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Old 2008-09-27, 09:28   Link #21
Tiamat's Disciple
Disciple of the Flames
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
I played WOW for a while, from when it was released till around 5 or 6 months ago. But to be honest i grew bored of it.

I spent six months trying other games, including Conan and Warhammer, both of which failed big time for me. To be honest, i found my self back playing Guild War again. It's still one of the best F2P games out there.

Saying that games like Conquer Online have a stronger play base is incorrect, have you actually looked at the converstions that go on in towns in free games? 90% of them are gold sellers offering you the best bargain for gold and power leveling.

They only seem to be more populated because they only have a few servers, usually around 2-5 mark. This has increasing problems, huge amounts of lag, over crowding, game crashing, etc etc.

Thats why i like GW. the towns and cities are all together, so you get all the people, but as soon as you leave you're in you're own instance. No prats running around PKing you, stealing loot, or telling you get lost cause it's their area.
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Old 2008-09-27, 09:43   Link #22
RWBladewing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narzia
I do not agree. It's a terrible change.
Unless you have top end raiding gear, you'll stand no chance against any form of pvp-geared players. And NOT everyone can get in a high end guild, or has the "skill" (or the druid partner) for a 2000+ rating.
Everyone's going to be on equal footing at 80 shortly after the release, there won't be any top end raiding gear or decked out pvp players. Class balance will likely still be an issue but this will be the time when skill has the most relevance, and the people who deserve the gear the most will get it first. Also not all the gear will require a rating that high. Yes, this will be a big hurdle for people to get into PvP once most people have been 80 for a while, but from the tone of the blue posts it sounds like this is mostly a temporary solution, and they will hopefully have a system in place that resolves that by that time.

Quote:
Grinding 3 years long the same 3 (4) boring BG's for several hours a day.. i'd say that's quite an effort.
The current system where grinding for bg gear is actually worthwhile has only been around a year at most. I recognize that doing it is putting time in but I'd like to see skill matter more (and yes I know arena rating does not necessarily equal skill). Here's a link to my pvp warrior's armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ius&n=Galvados

First off, notice the green ring. I find it hilarious that I was able to obtain almost full epic gear wearing a piece of crap like that. Also, ALL of my gear was like that when I replaced it with epics. I went from lv 65 quest greens to almost full epics just by dying repeatedly in bgs. Now, the character is not decked out by any means, but I can still kill anything from fresh 70s to sub-tier 6 raiders without breaking a sweat. And the best part about that is, I am terrible. I have no idea how to play the class whatsoever but I can get epic gear and kill people who actually put effort into their character because I run around and spam hamstring, ms, and execute in bgs for an hour a day. Yes, the system is in place so I take full advantage of it, and yes, I do think it's unfair and incredibly stupid.

Not to mention, a lot of the people who grind bgs don't even put in the amount of "effort" I do, the afk problem is very big and the report system is completely useless. I am sick and tired of these leechers getting rewarded for doing literally absolutely nothing, and the rating requirement stops this. Yes, it is somewhat unfair for people who do play legitimately, but as I said, it sounds like they are looking for a better solution, and I'm more than willing to put up with it in the meantime.

Quote:
Remove the ridiculous RNG Loot then, and replace it with more reliable tokens. In PvP, you can chose the gear you get, why not in PvE?
I agree with this, they at least seem to be moving somewhat in the right direction in this regard.

Quote:
On a side note, i actually enjoyed old school AV. You'd join one, play until bed time. And the next evening the same battle's still going on. Awesome even though it took me a while to get my Ice barbed spear.
Same, in fact this kind of goes back to what I was saying. This version of AV was an epic battle, it was about having fun playing the game and not afk grinding or making losing premades for honor and marks to get free epics.
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:03   Link #23
Jazzrat
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Stormwind is no longer the hub for WoW. Most people operate from Shaatar in TBC and only visits the old worlds to access the auction house.

WoW die out? That's too early to tell, you gotta wait till Woltk comes before you can judge whether this beast is heading for the graveyard even so... for a mmo with 10 million sub, it's going to take a long long time before they need to pull the plug and it wouldnt surprise me if it's Blizzard's new games that nails it's coffin.
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:17   Link #24
Last Sinner
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Starcraft 2 has been delayed over and over, Diablo 3 will be in the works for a long time before it gets released. I doubt they'll can WoW in the near future. It's their main cash cow.
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:22   Link #25
Village Idiot
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Problem with WoW atm is that no one wants to do anything because there's no point with the expansion coming in a couple months making everything you do right now pointless.
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:31   Link #26
Last Sinner
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Not quite. The patch before Lich King has a few tricks. Introducing Inscription and allowing a few new PvP rewards to negate honor being reset. Clever. That's what is going to matter most to the serious players before Lich King.
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Old 2008-09-27, 11:10   Link #27
RWBladewing
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You know what, I actually think this topic is a troll. The OP makes a fairly ridiculous claim, reads like a biased copypasta from some article somewhere, and sounds more like an advertisement than a legitimate complaint about WoW. It was also posted by someone who registered yesterday and has 0 other posts. Hmm....
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Old 2008-09-27, 11:23   Link #28
DragoonKain3
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Whatever the case maybe, it actually spawned an interesting discussion. So while its intentions might not be so pure, at least we got something good out of it.
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Old 2008-09-27, 12:15   Link #29
Xellos
There will be no miracle
 
 
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It's not going to die out. Sure, people may be bored or burned out from Sunwell or grinding honor, but I bet that the majority will be back to at least try WotLK. For all the complaints about WoW, it's still a fairly dynamic game and the dev team is fairly good about responding to player feedback. But I came from playing FFXI back in the old days too. And I'm back to FFXI as well recently. Not so much for the content but just to play with people that I know.
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Old 2008-09-27, 15:40   Link #30
rainnydaiis
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WoW won't die out even if SC2 or D3 makes its way out into the world. Mainly because there are way to many people obsessed over this game and had their soul's taken away by this game. So once your soul has been taken away you never get it returned. So long story short, this game will not die out.
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Old 2008-09-28, 19:56   Link #31
Vinak
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Over 50% of WoW's subscribers are Chinese.
The last I checked it was 5.3 million. the United States Subscriber count is around 2-2.5 million.

Spoiler for heh don't read:
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Old 2008-09-29, 06:46   Link #32
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Quote:
But I will say one thing. Since the WoWyota commercial was voted as the People's Choice for Best Commercial of 2007 (as in best commercial in the US that year from all commercials), I don't think it's dead yet.
What commercial was that? the 4 wheels of fury one?


Hmm I doubt WoW will be dieing for a while yet, even if they have HALF of what they claim to have at the moment, its still four times more then the second running MMO can claim to have.

I've been playing WoW since release day, before that I played EQ for five or six years. I love playing computer games but once I started on MMO's single player games just couldn't hold my attention for nearly as long. I've tried most MMO's that have come out over time, but I just always get drawn back to WoW. Say what you will about WoW it runs a lot smoother overall then most other MMO's. I'm still waiting to try Warhammer though, just can't get it in my town at the moment.

Molten Bore, could have been an instance in Everyquest. But I will admit the first time I heard "Behold Ragnaros the Firelord, he who was ancient when this world was young. Bow before him mortals, bow before your ending" followed by the booming baritone of "TOO SOON! YOU HAVE AWAKENED ME TO SOON, EXECUTUS..." (I won't recite the rest, but I could) I will admit I was thoroughly impressed, and that speech till this day remains one of my most enjoyable gaming experiences. For the rest of the instances, BWL become my guilds fallback-lets-make-money-while-we-raid instance. AQ, was good but it was a bit of a whore with Australian pings on the Emperors, and C'thun was an awesome encounter. Naxx, yes, has been the best instance Blizzard has released in the game as of yet.

BC fixed a lot of problems, but it also caused a lot. It made hybrids and off-specs a lot more raid friendly, but it didn't quite achieve the goal it set out to do. But it promoted raid stacking to the ninth degree in the end-game (6 shaman seriously, wtf). As for arena's a lot of people enjoy that and I will freely admit its not my cup of tea, but its popularity really can't be denied. As for lore in TBC, I swear they took parts of it out the back and beat it to death with a baseball bat, the immersion didn't quite seem to be there. Overall TBC didn't really, shine Outland felt... dull. There were some pretty good raid encounters though, Illidan was a lot of fun for example.

WOTLK, I've got some hopes for it, I've been lucky enough to experience the Beta and it is a lot more interesting then TBC, for starters the lore doesn't suck. History of the Dwarfs, Humans and Gnomes and other Titan lore, Old Gods, Dragons and finally Arthas the Lich King with a conclusion to the Frozen Throne. There are some very interesting quests to, and the phase stuff is really interesting. Without explaining all the stuff in the expansion (Im not really up to it and you will get sick of hearing it), Blizzard has vastly improved over what they initially set out with in TBC lots of the mistakes are fixed it seems. There will be plenty for the Casual and Hardcore the PvPers and the Raiders to do.. well at least for the first 6 months I guess maybe longer, just depends how you enjoy the game.
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Old 2008-09-29, 16:01   Link #33
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos View Post
For all the complaints about WoW, it's still a fairly dynamic game and the dev team is fairly good about responding to player feedback. But I came from playing FFXI back in the old days too. And I'm back to FFXI as well recently. Not so much for the content but just to play with people that I know.
Actually, if there's any major MMORPG that's about to die soon, it may well be FFXI. Despite S-E's claim of 500,000 players in its latest census, my server's population (Pandemonium) now stands between 1,000 and 1,500, during what used to be its peak hours. At the height of FFXI's popularity, there used to be nearly 4,000 players on the server at almost any given time.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm happy that Blizzard at least *tries* to make the older areas relevant, through Holiday Events, revamps, quests, or forcing players to go back to old cities by not including vital services in expansion cities (auction house, trainers).
If you ask me, S-E does the above a lot better than Blizzard, with its plethora of level-capped quests and missions. And it has just pulled out what is perhaps its most significant update ever in its latest patch earlier this month — Level Sync. Now, bear in mind that FFXI is really Everquest Lite, with the same emphasis on level-based group play. With Level Sync, it is now possible for characters of any level to form a party, without having to worry about level discrepancies any more. This is a huge improvement that makes it possible for the tiny handful of new players to party with the established base of max-level characters, and better yet, do so in all the original newbie areas that the veterans have long since abandoned.

More so than ever before, there is very little excuse for not being able to form a viable party in the game. As long as there are players seeking a group, someone can always cobble together an efficient team, from the entire server's stable of players.

Pity though, this patch probably comes far, far too late for FFXI. The game's dying very visibly, with most of the original high-traffic areas experiencing very depressing desolation. Server mergers are coming soon, I'd wager.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I will say this about WoW though - it's probably a bit too lenient about player mistakes but I do not miss Everquest's level losses and corpse runs one bit.
Out of curiosity, how else would you punish mistakes other than with XP or level losses (which FFXI retains from Everquest)? As you've observed, WoW's current system is far too lenient, other than for the inconvenience of doing an optional corpse run (which FFXI forgoes entirely).

And I'm not sure about most players, but I absolutely hate the idea of being "resurrected" from death. It is the absolute-worst way to handle what ought to be an irreversible event. From a role-playing perspective, it opens up various cans of worms that are never properly addressed from a lore point-of-view. (For example, why is it that common villains don't get resurrected while players enjoy that privilege?)

But that's just me and my tabletop-D&D background talking, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Lore is a big part of maintaining interest in the WoW universe. They have now played their major trump card in Arthas. They may be doing the Lich King expansion as being the last one. Although they have hinted The Emerald Dream and South Seas could still hold interesting possibilities.
And as for lore, this has always been WoW's greatest weakness, in my opinion. Or, more correctly, it would be a weakness, if the majority of its player base even cares about its lore.

Very little of the game's background story (what little I could find) makes coherent sense. That's even before you consider the regular retcons to correct past "mistakes". And it's very obvious that the developers shoe-horned and finessed various finer plot points just to make them fit their desired gameplay design.

No, in my opinion, lore has never been a big part of sustaining player interest in WoW. Only a very small niche of WoW players attempt to roleplay. For the vast majority, it's just another game. A very fast-paced and graphically-attractive game, at that.

=======

And that is where I'll readily concede WoW's superiority over most other MMORPGs. The game is very easy for casual gamers to pick up. It has been specifically designed to suit busy people with scarce playtime to spare. It is also clearly designed to appeal to players with short attention spans, those who equate constant action and furious button mashing with a highly enjoyable experience.

Most of all, the game is also designed to appeal tremendously with hard-core number crunchers, ie, those players who typically dominate the top rungs of Battle.net. These are the veterans who love parsing every line of data to decipher the best formulae for dishing out damage, holding aggression or managing crowd control, among many other things.

It's very rare for any computer game to achieve a balance between such conflicting demands, and much as I hate to admit it, WoW achieves this balance brilliantly. So, from this assessment, I'd say it's highly unlikely WoW will "die out" anytime soon, not when older rivals with far less stellar achievements are still around, and especially not when its latest expansion is just around the corner.
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Old 2008-09-29, 17:50   Link #34
Xellos
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Actually, if there's any major MMORPG that's about to die soon, it may well be FFXI. Despite S-E's claim of 500,000 players in its latest census, my server's population (Pandemonium) now stands between 1,000 and 1,500, during what used to be its peak hours. At the height of FFXI's popularity, there used to be nearly 4,000 players on the server at almost any given time.
Yeah, I remember those days too. It's really too bad since SE made a lot of nice changes. But like I said, I came back for the people. Technically, WoW is the better game, but it never had the same feel for me as WoW. Also, Pandemonium happens to be my server as well haha. My character is Xellos (go figure) if you ever want to look me up.
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Old 2008-09-29, 17:56   Link #35
Jaden
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Way too early to herald the end of this game. It has many viable competitors but no WoW-killer, nothing to avert the eyes of the hooked. And WoW's fishing line is premium quality (Blizzard). And the line was cast in the perfect time and places.
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Old 2008-09-29, 18:26   Link #36
Mitsuomi
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starcraft 2 will eventually replace WoW... and it being free will be a big positive.
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Old 2008-09-29, 20:04   Link #37
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by Mitsuomi View Post
starcraft 2 will eventually replace WoW... and it being free will be a big positive.
Starcraft 2 isn't an MMORPG so it can't replace WoW...unless I've missed something and they changed the game to do so.

the only game that can close to replacing WoW is Guild Wars 2 but even then thats some ways off.
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Old 2008-09-29, 20:37   Link #38
Telmah
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I played WoW from 6 months from release (and Everquest for 5 or 6 years) til about March when burn out took its toll. Played alliance for 6 months on a pvp server, then horde on a pve, then horde again on a pvp. It has alot of interesting features and it really broke free from Everquest especially but at the same time, it has its faults. Did alittle raiding (MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, Kara, Gruuls, ZA)but largely pvp...and the rock, paper, scissors mold grew frustrating. Some classes I could beat with ease, others I felt like I was seeing the end game credits if I managed to beat one. PvP was too quick before BC but after BC, it was only about gear and little else.

All that being said, just started Warhammer and I have to say pvp wise, it hands down beats WoW. The dual targeting system (one hostile and one friendly) alone is nothing short of amazing--a healer can heal and debuff without toggling targets endlessly. The fact that there's no mana, every class functions on an energy style mechanic is pretty neat too, plus each class has its own special mechanic while WoW only had rage, energy, and mana largely. Collision is a nice touch as well--you can box in people or form ranks to hold them off--and you can't be run through. Graphics are more realistic and better, but of course that comes at the price of higher graphic cards.

PvE wise, there's not all that much improvement except public quests...that are like mini GM events...the more you help, damage, heal, or do quest objectives, the better shot at loot you have. Even if you don't win, you get a bonus for the next time it starts up til you do win. ('ll admit I like how they show you on the map roughly where the quest objectives can be found.) The only other really neat thing is the tome...it keeps track of everything you do...and varies things were earn you titles and what not...I think I've unlocked 50 different titles halfway through the game so far. You can get trophies that have no stats but look different too. Plus you can link achievements in your tome, that other players see when they inspect you. There's only 40 levels, but there's 80 fixed amount pvp ranks. The levels take longer especially at the low end, which makes each an achievement. You get a new power that scales each level as well. Interestingly, the "white" damage from weapons is a very small portion of your damage...so perhaps for once melees won't outpace casters in terms of scaling.

Now to the point...will it kill WoW? It might severly hurt PvP players...it's just a better mouse trap. It's definitely the goal of the game and more refined. No boring mana drain races or running around pillars. I was pretty impressed they put detaunts in that reduce incoming damage, so healers aren't focus fired first...and tanks with taunts that boost there damage if you don't attack them--they don't force players how to act but rather discourage/encourage behavior. I found being crowd controlled in pvp to be frustrating and there's nothing of the sort...there's roots and snares, but all are short duration and often they are situational...ie rogues can only snare if you are at a range and they see your back.

For a PvE stand point I don't think it will or was intended to. The quests are fun, especially the public quests, which let you actually meet other players more than solo quests ever did, but it is cattering to a non raidng crowd I think. It's more about the tome for pve players...you are unlocking little by little bits of lore and nice things, like again tropies, bragging rights, and titles.

Overall, I don't think it will kill WoW by any means, but it might be the first blow towards it. Just like WoW didn't really kill Everquest...it's still going and strong, but facing a diminshing player base...

One other note, the design team originally had 12 classes on each side...now they only have 10. What I had read was, they felt the 4 they cut weren't interesting or fun enough and decided to release them at a later date, rather than put them out there unfinished. That's a really good step in my opinion...but time will tell.
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Old 2008-09-29, 21:11   Link #39
Vinak
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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you make WaR to sound very appealing heh. I was very interested in playing it few months ago, but I am no longer in a position to pay for a monthly subscription.

Spoiler for more crap:
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Old 2008-09-29, 21:33   Link #40
Mr Hat and Clogs
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I'm interested in playing Warhammer to, my friend keeps asking me about it, but I cant get it because its just not available in my town at the moment.

But WoW-killer's or MMO-killers, are all fairly silly concepts, as long as the someone enjoys playing the game it isn't dead. But eventually all MMO's will be shut down its just a matter of time. EQ is still going strong, hell even little old Ultima Online is still kicking on and its like older then all current top-dog MMO's put together.

So how do you judge an MMO's success, the fact that it has 10 million players? or that its still being played after 11 years? Or that its just an enjoyable experience for you?

Hell the only thing I think that would *kill* MMO's is something that is Matrix-esque, where you are completely immersed into the world. But I don't see that happening for a few years yet.
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