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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 376 64.05%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 86 14.65%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 45 7.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 3.41%
6 out of 10 : Average 15 2.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 4 0.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 0.34%
3 out of 10 : Bad 6 1.02%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.34%
1 out of 10 : Painful 31 5.28%
Voters: 587. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-06, 12:13   Link #1461
bladeofdarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingva View Post
The most interesting part of the episode is Lelouch's and Suzaku's show on tv.
People reactions:
Kallen's interst went to Suzaku(not Lelouch)(Suzaku stole her position as the knight of Zero)
Gino's interest went to Lelouch(not Suzaku)(Lelouch made Suzaku smile)
Kaguya's interest went to both Suzaku and Lelouch.(They both are in higher and better position to help Japan)
kallen - interst in both suzaku and lulu and why the hell are they working together (since she was there to see them split as well as being the only one of the OOBK to know that they were friends turned enemies)
gino- showed interst before suzaku showed up so we dont know his response to that
kaguya - knew both lulu and suzaku as kids
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:28   Link #1462
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Yeah, I am pretty sure Bismark was mocking Schneizel when he said that. Because the first thing I thought when I saw Schneizel's face after Bismark said that was him thinking "Fuck you Bismark..."

I agree completely with morbosfist assessment. It was clear what they were planning when you listen to them talk. There would be no individuality and everyone would become one. That is what would have happened.
Ok Orga but what did he mean by being a leader? If we have no free will, if we all have the same feelings and beliefs, if we are just going to be robots of one universal will, then why would we need a leader? Also, being drones does not correlate to Charles' vision of people becoming their "true self" but this tang ending would be the opposite of that since they become someone else to conform. Yeah Bismark had a hint of sarcasm but being drones with one personality doesn't correlate with anything that Charles or Marianne wanted. Seeing as their is still politics means that there is a hint of individuality and free will, just that governments can't hide anything from the people they rule. Also Marianne says that Suzaku can talk to Euphie and Nunally again not that they would become and share the same personalities with them. That atleast means that they retain their own personalities at some level. I know people want Charles and Marianne to be the bad guy to justify what Lelouch did and maybe Lelouch was right to do what he did but I think this tang ending people interpreted as the end result of Ragnarok was misinterpreted.
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:34   Link #1463
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Ok Orga but what did he mean by being a leader? If we have no free will, if we all have the same feelings and beliefs, if we are just going to be robots of one universal will, then why would we need a leader? Also, being drones does not correlate to Charles' vision of people becoming their true self. Yeah Bismark had a hint of sarcasm but being drones with one personality doesn't correlate with anything that Charles or Marianne wanted. Seeing as their is still politics means that there is a hint of individuality and free will, just that governments can't hide anything from the people they rule. I know people want Charles and Marianne to be the bad guy to justify what Lelouch did but I just don't see it.
Charles says in 15 that there is only one person, and there would be only one person if his plan had gone through. Charles and Marianne wanted a world where no one would be able to hide who they really are, and this required breaking the masks "God" creates for that purpose. And again, politics in the new world would not mean the same thing, so it wouldn't be politics.

There would be no individuality in Charles and Marianne's world, because the ability to distinguish the memories of one person from those of another would be forever lost. Everyone would be the same person.
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:43   Link #1464
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Charles says in 15 that there is only one person, and there would be only one person if his plan had gone through. Charles and Marianne wanted a world where no one would be able to hide who they really are, and this required breaking the masks "God" creates for that purpose. And again, politics in the new world would not mean the same thing, so it wouldn't be politics.

There would be no individuality in Charles and Marianne's world, because the ability to distinguish the memories of one person from those of another would be forever lost. Everyone would be the same person.
Charles never said there would be only one person he said we would all become one but that doesn't necessarily mean that we all share the same personality. Memories don't dictate a person's free will. An amnesiac doesn't even have his memories or know who he or she was but that doesn't mean that it prevents him from choosing his own path and being his true self.
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:48   Link #1465
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Charles never said there would be only one person he said we would all become one but that doesn't necessarily mean that we all share the same personality. Memories don't dictate a person's free will. An amnesiac doesn't even have his memories or know who he or she was but that doesn't mean that it prevents him from choosing his own path and being his true self.
Arguing semantics. Everyone becoming one is the same as there being only one person, just spread out over many bodies.

An amnesiac cannot remember, but his memories are still his own. That person can still act of their own accord. When a person can't distinguish their memories from those of any other, then free will disappears, because their actions are influenced by the group mind.
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:53   Link #1466
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Arguing semantics. Everyone becoming one is the same as there being only one person, just spread out over many bodies.

An amnesiac cannot remember, but his memories are still his own. That person can still act of their own accord. When a person can't distinguish their memories from those of any other, then free will disappears, because their actions are influenced by the group mind.
Memories have nothing to do with free will. Now if Charles said everyone had the same feelings then you would have a point but he never said that. Anyways, you know my interpretation of it and I backed it up. Maybe if you give me the exact quotes or dialogue of what they said. I'll try to look it up but I still stand by my assessment.
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Old 2008-09-06, 13:59   Link #1467
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Memories have nothing to do with free will. Now if Charles said everyone had the same feelings then you would have a point but he never said that. Anyways, you know my interpretation of it and I backed it up. Maybe if you give me the exact quotes or dialogue of what they said. I'll try to look it up but I still stand by my assessment.
He doesn't say it, but C.C. does. Listen to the whole thing. C's World is the combination of heart and memory, a transcendent will divided by the masks it gives humans. With that gone, people would no longer be able to isolate themselves from others. Everyone would know and feel all that everyone else does. Humanity would reflect C's World, an unchanging place where no one does anything. Lelouch had to Geass/wish to it just to get it to act against its own destruction.
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Old 2008-09-06, 14:45   Link #1468
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He doesn't say it, but C.C. does. Listen to the whole thing. C's World is the combination of heart and memory, a transcendent will divided by the masks it gives humans. With that gone, people would no longer be able to isolate themselves from others. Everyone would know and feel all that everyone else does. Humanity would reflect C's World, an unchanging place where no one does anything. Lelouch had to Geass/wish to it just to get it to act against its own destruction.
Ok lets say if we all merged minds. I feel really strongly about my argument. Maybe because a majority feels the same way but the somewhere in the back of my brain, I feel for your argument as well. Wouldn't it be possible that I can be converted through logic or reasoning and choose against the strong feelings I have for my own argument and side with your opinion. Thus free will is still in tact.
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Old 2008-09-06, 16:02   Link #1469
Jestersage
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Ok lets say if we all merged minds. I feel really strongly about my argument. Maybe because a majority feels the same way but the somewhere in the back of my brain, I feel for your argument as well. Wouldn't it be possible that I can be converted through logic or reasoning and choose against the strong feelings I have for my own argument and side with your opinion. Thus free will is still in tact.
But what influent your free will, then? Yourself, your own memory, or God himself (in the traditional Christian sense)? If we use computer model, then the difference in computer, if all OS and whatnot are same, is only the performance.

It should be understand that memory and soul (of how we act) is actually still a heavily debated metaphysical question, and you could probably still write a master thesis on it.
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Old 2008-09-06, 17:22   Link #1470
Carlos45
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So the concensus is? People with the potential to use the geass can see the sigil, and those without can't?

That being said there's probably for the black knights and schnizel to prove that lelouch geassed the whole court. Orange isn't going to ungeass the court either. We all know that he's on lelouche's side. OH!! We've totally forgotten that Orange is still around and now that lelouch has phenomenal comic power and Sky crane(suzaku) and Orange, and soon to be Kallen.... He's unstoppable! Not to mension that orange can ungeass anyone that has been geassed so that lelouch can regeass them!
I think the show will have a little twist in orange's character. He joined Lelouch's side, because he wanted to protect him, since he couldn't do it to lelouch's mum (Correct me if am wrong). Once he finds out that she wasn't dead, and Lelouch killed her. I would think that he would turn against him.
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Old 2008-09-06, 17:32   Link #1471
Dream_Traveller
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Not if Lelouch tells him of what she really was.
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Old 2008-09-06, 17:40   Link #1472
Carlos45
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Not if Lelouch tells him of what she really was.
Guess we gotta wait and see by tomorrow
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Old 2008-09-06, 17:40   Link #1473
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Not if Lelouch tells him of what she really was.
Orange-kun has no values other than loyalty. Regardless of how negative a light Lelouch casts on Marianne, Orange-kun won't change. That said, I don't think Lelouch will be dumb enough to mention he killed Marianne.
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Old 2008-09-06, 17:45   Link #1474
Dream_Traveller
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Well, his loyalty's what defines him.
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:24   Link #1475
Discerptor
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And that loyalty is to Empress Marianne.
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:28   Link #1476
Worriors1
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And that loyalty is to Empress Marianne.
Wait until he learns what she did. Lelouch is going to be like;

"By the way, Orange, you should know that my mom was a crazy, selfish, son of a gun. You're loyalty to her is worthless, soooo.."
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:30   Link #1477
Dream_Traveller
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'She wanted to conspire with my dad so that the world would become one mentality devoid of free will and such. So, yeah. Wasted loyalty.'
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:34   Link #1478
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Ok lets say if we all merged minds. I feel really strongly about my argument. Maybe because a majority feels the same way but the somewhere in the back of my brain, I feel for your argument as well. Wouldn't it be possible that I can be converted through logic or reasoning and choose against the strong feelings I have for my own argument and side with your opinion. Thus free will is still in tact.
This wouldn't be possible. You'd be incapable of thinking for yourself, because everyone is thinking as one. Logic and reason mean nothing when everyone understands everyone. Logic and reason are concepts of uncertainty. You cannot reason with someone who already knows everything you know, and logic is universal when everyone thinks the same. Free will simply doesn't exist in a system where every humans shares their consciousness, because individual identity is lost.
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:48   Link #1479
amjzz
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I wonder which will be rivalz, milly and everyone that knew lelouch reaction after discover that lelouch now is the emperor of britannia and was part of the royal family....

And now that suzaku is the knight of zero he should be able to be in charge of area 11 and complete his mission of change things from inside...
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Old 2008-09-06, 18:51   Link #1480
morbosfist
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And now that suzaku is the knight of zero he should be able to be in charge of area 11 and complete his mission of change things from inside...
Suzaku's not going to get to run Area 11. That would be political suicide for Lelouch. If it isn't already free, Lelouch will give it up.
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