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Old 2008-09-22, 05:29   Link #881
Nya~n
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Darn, I seem to have load of question around lately.

What makes the distinction between Ancient Belka system and Modern Belka system? What is the thing that makes them significant enough to be classified slightly differently from each other?
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Old 2008-09-22, 05:39   Link #882
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That's why this thread exists.

I'm not too sure if there was any canon datafax about this, but from what we've gathered so far, it is because the Modern Belka system is a Midchilda emulation of an old, dying but niche-use school of magic, which in this case, is the Ancient Belka system.

As a side note, with the recent Jail incident, I believe tactical analysts will think more favorably of Belka auxiliaries, since the Belka emphasis on personal strength made them more resistant to the "cheap" AMF.
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Old 2008-09-22, 08:07   Link #883
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So... Modern Belka is like Ancient Belka with Mid-Childan buffs?
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Old 2008-09-22, 08:15   Link #884
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Something like that.

The only Ancient Belka users we've seen in action (as in "in pitched combat", not standing around casting support magic like Shamal) are Zest, Signum, and Vita, and every magic attack that we've seen from these guys are either of the physical attack kind (melee and solid matter attacks like Vita's Swallow Fliers) or make use of a mana conversion affinity (Signum's and Agito's flame techniques). This says to me (keeping in mind the limited amount of data we have to draw from) that the Ancient Belka system makes use of solid pseudomatter rounds and physical damage as opposed to the Mid system's emphasis on magic damage and energy-based attacks.

The Modern Belka system, as a hybrid of these two systems, makes use of the Belkan focus on melee combat while using the Mid system's energy attacks, which are more suited for the TSAB's apparent preferences for knock-outs instead of kills in combat.

This is only a personal theory of mine and has no official basis in canon.
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Old 2008-09-22, 11:51   Link #885
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You forgot Zafira! Everyone forgets Zafira... ;_;

Which brings up a good question, really... who can cast what? Who uses what?

Our "confirmed" users of Ancient Belkan style are the four knights, Zest, and Hayate, though if we accept that Hayate inherited all the spells from Rein I, that gives her a good amount of Mid-type magic too (including Nanoha's and Fate's stuff, for that matter.)

We know both Subaru and Elio are Neo Belkans. (Subaru more so than Elio; she's actively gone to the trouble of adding Mid-type energy attacks, and uses 'em too. Plus she has that IS, which is a completely different form of magic/technology. So in a way, she's amazingly versatile/dangerous for her rank.) I -think- Schach is a Neo Belkan, but can't remember for sure.

What about everyone else? Is there anyone who we've identified as not "standard Mid"? Vivio, for one, through her "data collection" ability; she can grab some of Nanoha's spells, but she's not merely a user of Ancient Belkan, she's literally a clone of an Ancient Belkan! Who else? Acous? Do the two lil' summoners get their own category, or is that just Mid with benefits?
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Old 2008-09-22, 11:59   Link #886
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Acous was said to be a user I believe with a Rare Skill (I think that's linked to how he can 'extract' information from people like what he was preparing to do to Uno after he bound her). Wasn't Carim also stated as being a user of Ancient Belkan with her Rare Skill of prophecy (which was given in Ancient Belkan)?

I think Summoners aren't considered 'standard Mid' like Caro and Lutecia since their magic arrays are of a completely different design.
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Old 2008-09-22, 13:02   Link #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
What about everyone else? Is there anyone who we've identified as not "standard Mid"? Vivio, for one, through her "data collection" ability; she can grab some of Nanoha's spells, but she's not merely a user of Ancient Belkan, she's literally a clone of an Ancient Belkan! Who else? Acous? Do the two lil' summoners get their own category, or is that just Mid with benefits?
Considering Mid doesn't use the cartridge system, we have Nanoha, Fate and Teana spearheading the group that doesn't use Standard Mid.

In Vivio's case, she absorbs the knowledge of spells from the people around her, but she only seems to use the Belkan ones, or converts the Mid spells she does use into Belkan types.
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Old 2008-09-22, 18:39   Link #888
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Not to mention anyone with a rifle device, thus making Vice count as non-standard Mid.

Hmm I could use this for background... ^_^
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Old 2008-09-24, 18:00   Link #889
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Considering Mid doesn't use the cartridge system, we have Nanoha, Fate and Teana spearheading the group that doesn't use Standard Mid.
I wouldn't be so sure about that - after all a cartridge is little besides compressed magical energy; i don't see why that can't be used with any magic style without any strings attached - it is merely a boost after all. (And while its true they are uncommon, just because one decides to use it wouldn't mutate his magic style in to something in need of a different label - it amplifies what you have, not turns it in to something else).
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Old 2008-09-24, 18:51   Link #890
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Now does anyone have the DVD article about cartridges translated...?
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Old 2008-09-25, 02:00   Link #891
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I wouldn't be so sure about that - after all a cartridge is little besides compressed magical energy; i don't see why that can't be used with any magic style without any strings attached - it is merely a boost after all. (And while its true they are uncommon, just because one decides to use it wouldn't mutate his magic style in to something in need of a different label - it amplifies what you have, not turns it in to something else).
It's not standard for intelligent devices I think. It doesn't appear any of the Grunts used them either on their Storage devices. I think it's mainly a Belkan thing. But it's something Mid HAS (since it has a serial number and everything) it's just not used very often?
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Old 2008-09-25, 02:25   Link #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about that - after all a cartridge is little besides compressed magical energy; i don't see why that can't be used with any magic style without any strings attached - it is merely a boost after all. (And while its true they are uncommon, just because one decides to use it wouldn't mutate his magic style in to something in need of a different label - it amplifies what you have, not turns it in to something else).
Yes, Mid can use the cartridge system, but its not standard utility. In A's Chrono notes the cartridge system to be something that signifies the Belkan magic style, and this is supported by Teana, who had to build her own device to be able to use the cartridge system as a Mid mage. There simply aren't any Mid-style cartridge devices standardly available.
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Old 2008-09-25, 12:14   Link #893
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Here's an interesting question.

How close are Intelligent Devices to, well, people? They're sentient, if not all that loquacious. You could assume that Mid doesn't put cartridge systems in Intelligent Devices normally because, well, it's dangerous, and they could get hurt or killed, the same way that Mid doesn't put cyborg systems in people.

Mind you, just like Subaru gets along just fine as a cyborg, RH and Bardiche and the cartridge-fueled devices of the forwards get along just fine. Maybe "modern" Intelligent Devices are just tougher and more redundant, and what used to be dangerous isn't much of a risk anymore?

We don't see any "old" Intelligent Devices, though. Oh, sure, the Knights' weapons are older'n dirt, but they're still paired with their users, and all the forwards have new custom-crafted devices. But under a scenario where an Intelligent Device was considered an independent, sentient entity, you'd expect that there would be "veteran" Devices; in fact, it would be a really good idea to pair rookie mages with old and canny Devices. But if this ever happens, we don't see it.

(Possible exception: Raising Heart, whose origins aren't well-explained. It's obvious near the beginning of S1 that RH is doing a lot of the driving and Nanoha's just giving it oomph, until she figures out what she's doing. On the other hand, this also gives a good reason not to do this; while RH and Nanoha together had explosive power, they happily used this power until Nanoha broke. So it's possible that pairing "rookie" devices with rookies makes it easier to bring them up slowly...)
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Old 2008-09-25, 12:26   Link #894
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I would say very close. They can develop personalities and heck, even show concern and worry about their human partners to encourage and offer support! All that's lacking is a physical body to interact with the environment.
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Old 2008-09-25, 18:20   Link #895
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Yeah Intelligent Devices are kind of evolving computers. They don't seem to start off TOO different from a normal Storage Device but they seem to slowly grow an attachment to their master (much like a human grows closer to someone they know).

Really are amazing little things...
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Old 2008-09-25, 19:30   Link #896
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...not to mention scary when you remember HAL.

Maybe that's why massproduction devices are Storage types. The lack of an advanced AI means lower maintenance and the ability to be reassigned when the mage leaves service means that there will be less compatibility troubles, attachment issues and will save the defence Budget. This, on top of the fact that Intel devices aren't for everyone.
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Old 2008-09-26, 19:04   Link #897
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Question is Reinforce I/II and Agito considered part of the "Wolkenritter" (Cloud Riders)?
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Old 2008-09-26, 21:37   Link #898
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Question is Reinforce I/II and Agito considered part of the "Wolkenritter" (Cloud Riders)?
Uhmm... well that's a good question

Agito for sure is Not one, because she wasn't part of the Book of Darkness

Reinforce could be truly a Wolkenritter, Rein 2 probably not, because she appear after the Book of Darkness was turned into the tome of 7 Nights
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Old 2008-09-26, 22:44   Link #899
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I think not. The Wolkenritter or, put in a broader sense, the Guardian Knights System, is the program that protects the Meister of the Tome. Rein I is the Administrative Program that governs the overall functions of the Tome, including the Guardian Knight System. They are separate entities.

In short, the Wolkenritter includes all four Knights but not both Rein I and II.
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Old 2008-09-26, 22:46   Link #900
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Just wanna point out a minor error; I think Rick meant Tome of the Night Sky and not 7 Nights.
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