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Old 2008-10-06, 07:22   Link #181
Amirali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holypanl View Post
This would actually be nothing short of completely gay, and another deviation from the storyline of the original bleach theme.

Because HOLLOWS are supposed to be malignant creatures. They SHOULDN'T be personified. Nel is already a big hole in the theory of hollows being innately evil.

If they aren't innately evil, then who are the real villains in bleach? Why do shinigami evaporate hollows then? If a hollow can choose to go against its nature, and, express free will NOT to indiscriminately consume souls, then it kinda takes away form the original set up where they were explained as having to eat souls, and not being able t stop themselves.
It's not just whether it's plausible to have humane arrancar ( it is, as Wanderer explained), but whether it's good storytelling. Would it be better to have clearly defined villains or heroes? I don't know. I like characters with more complex motivations than good or evil. I'd rather not see mass defections to SS, but I could see some of the arrancar going in business for themselves. Grimmjow in particular, is no one's pet kitty.

I'm open to see where Kubo goes with it.

Last edited by Amirali; 2008-10-06 at 07:37.
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Old 2008-10-06, 07:49   Link #182
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^^^ Aiya...Sorry. Just kinda frustrated: Cos Bleach has such a sucky power structure...

Think about this: before Ichigo met Kenpachi back in Soul Society, there was no real way to tell who was really stronger than whom: I'll give examples:

When ichigo just came into Soul Soc, he fought the gate guardian guy, and wasn't even scratched. This was pretty much a standard setter. "Okay, so Ichigo is actually pretty strong. I'm surprised." That what we were thinking.

And then, BAM. Nonsense. Ichigo runs in, and BOW. Up comes Ikkaku, and Ichigo has sooo much trouble fighting him. When I saw him, I was at first like: "Okay this isn't going to take long." Judging by the first fight against the guardian.

So I was confused: "The Eleventh devision is the strongest". That's what they said, around the time of Ichi vs Ikkaku. And they also said: "Ikkaku is the third strongest in the Eleventh."

But i was like: "This Ikkaku guy is really shitty." Cos he had...what? a spear? And no control over his reiatsu whatsoever? Pathetic. I tried to reason it out, and eventually came to the conclusion that: "Okay, maybe Soul Soc is a blowover."

Then came the fact that everyone in Ichigo's team was running around with no fear whatsoever and there were no serious, dramatic mortal wounds on any of them. "Okay...this probably means that the author is really bad enforcing character roles..."

Because Soul Society was first set up as "The super pwning place that is the root of all mystery and the place where the SOUL REAPERS live...that's gotta be a cool place with mysterious guys who have like...deadly auras all over them..." But it turned out to be a humanoid, happy go lucky, way-too-human place. Another disappiontment. oh well...

Then came all the cpatins...NOT being serious. I kinda expected more serious people in keeping with the cannon, pre bleach, folklore definition of Soul Reapers: Death bringers...malevolents...creeps... But nah. Oda said: "screw that shit. Let the real shit hit the fan. I'm-a make'em nice, goody-two-shoes-people."

Um...shocks...I'm not able to put my points forward properly...I'll just end it here: I'll collect my thoughts later...god...I've got to finish reading the chapter first anyway: The hell am i posting here for if I'm only now on page 11?

EDIT: OOOOOOOOOOH!! YES!!! I think Iba has some serious rep in my eyes now. I only think be shouls have punched Ikkaku harder...or slapped him across the face with his sword...
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:01   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirali View Post
It's not just whether it's plausible to have humane arrancar ( it is, as Wanderer explained), but whether it's good storytelling. Would it be better to have clearly defined villains or heroes? I don't know. I like characters with more complex motivations than good or evil. I'd rather not see mass defections to SS, but I could see some of the arrancar going in business for themselves. Grimmjow in particular, is no one's pet kitty.

I'm open to see where Kubo goes with it.
Really...I'd like to see some more complex character development, because it gives the characters a personality with more depth than what's obvious on the surface...The definite thing about Soul Reapers being the good guys and the Hollows being the bad guys already isn't the case anymore because those lines have already been blurred when you have Soul Reapers with Hollow powers and Hollows with Soul Reaper powers; You can't exactly define something that can be either-or, like a person of mixed ethnicity...

And we've already seen various anecdotes of characters defying their set character types, like Aizen/Ichimaru/Tousen and Nel/Pesche/Dondochakka...I don't see why any other Arrancar can't gain some logical humanity, given that their intelligence as an Arrancar is already far greater than that of any other Hollow...It'd be kind of a cliche "defeated enemies are your friends" act for Grimmjow to become an ally of the Soul Reapers, but it'd be a good character twist...
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Last edited by MidnightViper88; 2008-10-06 at 12:06. Reason: They're/their; Self grammar Nazism!
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:17   Link #184
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Seems to me that at some point the action will have to switch back to HM, as I think Ichi vs Ulqi has to be decided either before or at the same time as Captains vs Espada. Hopefully the two battles will be shown concurrently.
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:51   Link #185
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Quote:
...I don't see why any other Arrancar can't gain some logical humanity, given that they're intelligence as an Arrancar is already far greater than that of any other Hollow...It'd be kind of a cliché "defeated enemies are your friends" act for Grimmjow to become an ally of the Soul Reapers, but it'd be a good character twist...
I think you are on to something here, I also believe in the fight between Ulquioora, Nell (Espada # 3, Ichigo insisted she be healed first) may team up with Ichigo to help defeat him... Also maybe it was just me, but it seems there is a weird relationship between Orihime and Ulquioora; he seemed to be listening to her deeply as she was discussing the relationship she has with her friends... Ichigo showed up it was a light of jealously in his (Ulquioora) eyes. Jealously is a human trait.....
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Old 2008-10-06, 11:52   Link #186
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The fight I am waiting for includes the Vizards... They have some real pinned up issues, which need to be resolved......
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Old 2008-10-06, 17:01   Link #187
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unless they do a 360...lets not forget how Nel is practically on the side of good as are Peshe and Donchakka.
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Old 2008-10-06, 18:47   Link #188
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I'm not sure Peshe and Donchakka being on the good side is that much of a help.

Still, Nel (as long as she can remain in adult form) is extremely powerful. Presumably could beat Ulquiorra on her own. I just wonder how much of the battle will have gone on before everyone in HM can leave.
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Old 2008-10-06, 19:16   Link #189
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i don't know if this will help with the Arrencar being good and some being bad

As the hollows go from Menos whom are just foot solders to some of them having some sort of instinct to become stronger they feed and than if they evolve into adjucas(can't Spell) they gain more traits like sort of emotions that manifest as they get stronger and they have a moral sense from that (i'm just gessing hear from the past things that i have read and adding my own)

like when Grim was with his gang before he became an arrencar Showlong was saying how he should bite them to evolve because he knew that this is the strongest they were going to get, whereas Grim still had the hunger to become more than he was. that is all human emotion, it may be that it is to do evil things but, he still wanted to become more than he was.

then if they become Arrancar they have a Shinigami side and that gives them more charcater traits and sort of a moral code to each of them. as they are all uniqe in there own way. that could be a reason to why thay are all different and the way they do.

also as they experience new things like fighting different people who have different openions of the world they could be learning and become influenced by other and there way of life. as they have already evolved so much and they have developed all of these emotions and feelings about different things that could mean that they are sort of adopting different values that each of them see as right and wrong.
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Last edited by kayote; 2008-10-06 at 19:23. Reason: add
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Old 2008-10-07, 04:07   Link #190
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Dude NELL is overrated, even though shes like the former espada #3, doesnt mean shit when aizen keeps on bringing out new strongers arrancars into his espada....at best she could be fraccion lvl as far im concerned....or rank 10x...nothin special. And she has more hax than any espada atm, snort healing powers? GTFO HAX
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Old 2008-10-07, 07:58   Link #191
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Wow you believe nel is at fraccion level? If thats true then every fraccion can kick an unreleased Espada's ass from 5-10 and possibly beat a released Yama with ease.
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Old 2008-10-07, 08:48   Link #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
Dude NELL is overrated, even though shes like the former espada #3, doesnt mean shit when aizen keeps on bringing out new strongers arrancars into his espada....at best she could be fraccion lvl as far im concerned....or rank 10x...nothin special. And she has more hax than any espada atm, snort healing powers? GTFO HAX
lol ? she pwned Noitora like nothing...
anyway, stronger then Kenpachi and lvl 5 Espada
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Old 2008-10-07, 10:51   Link #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
Dude NELL is overrated, even though shes like the former espada #3, doesnt mean shit when aizen keeps on bringing out new strongers arrancars into his espada....at best she could be fraccion lvl as far im concerned....or rank 10x...nothin special. And she has more hax than any espada atm, snort healing powers? GTFO HAX
As the others have said, that's clearly wrong. She was obviously stronger than Nnoitra, and he's #5. Being as strong as whoever the #3 is now is unlikely, but I don't think being capable of beating Ulquiorra alone is much of a stretch. It's obviously not certain, but being clearly stronger than the person one place below Ulquiorra shows that she can't be far off, and could very well be stronger.
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Old 2008-10-07, 12:17   Link #194
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Dude... seriously... Nel pwns. What manga have you been reading?!
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Old 2008-10-07, 15:19   Link #195
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Yeah Nel released vs Noi unreleased, she pwns.

But seriously, only her cero eating power gave her advantage...
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Old 2008-10-07, 16:57   Link #196
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Err...well, I'd rate Nel as about level of Arrancar no 5...

Cos I just don't want this gay: "Ichigo is helped out by all his friends and the friendship was stronger than everything in the end, so that's why he beat Ulquiorra..." shit.

Honestly. Anime is the originator of the "Friendship trial" type battles, but These only take place at points when there SEVERELY strong development of the main character, who will then, empowered by er...fluff (?), suddenly unleash a great power.

And it SHOULD ONLY be used for the FINAL boss battle, as complies with the standard set by Final Fantasy, the real pioneer of this type of Final Boss Battle.

God. THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR A TRIAL OF FRIENDSHIP AND LOVE BATTLE!!!!

Ulquiorra is not the ultimate evil.

And now, we have a problem. Because this would have been the PERFECT way to defeat Aizen, but now, it will be so BEAT OUT.

God...
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Old 2008-10-07, 18:21   Link #197
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Cool

Man you guys ....
She is in an assisting role .. coming in to help out... not to say Ichigo can't take Ulquiorra by himself, BUT he did have trouble before so it might take ALL day (maybe 2 - 3 Manga installments, that's too LONG. )

I hope she helps him out SO we can go to the REAL Battle in K.. Town..
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Old 2008-10-07, 19:50   Link #198
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lol real battle. You know Ichigo was as strong as Byakuya before the mask right? That's not to say that Old man or someone else might be stronger still, particularly Kenpachi. It'd be easier to discern if they numbered captains in order of strength too.
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Old 2008-10-07, 20:48   Link #199
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Originally Posted by lucasd View Post
Yeah Nel released vs Noi unreleased, she pwns.

But seriously, only her cero eating power gave her advantage...
yeah but we can also consider Nel unreleased still has some advantage vs Noi unreleased (not bec of cero double)
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