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View Poll Results: Fate/stay Night Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 170 62.96%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 69 25.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 5.19%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 3.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.74%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.37%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.37%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.74%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-05-24, 20:11   Link #501
Blade_Lord
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That is correct, but...
That's the worst example you can give iamandragon...I feel revolted just reading it.
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Old 2008-05-24, 21:18   Link #502
OceanBlue
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Shirou is still limited by his physical ability. Even if he has the technique to block it, he doesn't have the speed nor the strength required to block Berserker for a prolonged amount of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Type-Moon Wikia
Emiya Shirou can evaluate the idea behind the creation, determine the foundation, reproduce the base material, copy the manufacture, assimilate the experience, reproduce the age; unlike a normal person who does the recreation from the base idea, he will include in the blueprint the material property, the nature and the history of the item.
Emiya manages to slash off Berserker's arm in the game, and does a pretty good job defending himself.

Quote:
The golden sword does not stop and, as if being pulled toward it, slashes through the giant's arm.
Quote:
I hear a gasp.
In front of me is the axe-sword swung like a storm and a defending sword that is being made.

I don't know if I'm desperate, but I'm blocking the attack with the sword in my hand.
Quote:
I made the sword that surpasses Berserker.
But that's all.
As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword--!
Unless we're talking about the anime, not just projection in the T-M universe in general. If we're talking about the anime only, then you're just going to have to accept that it might not make sense.

By the way, I choose All of the above.

Edit: I don't understand the other question Blade, so I can't clarify [And Dragon edited out the example, so I have no idea what's going on.].
Archer's Noble Phantasm doesn't control Archer's body. It's like learning how to paint. You can still paint in the way before you learned how to paint, but you can also use your newfound techniques in painting. But in fights, it becomes a lot more instinctive, and I'm guessing sometimes you automatically use your techniques to defend yourself.
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Old 2008-05-25, 06:08   Link #503
iamandragon
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Edit: I don't understand the other question Blade, so I can't clarify [And Dragon edited out the example, so I have no idea what's going on.].
You wouldn't want to know it...it's pretty sick.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:55   Link #504
Blade_Lord
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Edit: I don't understand the other question Blade, so I can't clarify [And Dragon edited out the example, so I have no idea what's going on.].
I asked whether the NP that archer traced controlled him instead of him using that skill independently.For example if archer used excallibur will his fighting style be the same as Saber or will he use the skill Excalli-beam on the opponent.

Quote:
You wouldn't want to know it...it's pretty sick.
It's very sick...unless your a pervert.

Wonder's how many life will Archer cut if he traced the Excallibur and snipe it at Berserker as broken phantasm.
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Old 2008-09-23, 17:02   Link #505
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Reading through the last page and just thinking about how things were stacked against Archer in this one. Just having a powerful resistance that will negate anything below A rank is tough enough to go against. But toss in the speed and power Berserker had and it was just not a good day for Archer.

Also doing some thinking about which servants Archer would have a good chance against. If he had gone in to fight rather than be sidelined for most of the series and then die after the match against Berserker.

In the end he did a great job considering what he was up against.
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Old 2008-09-23, 17:23   Link #506
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Correction. It negates B rank and below. A B+ rank may harm Berserker's God hand hand after. And Berserker is overpowered. Not only he got 12 lives, those life regenerate.
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Old 2008-09-24, 08:33   Link #507
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
I asked whether the NP that archer traced controlled him instead of him using that skill independently.For example if archer used excallibur will his fighting style be the same as Saber or will he use the skill Excalli-beam on the opponent.
For Archer's case, it'll be a little different. IF Shirou traced excalibur, he would have completely adapted Excalibur's memory and fight the way Saber did. However, since Archer has a lot of fighting experience himself, he will only partially adapt Saber's fighting style in his own fighting style.

Quote:
Wonder's how many life will Archer cut if he traced the Excallibur and snipe it at Berserker as broken phantasm.
Unfortunately, a traced Excalibur will NOT harm Beserker. Note that even though God's Hand says it negates anything B and below, B+ is regarded as 'B'.

A "+" is just used to describe that the Noble Phantasm's power is amongst the top in its fellow ranking, but it is still a 'B' rank Noble Phantasm.

The ranking of Noble Phantasms is not done scientifically, so there is examples like 'An A rank noble phantasm needs at least power output of 1000 mana-particle-per-square-inch-prana-per-density-integrated'. In fact, a weapon that can't even destroy a building can be A ranked while another that can wipe out the entire Spanish Navy is still B ranked. (e.g. Caliburn and Bellemorph)

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Also doing some thinking about which servants Archer would have a good chance against. If he had gone in to fight rather than be sidelined for most of the series and then die after the match against Berserker.
*cough cough* Gilgamesh *cough cough*

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In the end he did a great job considering what he was up against.
Especially wasting my tissues packs.
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Old 2008-09-24, 15:46   Link #508
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Unfortunately, a traced Excalibur will NOT harm Beserker. Note that even though God's Hand says it negates anything B and below, B+ is regarded as 'B'
Ara, did you miss the broken phantasm part? The broken phantasm raise the traced version by 1 rank.

Calliburn is A-rank? That doesn't make sense because Shirou can chop Berserker's arm with a traced version. Which is a B-rank.Now that I think about it the mysterious rank is like luck in battle. Not very useful against skillful opponent but it really saves your life when your up against Gae Bolg. And for the rank, it only be useful against a defensive armament that negates certain rank and below like Godhand.

Quote:
Reading through the last page and just thinking about how things were stacked against Archer in this one. Just having a powerful resistance that will negate anything below A rank is tough enough to go against. But toss in the speed and power Berserker had and it was just not a good day for Archer.

Also doing some thinking about which servants Archer would have a good chance against. If he had gone in to fight rather than be sidelined for most of the series and then die after the match against Berserker.

In the end he did a great job considering what he was up against.
He's up against the Legendary Heracles...outmatched in speed and power. Also he isn't fully recovered from the wound Saber inflicted on him. Finally the fight is in an enclosed mansion, less room for Archer to move around especially against the behemoth giant. Still he do a good job killing Berserker SIX times before he lost. Why the heck does the anime reduce his killing by 1?

"I don't mind holding him off to buy time for you but can I kick his ass?"
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Old 2008-09-24, 18:43   Link #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
He's up against the Legendary Heracles...outmatched in speed and power. Also he isn't fully recovered from the wound Saber inflicted on him. Finally the fight is in an enclosed mansion, less room for Archer to move around especially against the behemoth giant. Still he do a good job killing Berserker SIX times before he lost. Why the heck does the anime reduce his killing by 1?

"I don't mind holding him off to buy time for you but can I kick his ass?"
No doubt the guy is bad ass . Just crazy when you look at how this was stacked against him. Then you toss in the limitations in what will hurt/kill Berserker and yet he still did all that damage. I prefer the game in giving him 6 kills since that just sends the message all the more clearly how well he did.

Even though I knew that winning was very unlikely, couldn't help but hope for it to happen anyways. Can't say anything bad about someone who leaves everything on the table. Just did a great job and ended the fight standing proud while Berserker was down with numerous swords stuck in him .
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
*cough cough* Gilgamesh *cough cough*


Especially wasting my tissues packs.
Somehow would find it fun with Gilgamesh and Archer firing weapons at each other. Or picking the different weapon to counter whatever the other came up with.

Didn't waste any tissues, but the fight definitely reached me.
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Old 2008-09-26, 09:48   Link #510
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Ara, did you miss the broken phantasm part? The broken phantasm raise the traced version by 1 rank.
Unfortunately, Archer's mana capacity only allows him to use broken phantasm OR Excalibur. The physical attack of Excalibur only has a ranking of 'C+'. The A+ Noble Phantasm is the unleashed version of Excalibur, the peak energy point, which I prefer to refer as 'Excali-beam'

Quote:
Calliburn is A-rank? That doesn't make sense because Shirou can chop Berserker's arm with a traced version. Which is a B-rank.Now that I think about it the mysterious rank is like luck in battle. Not very useful against skillful opponent but it really saves your life when your up against Gae Bolg. And for the rank, it only be useful against a defensive armament that negates certain rank and below like Godhand.
My apologies, I have to fix my sentence--traced Caliburn is at least A-ranked.
Think God Hand as a super hard armor and Hercules without it as a glass canon. This might go against your concept that Hercules is very strong himself, but that can explain why he dies so quickly against A ranked Noble Phantasms...

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Even though I knew that winning was very unlikely, couldn't help but hope for it to happen anyways. Can't say anything bad about someone who leaves everything on the table. Just did a great job and ended the fight standing proud while Berserker was down with numerous swords stuck in him .
Well there is a difference of winning and dying in a fight. To me, Archer is win

Quote:
Somehow would find it fun with Gilgamesh and Archer firing weapons at each other. Or picking the different weapon to counter whatever the other came up with.
I remember explaining it many times the Archer>Gilgamesh>Berserker triangle...
:: Archer>Gilgamesh
Because of Unlimited Blade Works, Archer can draw out weapons faster than Gilgamesh. So when fighting, Archer just need to project the exact same Noble Phantasm Gilgamesh takes out from Gate of Babylon AND shoot it at the real copy, having both of them destroy each other, therefore nullifying all Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm. The only weapon Archer can't trace, takes a long time to charge up, in which even Shirou can charge up and slash his arms off.

::Gilgamesh>Berserker
Simply because Gilgamesh has too many A ranked Noble Phantasm, and can shoot them.

Berserker>Archer
Simply because Archer don't have enough Ex ranked Noble Phantasm to trace from, and Broken Phantasm only works once.

And perhaps this is the only way for Archer to beat Berserker...
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Old 2008-09-26, 10:41   Link #511
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Hold on. Okay I understand that Excalibur trace version is B-rank, but Excali-beam is an attack. God hand nullifies noble phantasm and attack of B-rank and below. But A-rank and above is an instant kill.

That's the reason why Nine-lives blade Work can work on Berserker . Even though the sword-axe does not have any rank Shirou's using it as a weapon to execute Nine-lives blade work works on him and kill him 9 times.

Why don't Archer uses it then? He might not use it because of Illyasviel. We know he still care for the girl and using Excali-beam would kill not only Berserker but also Illyasviel who might caught in the blast or die because the whole mansion collapse on her.

Quote:
Because of Unlimited Blade Works, Archer can draw out weapons faster than Gilgamesh. So when fighting, Archer just need to project the exact same Noble Phantasm Gilgamesh takes out from Gate of Babylon AND shoot it at the real copy, having both of them destroy each other, therefore nullifying all Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm.
True but he needed to chant and the chant is long enough for gil to fully charge his Ea and beat the crap out of Archer. Furthermore that is assuming Gilgamesh uses offensive noble phantasm. What if he pull out a shield that is as big as the wall of china to block Archer and start charging Ea after that. Does Archer have any noble phantasm powerful enough to blast through the shield and get to Gilgamesh before it's too late?
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Old 2008-09-27, 00:35   Link #512
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
True but he needed to chant and the chant is long enough for gil to fully charge his Ea and beat the crap out of Archer. Furthermore that is assuming Gilgamesh uses offensive noble phantasm. What if he pull out a shield that is as big as the wall of china to block Archer and start charging Ea after that. Does Archer have any noble phantasm powerful enough to blast through the shield and get to Gilgamesh before it's too late?
Yeah all about getting the time to pull things off. Of course could get Gilgamesh ranting about something and then quietly do the chant . In terms of the second issue couldn't Archer just pull out something like Rho Aias to handle the attack? Obviously the whole nature of this series isn't my expertise and considering it beat the Excalibur beam its power is extremely high.

Maybe the best option is to hope Gilgamesh doesn't pull out the big stuff and thus gives enough time for Archer to get UBW ready. Is possible since I can't see Gilgamesh pulling out something that powerful against from his point of view some nobody. In the end there are a few ways fights can go depending on circumstances.
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Old 2008-09-27, 02:43   Link #513
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Hold on. Okay I understand that Excalibur trace version is B-rank, but Excali-beam is an attack. God hand nullifies noble phantasm and attack of B-rank and below. But A-rank and above is an instant kill.

That's the reason why Nine-lives blade Work can work on Berserker . Even though the sword-axe does not have any rank Shirou's using it as a weapon to execute Nine-lives blade work works on him and kill him 9 times.

Why don't Archer uses it then? He might not use it because of Illyasviel. We know he still care for the girl and using Excali-beam would kill not only Berserker but also Illyasviel who might caught in the blast or die because the whole mansion collapse on her.
Shirou is able to use Nine-Lives because he connected his circuits with Sakuras, which allows him to ply into Berserker's memories indirectly like a true master would do to their servant. Shirou is the only one who has seen Nine-Lives, Archer hasn't. They both need to be able to see a weapon because they can trace a replica.
And because Shirou gave up his justice in order to save Sakura, he would not become Archer.

Quote:
True but he needed to chant and the chant is long enough for gil to fully charge his Ea and beat the crap out of Archer. Furthermore that is assuming Gilgamesh uses offensive noble phantasm. What if he pull out a shield that is as big as the wall of china to block Archer and start charging Ea after that. Does Archer have any noble phantasm powerful enough to blast through the shield and get to Gilgamesh before it's too late?
Rho Aias is what Archer can use against Gilgamesh. Also, even without UBW opened Shirou was already able to match weapon drawing speed with Gilgamesh--well almost. Archer with more experience in tracing definitely would be able do be better than Shirou in nullifying Gilgamesh's attack. UBW was there in order for mana conservation.
As for Gilgamesh pulling out a shield...he lacks the skill to use a shield properly. He is an owner, but never a user of weapons, unlike Archer, who knows how to direct a shield towards an attack to stop/block them.
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Old 2008-09-27, 03:03   Link #514
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Shirou is able to use Nine-Lives because he connected his circuits with Sakuras, which allows him to ply into Berserker's memories indirectly like a true master would do to their servant. Shirou is the only one who has seen Nine-Lives, Archer hasn't. They both need to be able to see a weapon because they can trace a replica.
And because Shirou gave up his justice in order to save Sakura, he would not become Archer.
Err I'm referring to the Excallibur on the third paragraph. Anyway the trace version well is a no go for Archer if he only plan to stab it. But an attack like Excalibeam should be an A-rank.
Because nine-lives can be execute with that slab of stone who can't say that we cannot use Excalibeam with another non-excallibur sword that can fire beams and scorches the Earth.

However this raise a new question. When does Berserker pull off nine lives with that stone-axe? He was insane remember? So unless Illya's take off the mad enhancement at any point allowing Berserker to remember nine lives there's no way Berserker do nine lives.
But then again if he did become sane and can use Nine lives he should be using the bow in the legend that can kill Hydra not that chunk of rocky blade.
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Old 2008-09-27, 11:18   Link #515
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Err I'm referring to the Excallibur on the third paragraph. Anyway the trace version well is a no go for Archer if he only plan to stab it. But an attack like Excalibeam should be an A-rank.
Excalibur's unleash is indeed of 'A+' rank, but the traced version only has a 'B+' rank at best. To achieve A rank, Archer will need to overload it with Broken Phantasm AND unleash, which he does not have enough mana to do so.

Broken Phantasm is nothing as fancy as you're imagining, it's just an act of pouring more mana than the maximum capacity of the Noble Phantasm to cause it to surpass its ordinary state in exchange for its own destruction. Kinda like straining yourself to run at full speed even when your muscle is burning--you tear your muscle. And for a Noble Phantasm that cannot regenerate/heal, its life is over.

Quote:
However this raise a new question. When does Berserker pull off nine lives with that stone-axe? He was insane remember? So unless Illya's take off the mad enhancement at any point allowing Berserker to remember nine lives there's no way Berserker do nine lives.
He did not. For a normal pair of master and servant, the master should be able to read the servant's mind if they pour their effort into it(that's similar to how how servants learn all modern day knowledge--during the summoning ritual all the basic knowledge of living in modern days are poured into servants)
Spoiler for HF spoiler:


Quote:
But then again if he did become sane and can use Nine lives he should be using the bow in the legend that can kill Hydra not that chunk of rocky blade.
Quote:
Because nine-lives can be execute with that slab of stone who can't say that we cannot use Excalibeam with another non-excallibur sword that can fire beams and scorches the Earth.
That 'slab of stone' is not an ordinary slab of stone, it's made from the gravestone of Hercules, which contains lots and lots of mystic in it through history. (in the Nasu-verse, any object with a long history dating back will gain powerful mystical power. For example, an ordinary katana of 800 years history can destroy a barrier constructed by a top-class magician with just a random swing...)

As for using Nine-lives with that slab of stone(okay, it IS stone...) Perhaps Noble Phantasms are mere symbols in which physical shape means nothing--that's the only explanation I can come up with...ask Nasu...
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Old 2008-09-27, 11:44   Link #516
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How can you be sure? Excali-beam is an attack just like Nine lives. Look Shirou use the slab of stone and still is still capable to kill Black Berserker. And that piece of slab stone doesn't have the rank of noble phantasm whatsoever. It only hurts the servant because berserker is the one holding it and swings it around. And the reason why shirou can use that slab of stone and kill the servant because the weapon "memorize" Berserker strength and movement in other words Shirou is a fake berserker right now and so that's why he can still other servant with that slab piece of rock.

If Nine lives attack rank retain despite being executed with legendary bow that kill Hydra in consecutive shots to that traced slab piece of rock used to vanquished a weaker version of Heracles, why not the rank of Excali-beam attack executed with an almost perfect copy(-1 rank version) for the sword?.
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Old 2008-09-28, 00:46   Link #517
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
How can you be sure? Excali-beam is an attack just like Nine lives. Look Shirou use the slab of stone and still is still capable to kill Black Berserker. And that piece of slab stone doesn't have the rank of noble phantasm whatsoever. It only hurts the servant because berserker is the one holding it and swings it around. And the reason why shirou can use that slab of stone and kill the servant because the weapon "memorize" Berserker strength and movement in other words Shirou is a fake berserker right now and so that's why he can still other servant with that slab piece of rock.
It's a little different. Excali-beam is an attack where the user fill up the sword with huge amount of mana, which, when completely filled up, packs all the mana into one single highly-concentrated peak at the tip of the sword allowing the user to swing it out.

Meanwhile, Nine-Lives is more like an enchantment that concentrates mana within an artifact to give it a boost in both mystic and (probably)power.

Think of Nine-Lives as something similar to God Hand--it enchants an object to give it a huge amount of mystic, making it function like a Noble Phantasm, the same thing like the previous Berserker, but only with limitations. (only that slab of stone is compatible instead of light post and fighter jets, or perhaps anything that is related to Hercules is compatible?)

I'm still not too sure about that as the game didn't specify them--I only deduced these with logic and imagination(more of the later). That's why I said "ask Nasu" in the end...

Quote:
If Nine lives attack rank retain despite being executed with legendary bow that kill Hydra in consecutive shots to that traced slab piece of rock used to vanquished a weaker version of Heracles, why not the rank of Excali-beam attack executed with an almost perfect copy(-1 rank version) for the sword?.
Nine-Lives is weaker after traced. Since we don't know the original rank of it, it might just be rank Ex. Also, Black Berserker does not process reviving ability because the darkness consumes and corrupts any mystic. And since the reviving part of God Hand is simply a multilayered revival magic, it got destroyed the moment he's eaten Black. Black Berserker only have one life, if I recall everything correctly.

-Or perhaps Black Berserker lost his tough body...who knows?-

Also, it is impossible for Shirou, who has even less mana than Archer, to unleash Excalibur. Unlike Archer, who has just enough mana to do so, Shirou would drain his mana reserve in the process of filling up the sword(and collapse?).
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Old 2008-09-29, 17:17   Link #518
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Yeah and how does that explain how Dark berserker can move after being hit 8 times at all the vital spot? It's Nine Lives Blade Work, the ultimate technique Heracles can use as a Berserker.
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Old 2008-09-29, 17:58   Link #519
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So Beserker would have been better off as a Saber?
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:00   Link #520
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
So Beserker would have been better off as a Saber?
Might be, might not be. Although I like Yaoi, I'm sure many of you here would not want to experience a Berserker x Shirou pairing...

And since Berserker was forced to be berserker by Illya's family, he didn't have much of a choice.
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