiler policy, and of course, put it in a spoiler tag and mark it accordingly. I have adjusted to be a "don't open every spoiler tag you see" person, and many of you should as well.

The "why should it matter if someone gets spoiled" attitude is quite ridiculous in my opinion. Even if you don't mind, that doesn't mean others think the same as you. I don't want to be watching a series I really enjoy to find an offensive post saying how my favorite character at the moment will die. Of course, the only time I know of where spoilers under spoiler tags are not even allowed is posting manga/novel/game spoilers in anime threads, so if you want to post a spoiler, does it really hurt you to type [spoiler][/spoiler]?

And finally, I just want to remind people (since it still happens to me) that not all spoilers are seen as spoilers to those who don't know the reference. For example, if I post this quote:

But I don't want to rest! Not yet. I'm scared! I don't want to die! Just a little more, I want to live just a little more... I want to live...

Then, the person who doesn't know this quote would have no clue what I'm talking about. If someone posts after me screaming out, "SPOILER! WHY DID YOU POST THE QUOTE ABOUT _____ DYING!!!," then it will really become a spoiler. It happens so often everywhere and it really annoys me.

[Kakashi]

The spoiler policy seems fair enough. Problem being that most users who do break these rules are unlikely to read them in the first place. That's the puzzle. I do have one question. Sometimes spoilers happen to be in an actual avatar or GIF. Like today a user had a GIF of:

Spoiler for Code Geass R2:

Karen beating up Suzaku, a suprise attack.

Not having watched R2 yet, this might ruin the element of suprise while watching. It's probably nothing major, but what's the policy for such situations?

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

The spoiler policy seems fair enough. Problem being that most users who do break these rules are unlikely to read them in the first place. That's the puzzle. I do have one question. Sometimes spoilers happen to be in an actual avatar or GIF. Like today a user had a GIF of:

Spoiler for Code Geass R2:

Karen beating up Suzaku, a suprise attack.

Not having watched R2 yet, this might ruin the element of suprise while watching. It's probably nothing major, but what's the policy for such situations?

Sorry, but the situation is'nt very helpful to those who choose not to watch the anime. the policy says as long as it has been relased in raw form, its free to use. polite usage is to place it in a spoiler until it has been subbed. Unless you are asking for the rule to be changed, in which case ignore this.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

It's probably nothing major, but what's the policy for such situations?

Allowed. If it were to be otherwise every avatar on the forum would have to be removed on that basis since most portray some sort of event.

The only situation I recall is when a signature displays so much information or is such a huge hint to future character developement that it's outlawed. (and I remember a Haruhi signature being so) Otherwise by being late the spoiler policies do not protect you.

If you do not wish to be spoiled by avatars or signatures simply disable* them.

* CP > Edit Options > Thread Display Options > Visable Post Elements

[Vivio Testarossa]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, I think the whole thing is pretty simple, really. I'm another one who doesn't really mind being spoiled that much (unless it's some massive plot twist that should be kept secret). That being said, you can never be "unspoiled" -- once a show is ruined for you, there's no turning back. So, it's easier for those of us who want to be spoiled to go through a bit of extra effort than than to risk ruining it for people who want the anime to surprise them at every twist and turn. It probably sounds trite, but this really is one of those "for the greater good" things. A minor inconvenience for some, but it allows us to host a larger, more diverse community. Life is full of these sorts of compromises.

And, to be clear, spoilers are allowed on these boards, but, as Daniel E. said, they have to be in the proper places. If you want to talk about things that happen in the manga, do it in the manga thread. It's not hard. The idea is that people should be allowed to carry on a conversation with people with their same level of exposure to the property. And if you know something that other viewers don't because you've spoiled yourself, you're not doing the less-exposed any favours by telling them what happens next. They're not going to be "blessed" by your spoilers, just because you really really want to talk about it. That being said, I can totally relate to the frustration, as someone who sometimes is more-or-less fluent in the source material for the some of these shows.

Anyway, implementation details not withstanding (the policy itself is a "living document" that's always subject to review and change based on everyone's feedback), the idea of having some sort of spoiler policy is, as Cats said, pretty much unavoidable. And I personally prefer to have something that's pretty clear (even if it is a bit on the harsh side), rather than something vague and nebulous that results in too many judgement calls. So not saying that the policy's perfect, but it's the best we've got right now, subject to new ideas that everyone will find agreeable. Putting a giant sign that says "by coming here, you agree that you could have shows ruined for you at any time" really isn't feasible, even if that wouldn't bother you (or possibly me) all that much. (And, as an aside, pretty much all the mods and admins have had to build up an "immunity" to spoilers as we review all the reported posts that contain the spoiler in plain text... )

Why exactly is is so important to "protect" those "who don't know" from "spoilers"? I don't recall them ASKING to be protected, from being "spoiled"?

What happens when one mod says post X is a spoiler (because what constitutes a "spoiler" is subjective, not objective), and anther says post X isn't a spoiler? Since it doesn't say how this is to be resolved as such...
Moderator A bans/delete UserX/PostX
Moderator B unbans/undeletes UserX/PostX
Moderator A bans/deletes UserX/PostX
Moderator B unbans/undeletes UserX/PostX
...

or

Moderator A bans/delete UserX/PostX
Moderator B unbans/undeletes UserX/PostX
Moderator C bans/deletes UserX/PostX
Moderator D unbans/undeletes UserX/PostX
...

Also what prevents someone who has only watched up to episode 5 of AnimeX from going into a thread for episode 9, and clicking "Report" on EVERY post?

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

snip

i would assume the mods would discuss and decide together what happens in a dispute, or they have some sort of hierarchy so a senior mod has final say. One of those two.

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

Also what prevents someone who has only watched up to episode 5 of AnimeX from going into a thread for episode 9, and clicking "Report" on EVERY post?

The definition of spoiler on this board has a very clear definition. It is something that has not happened in the raw of the anime series. It doesnt matter if a person has seen the ep or not. And while it is polite not to spoil until a sub is released, it is technically not breaking the law, if i am not mistaken.

[NightWish]

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

What happens when one mod says post X is a spoiler (because what constitutes a "spoiler" is subjective, not objective), and anther says post X isn't a spoiler?

When the matter is subjective (I do not believe that is always so, as our spoiler policy has been tightened to be less ambiguous) the person dealing with it makes a judgement call. This is no different from any moderator action. Generally the staff trust each other's judgement; that is partly why they are nominated as staff.

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

i would assume the mods would discuss and decide together what happens in a dispute

Pretty much. If there is a disagreement, it happens occasionally and not just on the subject of spoilers, the matter is discussed and we come to an agreement. It can take a long time. Pretty standard approach to conflict resolution I would say.

Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa

Also what prevents someone who has only watched up to episode 5 of AnimeX from going into a thread for episode 9, and clicking "Report" on EVERY post?

Common sense? We're unlikely to respond favourably to such an act. If they do it out of stupidity, rather than malice, the warning they receive will put them straight.

Incidentally, the forum software allows us to keep a record of which moderator did what, so the chance of a moderator undoing or re-doing something, as per your example, is very unlikely. In the past two of us have tried to deal with the same report, but we've established protocols to avoid that now so it happens very infrequently. As far as I'm aware, to date it has not been because of a disagreement in how the report should be handled, only a matter of timing.