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Old 2008-10-07, 08:36   Link #2041
ZeroSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double 120% View Post
If Guren really was better than Lancelot Albion, then why didn't Lloyd or Cecile tweak it or upgrade it some more after the Guren was taken back by Kallen? I can understand they went overboard and powered up the Guren a lot, but why didn't they do the same with Lancelot Albion if Guren was clearly better spec wise?
I always got the impression that Llyod valued aesthetics just as much if not more than performance when it came to KMF design. The reason he didn't/wouldn't retrofit any of Lakshata's tech would either be that he couldn't see how he could implement the tech without ruining its overall design or that his pride prevented him from doing so i.e. he wanted the LA to win using his tech and his alone to prove to Lakshata's that his was evidently superior.
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Old 2008-10-07, 09:51   Link #2042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It's not just the machine. Don't be foolish. The difference obviously wasn't that big if they were able to fight to a standstill.
im saying Suzaku the better pilot!

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Yes, he was. Every time he attacked, it was on. It was only off when they were talking, and even half of that had it on. You're just grasping at straws.
no he wasnt! they were fighting in the blasted beginning for a while, Suzaku's eyes never light up all time when in battle! then they were cut off and shown for a second time and Suzaku against wasnt shown using Live Geass, only his mech

after they battle and saw they run out of energy to fly and perform the shield, his Live Geass was off when they showed his face. so there is no indication that he was using it against her and chances are that he wasnt since it would of been lit since the shields just disappeared and they had to been battling just recently.

it is only at the end that we see them complete their battle that it is being used!

in the whole battle though, it is on and off!!

Quote:
He says he can see into the future himself. Obviously not very far, but nonetheless he can and with perfect accuracy.
okay, i heard the Geass just gives mental stuff but nothing physical. i believe it was mentioned that he was able to read peoples moves since the Geass allow him to read what his opponent was going to do next.

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Suzaku would know that the Guren is higher speced than his machine, so how she rationalizes her skill has no bearing on how he does. He complimented Kallen, period.
Suzaku is not no enginneer and nothing was told that the Guren's spec were superior or else he wouldn't have bother to say that little line of his. nobody knew that the Guren specs were better until the writers decided to let us know by making Kallen say so.

Im talking about the "Power" Suzaku was talking about since he couldnt land the finishing blow at that time. He complimented Kallen by saying what power! but we later found out what "power" was being directed too, Kallen directed it to Guren from herself! so it was the Guren and not Kallen on why he couldn't land the finishing blow.

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Your statement contradicts itself. Military training is not a natural talent, nor is physical combat. Suzaku is superhuman, this much has been established, but his live Geass is shown to make him stronger than he normally is.
[/quote]


Physical Combat you must have talent to be good at it! I dont know if you are a fighter like i am and do Mixed Martial Arts like and watch the UFC and now the defunk PRIDE org in Japan but just being strong doesnt get you anywhere! You must have talent in MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) to be one of the best. you have to know what you doing in fighting and be blasted good at it....for some it just comes to them, others you have to have hard work, for others it just never gets there.

some people are talented in some forms of fighting but suck in others. there have been strikers who suck at fighting some other physical event but excell at others. some people are good at wrestling but suck striking.


Physical Combat is part of Military trainning, if you suck at being a soldier, then you dont have the natural talent to become a great one and they do pratice Martial Arts as well in the military to a certain extent. Suzaku was trained by Kyoshiro Tohdoh, in martial arts, and has spent most of his time training to become stronger. It was mentioned that he is skilled in the Martial Art of Kendo. How else do you think the writers came and gave him that spinning flying kick, LOL.??

You suck at other things and excell at others. That is how people are.


Live Geass doesnt make his skills as a pilot grow greater than what he already has, that is what i was referring too. On the physical part, I think. Live Geass doesnt give him anything that he cant get beyond his capabilities as well. Maybe they changed it but I have to double check.


I dont know why i am discussing this part anyway since Suzaku with or without Live Geass will destroy and can kill Kallen without much effort in a one on one physical fight.
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Old 2008-10-07, 09:57   Link #2043
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Physical yes in a mecha fight he was at his limit.
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:15   Link #2044
X_Danny_X
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
Physical yes in a mecha fight he was at his limit.
okay where was it stated that it gives him physical abilites beyond what he is capable off?? i need to know because from what i got was that it can give him to a level but a level that he can actually reach without it, it just didnt happen yet for his physical.



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Originally Posted by Double 120% View Post
Kallen "won" the battle against Suzaku in Lancelot Albion but her margin of victory was incredibly paper thin, and it cost her everything to do it. Guren was trashed, she was dead tired, and she collapsed from exhaustion. We call that a "Pyrrhic victory" because Suzaku, on the other hand, jumped out of Lancelot and continued on with the Zero Requiem Plan.

Look at it this way:

Small Picture: Kallen won the battle, and it cost her everything to do it. BUT she did beat Suzaku in a Knightmare Frame battle, but by a paper thin margin.

Big Picture: Kallen, despite winning the battle, couldn't go on (Guren was trashed & she was too tired from the battle) to stop Lelouch from using Damoncles and FLEIA. Black Knight's were defeated. The world was conquered by Lelouch.

Depends on the way you look at it, so make it clear which perspective your looking at it from. There are multiple ways to look at a situation, and you may be arguing with someone who looking at it a different way from you. If you just want to focus on the Knightmare Frame battle, fine. If you want to look at the bigger picture and how Kallen fits into all of it, make it clear.

bro, Kallen didnt won anything with a small margin just because the Lancelot exploded. both the Guren and the Albion were stopped, however Guren went down first and everthing stopped working, even though Kallen got her hit first against Suzaku, She needed extra help to survive while Suzaku didnt, Suzaku stop Kallen but Kallen didnt stopped Suzaku like she said she would.

it was a draw but if we are going to give a slight margin of victory to someone then it has to be Suzaku since he accomplished what he needed to do which was to disable the Guren/Kallen, stop her from reaching Lelouch, fake his death, and make Zero R. happen.

Kallen didnt accomplished anything in this fight on what she set out to do.
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:24   Link #2045
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Originally Posted by X_Danny_X View Post
okay where was it stated that it gives him physical abilites beyond what he is capable off?? i need to know because from what i got was that it can give him to a level but a level that he can actually reach without it, it just didnt happen yet for his physical.
Suzaku: "Even with this live geass your giving so much trouble. Such strength Kallen!"

Kallen: "As far as machine specs go, this Guren is stronger, but why can't I beat you Suzaku?"

I'm just interpreting what was said as a whole since he had no trouble taking at someone like Bismarck with the Live geass but Kallen gave him a hell of alot to deal with regardless of machine specs.
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:25   Link #2046
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morbosfist is right Danny, you are grasping at straws.

I don't know why you bothered to mention your martial arts background, when it doesn't remotely have anything to do with the topic at hand.

You aren't thinking straight, read your post to yourself before you put it up -

"Kallen is directing power from herself to the Guren?"

You can't make up random lines to try to prove your point, it looks desperate. Kallen complemented Suzaku's strength despite the apparently more power Guren, and Suzaku complemented Kallen's strength despite his usage of the Live Geass.

They're equal, plain and simple.
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:39   Link #2047
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Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
morbosfist is right Danny, you are grasping at straws.

I don't know why you bothered to mention your martial arts background, when it doesn't remotely have anything to do with the topic at hand.

You aren't thinking straight, read your post to yourself before you put it up -

"Kallen is directing power from herself to the Guren?"

You can't make up random lines to try to prove your point, it looks desperate. Kallen complemented Suzaku's strength despite the apparently more power Guren, and Suzaku complemented Kallen's strength despite his usage of the Live Geass.

They're equal, plain and simple.
he mentioned about military and physical combat has nothing to do with talent. that is offtopic in itself and had nothing to do with the fight. i shoul of mentioned that to be offtopic but he is wrong on that regard in the aspect that talent has nothing to do with military trainning or physical combat since i come from that very same world.

sorry but i am not grasping at no straws in this . i am taking what is being said straight from the source, Suzaku complimented Kallen when he mentioned about the power she had since he couldnt get a decisive blow against her at that time, but we found out why and it was said that the Guren was a superior mech. Nothing about Kallen. So the fact that Suzaku couln't land a decisive blow was not because of Kallen but because of the Guren. Do you understand now?



Kallen complimented Suzaku and nothing was mentioned about his Live Geass when she said so, she even asked why at the end. So it was directed at Suzaku and not the Live Geass. This points to Suzaku being the more skilled pilot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
Suzaku: "Even with this live geass your giving so much trouble. Such strength Kallen!"

Kallen: "As far as machine specs go, this Guren is stronger, but why can't I beat you Suzaku?"

I'm just interpreting what was said as a whole since he had no trouble taking at someone like Bismarck with the Live geass but Kallen gave him a hell of alot to deal with regardless of machine specs.
I think Morobo was talking about Live Geass giving Suzaku more enhanced physical abilities. Which I dont disagree on that part but im saying it is some level that he can reach but hasnt.

with piloting skills, Live Geass just helps bring his bring his A-Game, nothing of the sort was mentioned anywhere in the anime that said that increases his piloting skills beyond what he is capable off.
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:49   Link #2048
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Kallen is not aware of Suzaku's Geass curse, that's why she wondered, 'why?'.
Suzaku would know that the SEITEN Guren unit is a 9th Generation Frame, and as far as he can see, roughly equal to his Lancelot Albion.

Kallen, in her superior machine, is equal to Suzaku, who is artifically enhanced by Geass.

Both had an advantage in different ways, which cancelled each other out. It doesn't get more simple that that, I'm afraid.
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:16   Link #2049
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Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
Kallen is not aware of Suzaku's Geass curse, that's why she wondered, 'why?'.
Suzaku would know that the SEITEN Guren unit is a 9th Generation Frame, and as far as he can see, roughly equal to his Lancelot Albion.

Kallen, in her superior machine, is equal to Suzaku, who is artifically enhanced by Geass.

Both had an advantage in different ways, which cancelled each other out. It doesn't get more simple that that, I'm afraid.
Suzaku mentioned his Live Geass curse to her right then and there when he complimented her and couldn't get the final blow!! How could she not know about it when he said it directly to her before she even asked her complimented to Suzaku. Once she heard that, her respons should of been different. She should have not wonder why at that point. Besides, Live Geass was given to Suzaku by Lelouch along time ago. I highly doubt she was in total dark with the Live Geass.

from those compliments it was just to tell and point to us who had the better machine and also who was the better pilot.

but that is pointless since Live Geass doesnt enhanced the pilots skills, it just helps bring his A-Game or be at his/her best as a pilot. Live Geass doesnt grant anything more than that besides warning the pilot of deadly attacks or stop him from being suicidal.
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:34   Link #2050
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We are unsure of the extent of the Live Geass' power. It is however, shown as an enhancement of supernatural origin, and is definitely an external, artificial advantage.

From the pilots' speech, it's evident that they were talking to themselves, and not over any communications channel.
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:48   Link #2051
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Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
We are unsure of the extent of the Live Geass' power. It is however, shown as an enhancement of supernatural origin, and is definitely an external, artificial advantage.

From the pilots' speech, it's evident that they were talking to themselves, and not over any communications channel.
Geass itself is an enhancement to the user but not all give enhancements in the same field. Lelouch's Geass gave him the ability to control people, it didnt enhance his skills as a genius or make him a better pilot. Bismark's Geass gave him the power to read the future since this is what everyone is saying, however it didnt give make him a more skilled pilot. Rolo's Geass helps fool people's mind about stoping time, it doesnt increase his piloting skills, Suzaku's Live Geass keeps him from committing suicide/warns him of danger but nothing was said that it enhances his skills as a pilot or his mecha.

No geass that was given ever increased a pilot's skills or his mecha.

Those compliments were directed at each other but when it was done we found out on the Guren being pointed as the more advanced mecha and ofcourse pointed that Suzaku was slightly more advanced pilot.
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:49   Link #2052
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The Live Geass power doesn't seem to be all that special, it only prevents pilots from making kamikaze attacks. In other words, it only ensures that the pilot fights to the degree that his/her safety goes first. Thus, there is really no advantage. Kallen, on the other hand pilots the best Knightmare Frame in the whole Code Geass Universe, SEITAN Guren unit which is a greater advantage than Suzaku's weaker Lancelot Albion unit.

More over, the Live Geass does not make a person immortal, otherwise Shirley would had survived Rolo's fatal attack when Lelouch cast it, yet she died. Thus, the Live Geass is actually useless.
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:53   Link #2053
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Okay, it was because of the Guren that Suzaku got defeated, but not Kallen? Lolwhut? Isn't Kallen, oh, its pilot?
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Old 2008-10-07, 11:56   Link #2054
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Originally Posted by X_Danny_X View Post
Geass itself is an enhancement to the user but not all give enhancements in the same field. Lelouch's Geass gave him the ability to control people, it didnt enhance his skills as a genius or make him a better pilot. Bismark's Geass gave him the power to read the future since this is what everyone is saying, however it didnt give make him a more skilled pilot. Suzaku's Live Geass keeps him from committing suicide/warns him of danger but nothing was said that it enhances his skills as a pilot or his mecha.

No geass that was given ever increased a pilot's skills or his mecha.

Those compliments were directed at each other but when it was done we found out on the Guren being pointed as the more advanced mecha and ofcourse pointed that Suzaku was slightly more advanced pilot.
Suzaku was the target of the Geass, not a Geass user.

It is specifically stated by Lelouch that Suzaku had used the Live Geass to his advantage, clearly to boost combat ability (he required the ability to defeat the Knight of One), and it is certainly, as I stated before, external and artificial in origin.

Therefore, the Live Geass potentially, can be used to boost combat ability. It had no meaning Shirley at that point, having no combat ability, no reason to fight, and having a dying body.

The Live Geass is certainly not useless.
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Old 2008-10-07, 12:22   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by Zenemis View Post
Suzaku was the target of the Geass, not a Geass user.

It is specifically stated by Lelouch that Suzaku had used the Live Geass to his advantage, clearly to boost combat ability (he required the ability to defeat the Knight of One), and it is certainly, as I stated before, external and artificial in origin.

Therefore, the Live Geass potentially, can be used to boost combat ability. It had no meaning Shirley at that point, having no combat ability, no reason to fight, and having a dying body.

The Live Geass is certainly not useless.
dude he has a Geass, he is using it and it was acting on his own before he had to fight to control it. what difference does it make.

It didnt enhance no skills as a pilot. Suzaku just used live geass to work harder, like i said, he pushed himself more but nothing beyond what he is capable off. Suzaku used a moved that Bismark couldnt counter. All he did was just go faster. You dont need a Live Geass to do that.

Kallen had no Geass of her own, so that point is useless in their battle as well.
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Old 2008-10-07, 12:38   Link #2056
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dude he has a Geass, he is using it and it was acting on his own before he had to fight to control it. what difference does it make.

It didnt enhance no skills as a pilot. Suzaku just used live geass to work harder, like i said, he pushed himself more but nothing beyond what he is capable off. Suzaku used a moved that Bismark couldnt counter. All he did was just go faster. You dont need a Live Geass to do that.

Kallen had no Geass of her own, so that point is useless in their battle as well.
No, he does not, as far as we can see in the series, have a Geass. He suffers a Geass curse, there's a distinct difference.

You cannot cleanly state that it only brings out natural ability, because that is not a fact. The only information we have, is that it grants a combat advantage, which was the decisive factor against Bismark.
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Old 2008-10-07, 12:41   Link #2057
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The Lancelot was never touched by Rakshata, so it's common opinion that it didn't have the benefit of her modifications, even though they should've been able to reverse engineer them when they captured the Guren Kasshoushiki.
Are you saying that Lancelot Albion is the best Lloyd and Cecile could design?
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Old 2008-10-07, 12:42   Link #2058
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Originally Posted by Double 120% View Post
Are you saying that Lancelot Albion is the best Lloyd and Cecile could design?
At that point in time, it was. The Guren was the ultimate combination of all technology, the Albion was 2 of 3.
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Old 2008-10-07, 13:07   Link #2059
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At that point in time, it was. The Guren was the ultimate combination of all technology, the Albion was 2 of 3.
Would you really rate Laksharta as having that much of the piece of the pie? 33 and some odd %? She always seemed like the underdog to Lloyd, not his equal. Guren didn't really seem that powerful until Lloyd and Cecile added the energy wings, MVS knife, etc. Cecile too only seemed like an Lloyd's assistant with her only claim to fame being the energy wings.

I always thought Guren SEITEN was the product of Lloyd and Cecile going "freely hogwild" with the re-design. It was something new they could casually freely tinker and experiment with without having to worry about who would use it or what it should look like; like a new toy or hobby. 10 missiles? No, Let's make it 25! Why not? One slash harken? Dump it. Ditch the old left arm and legs. Let's add two bigger slash harkens, and put them on the shoulders. Let's add a crazy Rocket Punch? Heck, sure.

While Lancelot Albion on the other hand had to follow a strict design that didn't really allow them to completely crazy with all the weapons. Two Swords, upgraded Shields, upgraded Varis Rifle, and top it off with Energy wings and improved performance. To add anything else wouldn't really make it "Lancelot" would it? Though, I'm sure Lloyd and Cecile could if they wanted to. By the end of the series, Lancelot still looked like Lancelot and the design was the same from the beginning of the show, while Guren SEITEN looked pretty chunky and big compared to the original design. Guren's base design (radiation arm) was the only thing that was kept in the final form.


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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
I always got the impression that Llyod valued aesthetics just as much if not more than performance when it came to KMF design. The reason he didn't/wouldn't retrofit any of Lakshata's tech would either be that he couldn't see how he could implement the tech without ruining its overall design or that his pride prevented him from doing so i.e. he wanted the LA to win using his tech and his alone to prove to Lakshata's that his was evidently superior.
Not sure about proving his superiority part. I rather think Lloyd saw it as himself being the better KMF designer overall, but with Laksharta being the only credible underdog who could even challenge him. For the most part his designs dominate, but Laksharta does pull out a couple surprises here and there.

On the aesthetics part, I completely agree. Sure you could add a Jet engine to a Ferrari, but then it wouldn't be a Ferrari anymore would it?

Last edited by Double 120%; 2008-10-07 at 13:19.
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Old 2008-10-07, 13:14   Link #2060
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Originally Posted by Double 120% View Post
Would you really rate Laksharta as having that much of the piece of the pie? 33 and some odd %? She always seemed like the underdog to Lloyd, not his equal. Guren didn't really seem that powerful until Lloyd and Cecile added the energy wings, MVS knife, etc. Cecile too only seemed like an Lloyd's assistant with her only claim to fame being the energy wings.
I consider each of the scientists as a 1/3 of a whole. The Guren is 3/3 or 1, and 1 > 2/3.
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