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Old 2008-10-02, 21:52   Link #3321
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nines View Post
Biden seems like he just made up a bunch of lies
Huh?

Quote:
and it also seems like he had the questions before hand...im not saying he did but it seems alot like it
Uh... biased much? Both candidates are prepped on a number of possible answers, and if you're wondering why the candidates sometimes go off on a tirade that isn't answering the question at all, it's because they're trying to steer it such that they're responding to questions that they were prepped for.

Quote:
Palin held her own very good up there against him
Yes, agreed. She did very well. I hated a number of her opinions (the issue over rights to homosexuals was thinly veiled, yet the fact that she wasn't up front about her beliefs makes me think that she knows the views are not wildly popular all around) but she sounded confident and spoke well, and she was able to guide questions into what she wanted to respond to. I don't call that straight talk (as Palin likes to claim), but it shows that she's become more skilled as a typical politician.
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Old 2008-10-02, 21:55   Link #3322
Sassarai
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I thought Biden pwned Palin. It's just that the expectations were so low on Palin that all she needed to do was sound coherent and be okay. She stuck to talking points while Biden went into more specifics and she got totally pwned on the Dicky Cheney question.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:03   Link #3323
cors8
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The main thing Palin did was keep her national political future alive.

In the end, everyone's voting for McCain or Obama.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:06   Link #3324
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nines View Post
Biden seems like he just made up a bunch of lies and it also seems like he had the questions before hand...im not saying he did but it seems alot like it even if he did have questions before hand Palin held her own very good up there against him
Sorry me friend, both are doing double talk, exaggeration and simplification when it suits them fairly equally. Nothing new there I suppose. Unless you really wanna do signifiganct research on context for facts and nuance of facts (which I don't think many do) it's really about presentation I find in the debates. These are my first ones watching and frankly not much new is said if you have been paying close attention to the candidates beforehand.

Not much better than the first debate, but not bad in presentation. Gwen Ifill WAS professional. Palin had just enough "detailed" language to avoid anything embarrasing, really she came off as meh, overall in terms of actual substance. Biden same thing although he did provide more "details" in naming bills and naming countries and such. As thought Palin really played her home town "hockey mom" schtick and it worked good in exuding charisma. Biden managed to work modestly well with that to a certain extent (for people who know him) scince he grew up in mid-town Penn and represents a Delaware suburb.

Hardly anything surprised me though, neither has the debates seriously swayed me in terms of my leanings. This is cause of the amount of time i'm investing into really researching these people, plus the fact that these campaigns are so damn managed, you sure as hell just can't rely on their words (i'm trying not to use that as a primary source of info, at least not "talking points".)

(opinion; no offense to Palin supporters who appreciate her hockey mom status but gag me with a spoon!)
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:06   Link #3325
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If I could train my dog like they trained Sarah Palin to answer questions in this debate, I would be the first dude to have a rabies-infected street-mutt win at the Westminster dog show...


How Sarah Palin answered every question:

1) Quick Yes or No
2) Deflect into an entirely rehearsed answer that may or may not have ANYTHING to do with the intended question
3)Throw in a dash of folksy, hockey-mom schtick
4)Pray Gwen Ifill didn't ask a follow up question (Which she never did)
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2008-10-02 at 22:18.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:12   Link #3326
cors8
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I seriously hope all the "sexism" hoopla is over for future women candidates now. I hope the kiddy gloves come off next time in the future.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:13   Link #3327
dahl_moon
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First post in months is in the elections thread, LOL.

Palin did <strike>disappointingly</strike> surprisingly well is this debate. Although I had to cringe about the "role of the VP" talk (yeah, Cheney's your ideal VP role model, I got that ), but I think she get's an average score on this debate. She spoke like a true politician; if you don't like the topic, change it. Biden didn't implode either, although he there were hints of him just a bit too eager.

However, I have to say the debate was a bit too short and a bit lacking in applying pressure to either VP candidate. Which means no one really had an opportunity to make any "gaffes."
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:17   Link #3328
solomon
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
One only needs to look at the TITLE: "The Breakthrough: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama"

Sure, you can't judge a book by its' cover... but it does give ya a hint and a half!
Ok last rant on this then I close it.

The book isn't out yet, no one knows what it's about. I personally find all this Gwen Ifill crap offensive in suggesting that she is so short sighted, money grubbing and unrespectful that she would write something approaching AN ENDORSEMENT OF A CANDIDATE. 9/10 chance, this book will be about the history of black politicians from civil rights until now, how the rhetoric has changed how the audience has changed. How each politician played his or her own game, examining that and contextualizing it. IN A DETATCHED HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE. This has been written about before, New York Times did something just like it earlier this year, there was no endorsement nor sucking up to candidates in the article, it just noted and examined the change between the politicians of Jesse Jackson Sr. and Jesse Jackson Jr.'s respective generations.

If it is anything else I will eat my words, but Ifill's past work hardly puts her in the same boat as some other black journalists who would write a book about a political candidate during an election season. Her work during the VP debate as you seen not to mention her past moderating of newshour guests (which people may or may not have seen but which I have) speaks for itself.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:17   Link #3329
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Gwen Ifill was at her worst IMO...I think the Republican pressure based on her soon-to-be released book featuring Barack Obama got to her...Ive seen her do plenty of debates and interviews...She asked so many leading, wiggle-room having, soopa-explanatory questions (Many times giving an exit to the question)...These are 2 candidates running for Vice-Pres, do they really need every question spelled out in SOOOOPA detail with NO FOLLOWUPS...Me and about 4 people watched this thing and we were all screaming at the TV for Ifill to actually moderate this debate...Both candidates suffered because of this...She never encouraged back-and-forth comments really, and she didn't even ask any questions about ANYTHING Palin had screwed up on in the Katie Couric interviews...Not to chide her, but to give her a chance to clear the record...Moderators ALWAYS ask questions on big happenings surrounding the candidates prior to the actual debate...Gwen was just disappointing to me...

Anyways, at the end of the day people thought Palin's head would fall off of the podium and it didn't so I don't think this debate changes much...
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:18   Link #3330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nines View Post
Biden seems like he just made up a bunch of lies and it also seems like he had the questions before hand...im not saying he did but it seems alot like it even if he did have questions before hand Palin held her own very good up there against him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
I had to turn off the debate. I've had a bad day already and this isn't helping my stress levels.

I only saw five minutes or so on the economy. My general impression... What I saw reminded me of the 2004 presidential debates: The Democrat presenting the most twisted, dishonest presentation of both sides stances to pander and the Republican candidate sticking to ineffective, pre-built lines that do little to nothing to correct the record or actually describe the platform in any adequate way at all.

I wish Sarah Palin were better prepared and I wish some one would punch Joe Biden in the mouth.

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.



BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.



BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.



BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."



BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:19   Link #3331
Fipskuul
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Expectations on Palin must be really low if 80+% of the people watching the debate concluded that she did better. I think she did as expected, following a single line that she was taught before the debate (kind of like how you would discuss if you discuss based on what you hear from others, instead of looking at that yourselves through multiple sources). Katie Couric interview was one of those expected results.

I would have considered her to have passed the test if she would have done what Biden had done, what McCain did against Obama, answering strongly the claims aimed at her and mostly towards McCain. Hillary would have done that, Palin couldn't. And I think, if she would have done that she would have made McCain a winner, but as of now, she didn't bring any plus, so nothing has changed.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:23   Link #3332
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
If I could train my dog like they trained Sarah Palin to answer questions in this debate, I would be the first dude to have a rabies-infected street-mutt win at the Westminster dog show...


How Sarah Palin answered every question:

1) Quick Yes or No
2) Deflect into an entirely rehearsed answer that may or may not have ANYTHING to do with the intended question
3)Throw in a dash of folksy, hockey-mom schtick
4)Pray Gwen Ifill didn't ask a follow up question (Which she never did)
Now now, Biden did do that too. In fact all politicians do it in some manner ALL THE TIME. Americans can't deal with REAL straight talk, cause then politicans WOULD CALL THE POPULACE OUT, and you KNOW that ain't gonna happen.

although it does here by a recently defeated congressman of republican Maryland;

Gilchrest Unloads on Know-Nothing Pols and the Rest of Us
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100102784.html
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:25   Link #3333
mg1942
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Palin is forcing the hollywood and late-night types to respect her.

in spite of her ability to connect with regular people, Sarah Palin is really something special... and a good person.

I think Hillary must be stunned to see that a woman can be tough without being a boner shrinker.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:27   Link #3334
solomon
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Originally Posted by dahl_moon View Post
First post in months is in the elections thread, LOL.

Palin did <strike>disappointingly</strike> surprisingly well is this debate. Although I had to cringe about the "role of the VP" talk (yeah, Cheney's your ideal VP role model, I got that ), but I think she get's an average score on this debate. She spoke like a true politician; if you don't like the topic, change it. Biden didn't implode either, although he there were hints of him just a bit too eager.

However, I have to say the debate was a bit too short and a bit lacking in applying pressure to either VP candidate. Which means no one really had an opportunity to make any "gaffes."
I think that is chalked up to people really not voting on the VP ticket, it's about the presidential ticket. Officially in simple terms the VP really doesn't do Jack shit in office, however, Cheney is arguably an exception. That has to do probably with relationship with president/party elite/special interests/etc.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:34   Link #3335
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I think both candidates did fine amazingly. I wasn't fond at the fact that they were so quick to start the mudslinging...regarding each party's Presidential candidate, that is. I think both parties had moments of lying, twisting the truth or simply pulling things out of nowhere, but the way the race has been going up till now, I'm not expecting much anymore.

From a small business owner stand-point, there was one thing that struck me from Biden. He kept referring to what he saw as "rich." $250,000. $250,000 isn't hard to reach for a small business. It concerns me greatly since the moment I reach that or more, I'll be taxed greatly as a business, even when I pay myself no more than $2,000/mo due to overhead. My only hope would be that my tax write-offs will soften the blow.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:36   Link #3336
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Now now, Biden did do that too. In fact all politicians do it in some manner ALL THE TIME. Americans can't deal with REAL straight talk, cause then politicans WOULD CALL THE POPULACE OUT, and you KNOW that ain't gonna happen.
Puh-leeeeze....Sorry I don't mean to disrespect you at all, but I'm just such a political junkie that that's not gonna fly with me...Now I'm not saying Biden totally hit this thing outta the park...It seemed like at times he just didn't know how to deal with her, but you will not convince me that he did anything close to what Sarah Palin did in this debate...She was so incredibly evasive it was mind-numming...How many times did she bring a question back to some pre-dished, spelling-bee type of rehearsed answer? (That didn't even address the original question--At one point Ifill totally let her off the hook by combining Nuclear energy into a question that was originally asked about Iran) She actually said she's not gonna answer the question asked by the moderater (She said that $hit)...She routinely bit around the edges of so many questions I lost track...Biden had substance, whether or not they were true, they had conviction and passion...Sarah Palin had all these roundabout, hollow answers that would somehow find there way back to some trite Alasakan re-verbiage...It was maddening really...

Rewatch this debate and watch the tone of her answers...You could tell when she was being off-the-cuff (Hockey mom schtick) then when it went back to the rehearsed answer her tone was almost automotonish in nature...Gwen Ifill's lack of asking follow-up questions was the greatest life-perserver I've ever seen for a candidate in a debate...
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:38   Link #3337
Greenē
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
... The one thing that stuck out in my mind was Palin's call for moving the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. That would be a major PR blow against the US in the muslim world. ...
Clearly that one is going to blow up later on them.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:47   Link #3338
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Expectations on Palin must be really low if 80+% of the people watching the debate concluded that she did better.
I call your B.S if you meant did better then Biden but if you meant she did better then the Katie Couric interview, it's hard not to.


CNN website poll

Sen. Joe Biden 71% 103391
Gov. Sarah Palin 26% 37369
Neither 3% 4825
Total Votes: 145585

Undecided poll

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10...y4497035.shtml


Please don't use far right site polls either like FOX. That's like using Huffington Post (for the far left)

Last edited by Sassarai; 2008-10-02 at 23:00.
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Old 2008-10-02, 22:48   Link #3339
Cherudim Arche
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
Palin is forcing the hollywood and late-night types to respect her.

in spite of her ability to connect with regular people, Sarah Palin is really something special... and a good person.

I think Hillary must be stunned to see that a woman can be tough without being a boner shrinker.
Might as well get a extremely sexy playboy model to say the same exact speech of Sarah Palin.

Hillary is much better in terms of using her words and actually being tough.

As she as good of a person as she says, it can be a mere"Mask' of her true side. A ordinary republican can do the exact same thing, with the result. She may have looks, but looks can only get you so far especially in here case. Can you tell me in what way would she be special, compared to a random draw to other Congreesman or Senators?
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Old 2008-10-02, 23:03   Link #3340
Fipskuul
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I call your B.S if you meant did better then Biden but if you meant she did better then the Katie Couric interview, it's hard not to.
It was CNN, and I was referring to doing better or worse than expected, but I thought the first part of my sentence made that clear.
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