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Old 2008-10-03, 03:14   Link #841
mg1942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
They were? Why were they a national security risk? But more to the point, who gets to decide what represents a national security risk? I mean, in my mind, killing a country's leader and then setting up your own only to face hatred from that entire country 10-20 years down the line is kind of, you know, a self-fulfilling prophecy of a security risk. But to be honest, I don't even buy into that security risk garbage: it's unethical.

Now think in cold war terms... think back at the time when USSR was on equal footing with USA. No one ever predicted of sudden USSR collapse. Everyone thought East and West rivalry will go on forever. US leaders fully believed on the "domino effect", and that revolutoinary movements in American continent must be "contained" by any means (in form of "friendship", economic/sustained development assistance, or in worst case scenario... a CIA mission to "contain" Soviet-leaning revolutionary movements.)

The thought of having a communist gov set up in the American continent that is economic and militarily dependent on the USSR was just unthinkable. The thought of Soviets stationing advanced, state-of-the-art Navy/Marine/Air force hardware in American backyard, including the feared and respected Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces (ICBMs and SAMs), is a NATIONAL SECURITY RISK nightmare.

As long as USSR was around, no one give a damn about the grievances against USA. At the end of the day, US is/was seen as the savior of the (free) world every time they "contain" revolutionary/socialist/communist movenets around the world.

This sounds crazy.... but think in Cold War terms to understand this.



Also, I think the civil rights of the 50s-60s was also a NATIONAL SECURITY issue. The Government was quick to abolish all forms of racist policies. The goal was to maintain parity with Soviet education (getting minorities to enter "equal" schools), prevent minorities from setting up revolutionary/leftist movements, preventing race wars, and improve USA's P.R. in the wrold.

Again it sounds crazy... but think in cold war terms to understand this.

Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 06:52.
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Old 2008-10-03, 03:28   Link #842
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
They were? Why were they a national security risk? But more to the point, who gets to decide what represents a national security risk? I mean, in my mind, killing a country's leader and then setting up your own only to face hatred from that entire country 10-20 years down the line is kind of, you know, a self-fulfilling prophecy of a security risk. But to be honest, I don't even buy into that security risk garbage: it's unethical.
Funny, that sounds like Iraq to me, only they were a "global" risk, what with having weapons that every other powerful country has tucked away in some bunker somewhere. Wonder if that means you were against it?

Quote:
How would you feel if China, Russia, Mexico, Canada - pick a country of your choice, came in and assassinated high-profile members of our government? Would you welcome them as liberators? Hell, almost everyone hates Bush at this point - you'd think that the assassin country would be welcomed as liberators, right? Would you welcome them as liberators?

As much as I dislike Bush, I wouldn't welcome a foreign country who offed him and a good portion of the government as liberators. I wouldn't trust them, nor anyone that they installed into the government. So tell me, why should someone in another country feel any different than you (I presume) and I would, simply because it's America that's doing the killing and installing?
slight detour from the event you guys were on, but i still applied the q to Blair at the time when he was tag teaming with Bush. The only thing i'd not like is the fact that the assassinators snuck in, past security and completed it, which would mean that we're vunerable to further invasion.
The citizens could only feel liberation if they were severly suppressed, else people may feel other things (slight gratitude perhaps?)
The only thing Bush wise that stopped me having a grudge against pretzels, was that I was told that Cheney would be 10 times worse, so it was better to have the puppet as the leader.
As for having that country of the assassinators, deciding who gets to rule the country you're in, naturally it'd reek of mistrust. But the thing is the West has a more established democratic system than let's say Iraq, so for a foreign country to try to instill new people of power would be difficult, (short of already having links with people in the inside) than a country who's now implementing this system for the first time, I'd think. I'm sure we'd have politicians (even in the opposing parties) who could already take up the posts.

(I know you were just setting an example to someone else, but I went along with it, thinking of how it might work in this present day)
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Old 2008-10-03, 03:32   Link #843
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Wait, I'm not sure I understood your post. You'd actually support other countries assassinating Bush, as long as they got Cheney, too? You'd support other countries getting rid of any American president they don't like?

Or do you put a condition on it, like "they have to be democratic"? 'cause UK has had a parliament for a good long while, and Greece practically invented democracy. Do they get to off your government?
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Old 2008-10-03, 03:53   Link #844
mg1942
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Now that USSR doesn't exist, grievances against the USA started to surface.

Not surprised if USA's policy of containment offended many radicalists/socialist/communists. Tactics and strategies used on "containment" may be a bit too harsh since they were not thoroughly well planned for long term. The ultimate goal at that time was to stop Soviet expansion by any means.

Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 14:12.
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Old 2008-10-03, 03:59   Link #845
Mystique
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Was replying to Ledgem's hypothetical question with the examples he set, as I said, it's a slight detour from the actual example you guys were using.
'how would I feel if let's say France came in to kill Blair" - in relation to the technology and security measures we have as countries at present, how people over here felt about the leader at the time, the current political system we have and how possible is it for a foriegn country of a similar system to completely override it. (As opposed to removing a dictator, seeing the power fall and establishing something new).
If Bush went, I'd not have lost any sleep over it, but I wasn't thinking in terms of an invasion, rather it was a discussion I was having with some Americans when that incident was reported and I said 'If Bush goes, who takes over and would that be better?'
If someone in Iraq said 'I wanna kill Blair', I can't say I'd blame them. We already got dragged in, London got hit, we lost lives as a result of something the country wasn't supporting, hell some of his own cabinet members quit over Iraq. We get the terrorism act, we become the most CCTV'ed city in the world, we become the country with one of the largest DNA databases in the world - that's just to name a few, there's no love lost, let's say, you perhaps feel different with your own leaders.

As for a condition, I haven't set one. If we were to take an example of a country with a different set of political structure (let's say China) who tried to attack US or UK, I just call that WW3. The fight wouldn't remain in one country as it did Iraq.
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Old 2008-10-03, 04:16   Link #846
Anh_Minh
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So are you OK with it, or not? 'cause I'm really not sure what you're answering to, there.

And as for how I feel about my leader - he'd have to screw up a lot harder than he has before I'd consider welcoming a foreign power assassinating him and putting a puppet president in his place.
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Old 2008-10-03, 04:35   Link #847
Mystique
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To Ledgems hyp.. *facepalm*
Never mind.
Just to answer your question then, if a foriegn power came to the US to try to assassinate Bush you're saying, would I support it? Not anymore than I supported the US and UK doing that to Iraq, or keeping tabs on N Korea or Iran, simply cause of the useless loss of life for the regular people.
In light of recent events and taking into account the years of US bashing and just the general attitudes to America from various foreign countries, under the current administration, if they tried now, I'd not send them on their merry way, but I wouldn't blame them either, I got a very 'shouganai' attitude to it at the moment.
As for the feasibility of that as i was saying, (to the hypothetical point) it'd be harder for any foreign country with a similar political system to put a puppet president of their choice in an already established democratic system, short of it partially being an inside job.

The 'how would you feel' was aimed at mg1942, but i sat down and thought 'wait how would I feel if I had to take into consideraton how we all felt bout Blair over here, what's gone down in history and the state of London now as a result and a foreign power came in to assassinate him and try to place a PM of their choice? How'd it work in this day and time?
So i tossed in my two pence. *shrug* You said, Bush would have to do a lot more worse, we had thought that Blair already crossed the line; at worst for the present time we ended up with suicide bombers as retaliation.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-10-03 at 05:13.
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Old 2008-10-03, 09:18   Link #848
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
Now that USSR doesn't exist, grievances against the USA started to surface.

Not surprised if USA's policy of containment offended many radicalists/socialist/communists. Tactics and strategies used on "containment" may a bit too harsh since they were not thoroughly well planned for long term. The ultimate goal at that time was to stop Soviet expansion by any means.
Having had to practice hiding under my desk "duck'n'cover" in 1963 and then having worked in the defense industry with SAC in the 80s (part of Ike's 'military-industrial complex' fears) .... I think I can say fairly knowledgeably that "grievances against the US" were in full public view long before the USSR was toast. Our stunts in manipulating a country's internal affairs go all the way back to the Spanish Civil War and farther. I think you're bit misty-eyed in your assessment of the success of most of those stunts. They were short-term successful in many cases but the long-term results have been almost uniformly bad. I think our antics in South America were horrendously poor policy and we're paying *today* for things like our support of single point failures like the Shah of Iran, Saddam (yes, he was our friend til our need for him ended), and Musharaff of Pakistan. Even our "successes" like Chiang Kai-shek and the various autocrats of South Korea's "republics" were disasters for their citizens compared to what we *could* have done. The amazing thing is how we go back to the same "gonna fail in the long run" tactics over and over.

We used to watch Dr. Strangelove at parties when I was working with SAC (B-52 systems) .... not because it was funny but because it was true. We encountered officials like those on a daily basis. Functionally insane.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-10-03 at 09:42.
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Old 2008-10-03, 10:17   Link #849
Sassarai
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150 fine... for staying too long at the KFC


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle1757267.ece
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Old 2008-10-03, 10:25   Link #850
Anh_Minh
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The 24-year-old fumed yesterday: “It’s disgusting. I spend a lot of money in there. Now I’m never going back.”
Sounds to me like she came out ahead...
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Old 2008-10-03, 10:58   Link #851
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Not surprised if USA's policy of containment offended many radicalists/socialist/communists. Tactics and strategies used on "containment" may a bit too harsh since they were not thoroughly well planned for long term. The ultimate goal at that time was to stop Soviet expansion by any means.
Tell that to the 30 000 disappeared here during the puppet government your government set us up in the 70s.

It had more to do with controlling the population and weeding out the smart people. Those were the ones getting caught and systematically eliminated. They weren't just pursuing people who had a leftist affinity, they were pursuing people for thinking. It was so bad many brilliant people simply escaped the country in what is known as the "brain flee".
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Old 2008-10-03, 11:02   Link #852
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
150 fine... for staying too long at the KFC


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle1757267.ece
Think she'll switch to maccy D's or BK instead now?
Hate bastard parking fines, but she's seriously damaging herself with her intake :\
I'd love to say 'maybe she'll re evaluate her current diet - and the time used to cosume what she does', but I think I got more chances of seeing pigs fly first...
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Old 2008-10-03, 11:03   Link #853
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Tell that to the 30 000 disappeared here during the puppet government your government set us up in the 70s.

It had more to do with controlling the population and weeding out the smart people. Those were the ones getting caught and systematically eliminated. They weren't just pursuing people who had a leftist affinity, they were pursuing people for thinking. It was so bad many brilliant people simply escaped the country in what is known as the "brain flee".
surprisingly most of them wind up in the US
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Old 2008-10-03, 11:05   Link #854
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Tell that to the 30 000 disappeared here during the puppet government your government set us up in the 70s.

It had more to do with controlling the population and weeding out the smart people. Those were the ones getting caught and systematically eliminated. They weren't just pursuing people who had a leftist affinity, they were pursuing people for thinking. It was so bad many brilliant people simply escaped the country in what is known as the "brain flee".
aye, like I said in my previous post:
"I think our antics in South America were horrendously poor policy"
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Old 2008-10-03, 14:30   Link #855
mg1942
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Tell that to the 30 000 disappeared here during the puppet government your government set us up in the 70s.

It had more to do with controlling the population and weeding out the smart people. Those were the ones getting caught and systematically eliminated. They weren't just pursuing people who had a leftist affinity, they were pursuing people for thinking. It was so bad many brilliant people simply escaped the country in what is known as the "brain flee".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
surprisingly most of them wind up in the US




Also keep in mind that Argentina was harboring war criminals (even to this day). USA/Israel went after former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers.
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Old 2008-10-03, 14:43   Link #856
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post




Also keep in mind that Argentina was harboring war criminals (even to this day). USA/Israel went after former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers.
Ah no, when talking about going after the WWII nazi war criminals the US was all talk and very little action. The CIA following the war co-opt quite a few of the nazi and either put them in high positions in West germany or if the were scientist took them back to the state to work on the rockets and nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

At best you can describe the CIA as indifferent, at worst they actively help some of them escape until they were of no use.
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Old 2008-10-03, 15:11   Link #857
mg1942
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(now think in cold war terms)

Some Nazis were too precious to be deported. USA relied on them because they are the key for USA's ICBM program.

Having Nazis in the US ICBM program did not stop USSR from launching the world's first ICBM. What's amazing is that USSR didn't need Nazi assistance.
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Old 2008-10-03, 15:16   Link #858
james0246
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
(now think in cold war terms)
Out of curiosity, were you actually alive during the cold war (you need not give an actual age, just a yes or no answer, if you consider this question inappropriate, please tell me and I will delete this message)?
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Old 2008-10-03, 15:25   Link #859
WanderingKnight
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Also keep in mind that Argentina was harboring war criminals (even to this day).
Oh, so I guess I must be surprised that these war criminals were the least affected by the State Terrorism practiced during those years?

(Explanation: They were people with a lot of wealth, and most had a reactionary and conservative thinking that was in good terms with the military juntas).
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Old 2008-10-03, 15:43   Link #860
mg1942
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lol I'm not that old

But I learned about the mentality at that time. It's crazy if you think about it today.

I used to talk to a former cold warrior in another forum (even in private). He's Russian and he converses well in English. He claims USSR had the capability to equal or surpass USA militarily. He also claims Moscow was heavily defended with world's most advanced SAM sites during the 60s to 80s. He even bluffs that their ICBMs gave them first strike advantage over the USA, particularly because of its very heavy throw weight. Too bad he's now banned because of the stunts he pulled during the Georgian crisis



To Vexx --
- For your contribution to the S.A.C.
- For maintaining parity with the Soviets.

Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-03 at 16:18.
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