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Old 2008-10-06, 10:43   Link #2021
Ruvixur
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Kallen won because, to almost everyone else, except Lelouch, all those who he let in on Zero Requiem and Suzaku himself, and quite possibly herself upon Lelouch's demise, she did kill Suzaku. And between herself and Suzaku, she destroyed his Frame, Suzaku didn't do likewise.
Well, she didn't kill actual Suzaku. More like "Suzaku" as other world know him.
And she would die if not for Gino, so I call this a tie.
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Old 2008-10-06, 10:45   Link #2022
Dream_Traveller
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Er...she didn't lose. It was her victory. Gino was just there to serve his purpose, he didn't have any factor in the battle at all.
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Old 2008-10-06, 10:48   Link #2023
Ruvixur
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
Er...she didn't lose. It was her victory. Gino was just there to serve his purpose, he didn't have any factor in the battle at all.
Exceot that Suzaku survived getting exploded, but Kallen would die if not for Gino. That's why call it's not Kallen's victory in my view.
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Old 2008-10-06, 13:56   Link #2024
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruvixur View Post
Exceot that Suzaku survived getting exploded, but Kallen would die if not for Gino. That's why call it's not Kallen's victory in my view.
They deliberately blocked the cockpit for that reason, so he could've easily gotten out of Lancelot Albion before it was destroyed. It doesn't matter if Kallen fell off of the ledge afterwards, or passed out--Kallen landed a killing strike on the Lancelot that caused it to explode, and her machine was mostly intact afterwards. Its Kallen's victory, and rightfully earned.

Jesus. People were always complaining that Suzaku won every battle between him and Kallen, and when Kallen finally wins without interruption, everyone is debating whether she won or not when the truth is startlingly clear.
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Old 2008-10-06, 14:04   Link #2025
bladeofdarkness
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the funny part is how they treat kallen passing out as if its some how suzaku's doing
like he made her pass out with that last attack (despite the fact that it didnt hit anywhere near the cockpit and she was still very much awake after it landed)
i already stated my theory (that makes perfect sense IRL) that she was running on andrenalin during the fight (as a part of normal human survival mechinizem) and once she knew her life was no longer in danger (at least from the threat she was facing for all that time, AKA suzaku) her body stopped pumping andrenalin and she collapsed from pushing herself too hard
and yet people kept attacking this theory as if its overlooking something that suzaku did to MAKE her pass out
he made her push herself to the limit of what was humanly possible for a long time (for her at least) so her collapsing is part of his doing
but he didnt actually do any one thing that made her pass out in the end
its knowing that she won the fight and therfor could now relax that made her collapes
its actually normal (happened to me once)
it also makes sense for suzaku not to have collapsed at that point
his life was still in danger (even if his live geass didnt make his stay awake, his normal fight or flight survival mechinizem wouldnt have let him pass out just yet)
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Old 2008-10-06, 15:31   Link #2026
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It was a tie...If anything, the rules should be set up in advance. If the fight was whether or not it was to see whose machine was the most intact, Kallen won, and if it was to see whose body would be most intact, Suzaku won...

In all actuality, it's not whoever's machine is the most intact, it's who is left surviving without the outside influence of anything. We could also speculate that Jeremiah lost that fight to Anya, since Anya's machine was in better shape than Jeremiah's, but however, it was quite clear that jeremiah won the fight.
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Old 2008-10-06, 15:51   Link #2027
Train Samurai
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
They deliberately blocked the cockpit for that reason, so he could've easily gotten out of Lancelot Albion before it was destroyed. It doesn't matter if Kallen fell off of the ledge afterwards, or passed out--Kallen landed a killing strike on the Lancelot that caused it to explode, and her machine was mostly intact afterwards. Its Kallen's victory, and rightfully earned.
No before she landed the blow Suzaku pretty much destroyed all the Guren's operational systems in one last final strike so either way both units were pretty much done for whether you look it at, the Lancelot exploded and the Guren only had its chestplate left. So really it was a standstill if she had not of fell she would of died from the explosion or if it wasn't for Gino would have plummeted to the ground either way Suzaku would have escaped regardless. In the end there's no point of arguing if you favor one character for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Jesus. People were always complaining that Suzaku won every battle between him and Kallen, and when Kallen finally wins without interruption, everyone is debating whether she won or not when the truth is startlingly clear.
Suzaku and Kallen were always even in the fights except when one had the advantage or not. I'm not sure what are you trying to purpose since neither side won, Kallen's goal was to get to Lelouch but she didn't, Suzaku's goal was to stop anyone from pursuing him which he did.
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Old 2008-10-06, 15:58   Link #2028
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
No before she landed the blow Suzaku pretty much destroyed all the Guren's operational systems in one last final strike so either way both units were pretty much done for whether you look it at, the Lancelot exploded and the Guren only had its chestplate left. So really it was a standstill if she had not of fell she would of died from the explosion or if it wasn't for Gino would have plummeted to the ground either way Suzaku would have escaped regardless. In the end there's no point of arguing if you favor one character for another.
Doesn't matter if her operating systems died out. They attacked at the same time, and in the end, Lancelot exploded while Guren merely collapsed. Kallen won the fight, end of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
Suzaku and Kallen were always even in the fights except when one had the advantage or not. I'm not sure what are you trying to purpose since neither side won, Kallen's goal was to get to Lelouch but she didn't, Suzaku's goal was to stop anyone from pursuing him which he did when it .
I'm talking about the mech battle, not the overall scheme of things.
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Old 2008-10-06, 16:26   Link #2029
Train Samurai
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I claimed he was trying to stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch and trying to fake his death at the same time, not lose. He didn't lose even in the false case that he was trying to win, because both their mechs got disabled and both would have "died" if not for Tristan. The fact Suzaku didn't exert himself to the same degree Kallen did (falling unconscious) is evidence enough that he wasn't giving it his all. He simply had to stop her and survive in such a manner that his death was faked. Without the Live On command, he wouldn't have been able to match up against the superior Guren. And you're just trying to simplify it by saying she won because of the conditions of their KMFs.
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Old 2008-10-06, 16:38   Link #2030
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
I claimed he was trying to stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch and trying to fake his death at the same time, not lose. He didn't lose even in the false case that he was trying to win, because both their mechs got disabled and both would have "died" if not for Tristan. The fact Suzaku didn't exert himself to the same degree Kallen did (falling unconscious) is evidence enough that he wasn't giving it his all. He simply had to stop her and survive in such a manner that his death was faked. Without the Live On command, he wouldn't have been able to match up against the superior Guren. And you're just trying to simplify it by saying she won because of the conditions of their KMFs.
Suzaku wasn't trying to fake his death, that was never part of the plan. Both fought to win; Suzaku was aiming to defeat Kallen, Kallen was aiming to defeat Suzaku. And technically, that's the entire point of what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to attach the overall plot points to their battle. I am talking about their battles in the mechs, AND NOTHING ELSE. And in that regard, Kallen won.
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Old 2008-10-06, 16:41   Link #2031
bladeofdarkness
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a)he tried to win the fight
he didnt and the best he could do was disable the guren after he had already lost (the arm wouldnt have penetrated into his chest if the guren had ran out of power before doing it)
the lancelot was destroyed the guren was not = kallen won the fight

b)he wasnt fighting kallen for the sake of faking his death
only an idiot tries to fake his death using someone who can actually kill him for real
the lancelot exploded and he used that fact as a cover for his death
but that was only after he lost the fight (he was making lemonade)
he wasnt trying to use kallen as a cover (what would have happend if she really killed him, and who would have saved lelouch from her)
faking his death (while part of the plan) would have happend at a later time
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Old 2008-10-06, 16:53   Link #2032
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The fact it was revealed that Suzaku "dying" there was all part of a premeditated plan is what indicates he wasn't fighting with "everything he had" to get a clear victory over Kallen. It was part of the plan for him to fake-die in battle. Suzaku was surprised that he had to use the Live On Geass to just stay about on par with Kallen, but again, the fact he pre-planned his death means that he was trying to create a believable "dying" situation. He was surprised that he couldn't decisively manipulate the situation as easily as he hoped, but the show made it clear that he didn't want to "beat" Kallen there. Truly, the Guren SEITEN is a masterpiece since it forced Suzaku to use his Live On Geass in a situation where he would have easily manipulated the situation if Kallen were using an equivalent-spec mech to the Albion. Still, it looks like it wasn't quite high-spech enough for Suzaku to not overcome it anyway.

@bladeofdarkness
Faking death at the hands at Kallen was revealed to be part of Zero Requiem. Suzaku let her blow him up. His only goal all along was to not let Kallen interfere, not kill her.
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Old 2008-10-06, 17:03   Link #2033
bladeofdarkness
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that is wrong in so many ways
1)he was trying to WIN the fight (his finishing move would have been the spinzaku kick, except kallen smashed his leg off)
he was shooting at her with the varis
and destroyed one of the energy wings
if kallen hadent matched him she would have been grounded while he could fly (which makes it hard to sell that she killed him)
2)he wasnt trying to fake his death against kallen (she would have killed him for real) since his death could have faked in a hundred different ways (each of which wouldnt have put the plan at such a risk)
3) his geass makes him "live" at any cost
last time it made him nuke tokyo just so he wont die, so it wouldnt have made him fight better and at the same time let him fight without trying to win (which would be the key to surviving)
4) the guren is a masterpiece
but kallen was the one making it match him move for move and trying to claim that machine specs are all that made her win is rediculus (Lloyd said no other pilot could even use it)
5)and in the end he still lost to the guren so he didnt overcome it
6)kallen and he crossed roads before with equal machines and he never beat her before (ep 24 wasnt equal)

and it wasnt revealed to be part of the plan for kallen to "kill him"
it was part of the plan for him to have died
only an idiot would try it against someone who he couldnt even keep up with without using his geass (which would make him live at any cost, its not seed mode but rather a survival mechnizem)
kallen was a risk to the plan
not part of it (he even tried talking her out of fighting him)
and all becouse lelouch MADE IT A POINT to keep her out of the plan
and how would she have even gotten there
did he plan on gino blowing the shield
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Old 2008-10-06, 17:48   Link #2034
SoldierOfDarkness
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Let's get some things straight here.

The Guren was superior to the Albion (unless you like to say that Kallen's too stupid to determine specs) so therefore she had an advantage against him.

Suzaku's advantage was in his geass which pushed him to the limits and this was what cancelled out Kallen's advantage in her mech. She had the better mech, especially when it bogged down to hand to hand combat.

Albion successfully took down the Guren while the Guren punched it in the stomach, end game.

Guren collapses and falls to its death while Albion is left to explode.

If it was not for a certain plot device, Gino, Kallen would've been dead too.

So all in all the fight was techincally a tie but Gino saved Kallen so that made her the victor.
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Old 2008-10-06, 19:26   Link #2035
Train Samurai
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Let's get some things straight here.

The Guren was superior to the Albion (unless you like to say that Kallen's too stupid to determine specs) so therefore she had an advantage against him.

Suzaku's advantage was in his geass which pushed him to the limits and this was what cancelled out Kallen's advantage in her mech. She had the better mech, especially when it bogged down to hand to hand combat.

Albion successfully took down the Guren while the Guren punched it in the stomach, end game.

Guren collapses and falls to its death while Albion is left to explode.

If it was not for a certain plot device, Gino, Kallen would've been dead too.

So all in all the fight was techincally a tie but Gino saved Kallen so that made her the victor.
That is a much better way of putting it, like I've been saying for a while now, it was a standstill but people are looking at it like the Lancelot exploded Guren didn't, Kallen won. THE END
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Old 2008-10-07, 00:46   Link #2036
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Kallen "won" the battle against Suzaku in Lancelot Albion but her margin of victory was incredibly paper thin, and it cost her everything to do it. Guren was trashed, she was dead tired, and she collapsed from exhaustion. We call that a "Pyrrhic victory" because Suzaku, on the other hand, jumped out of Lancelot and continued on with the Zero Requiem Plan.

Look at it this way:

Small Picture: Kallen won the battle, and it cost her everything to do it. BUT she did beat Suzaku in a Knightmare Frame battle, but by a paper thin margin.

Big Picture: Kallen, despite winning the battle, couldn't go on (Guren was trashed & she was too tired from the battle) to stop Lelouch from using Damoncles and FLEIA. Black Knight's were defeated. The world was conquered by Lelouch.

Depends on the way you look at it, so make it clear which perspective your looking at it from. There are multiple ways to look at a situation, and you may be arguing with someone who looking at it a different way from you. If you just want to focus on the Knightmare Frame battle, fine. If you want to look at the bigger picture and how Kallen fits into all of it, make it clear.
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Old 2008-10-07, 01:24   Link #2037
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It's pretty clear that Kallen and Suzaku have *always* been portrayed as equal rivals in terms of pilot skill.

Kallen mentioned the Guren *should* have been more powerful spec-wise, and of course it's offset by Suzaku's Live Geass.

In terms of raw performance, the SEITEN in its initial debut seemed alot faster than the Lancelot, and from looks, it appears to have thicker armor, though that might just be cosmetic.

Nice to see the Guren SEITEN had a Jet Magnum at any rate.
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Old 2008-10-07, 02:30   Link #2038
Double 120%
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If Guren really was better than Lancelot Albion, then why didn't Lloyd or Cecile tweak it or upgrade it some more after the Guren was taken back by Kallen? I can understand they went overboard and powered up the Guren a lot, but why didn't they do the same with Lancelot Albion if Guren was clearly better spec wise?
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Old 2008-10-07, 03:18   Link #2039
morbosfist
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The Guren was better spec-wise because it had the benefit of the best technology from both sides: Rakshata and Lloyd/Cecile. It's something the Lancelot simply couldn't duplicate.
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Old 2008-10-07, 03:18   Link #2040
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The Lancelot was never touched by Rakshata, so it's common opinion that it didn't have the benefit of her modifications, even though they should've been able to reverse engineer them when they captured the Guren Kasshoushiki.
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