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Old 2004-05-10, 04:11   Link #81
Marine-RX179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayearth
Although I see this as another example of the general stereotyping of H-games=porn :P
I agree......I mean I don't see why people got problem with Kanon being a H-game as for a story based around love and romance, the h-scenes is just part of it where two persons showing their affection for each other (as long as you don't look at it at a perverted angle), and that what lovers do.

I mean think about it realisticly......if you know of a couple that love each other very very much, would you expect them not to have sex at all? I guess not.....
It would actually be weird if they haven't done it at least even once.....
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Old 2004-05-10, 21:50   Link #82
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Yes, there are non-H versions of Kanon (and many other good selling ones). Basically just get the console versions, they are all (with a few exceptions from NEC on the Dreamcast) non-H and usually contains extra content to, err, "make up for it" :P Kanon also has a non-H PC version, but you get Sayuri's extra scenario and VOICE in the console versions.

As for people having problems with story based on H-games, I bet if you don't tell them it came from a H-game, they won't complain about anything. I mean, look at how many people would refuse to watch Kiminozo since it came from a H-game. Pretty much like Kanon, it's a perfectly fine story - same goes for Da Capo.
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Old 2004-05-11, 00:36   Link #83
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Originally Posted by rayearth
As for people having problems with story based on H-games, I bet if you don't tell them it came from a H-game, they won't complain about anything. I mean, look at how many people would refuse to watch Kiminozo since it came from a H-game. Pretty much like Kanon, it's a perfectly fine story - same goes for Da Capo.
Not to go too far off topic but, yeah, I really don't understand all the hate for anime based on ero-games. Really, they're just romantic dramas by any other name. I guess it's true that there are many stereotypes in the genre, and sometimes the characters tend to be a bit one-dimensional in that way. Plus, the fact that you, pretty much by necessity, have all the girls that are falling for the one main guy... it can seem a bit much at times (especially when the main guy is a real idiot or a jerk... what do they even like about that guy?!?). However, it's the stories that keep things interesting to me - each anime has its own characters, situations, and interactions that really brings the world to life. You really get attached to some of the characters and sometimes even grow to dislike certain others - you feel like you're right there with them. It's like getting pulled into an intense dream world, and sometimes it's a bit hard to pull yourself back. Even after the show's over, the memories stay - I can barely listen to the OP of Kanon, the ED of Kiminozo, or ED2 of Da Capo without remembering all the sad moments in those shows. That's what I like about the genre, anyways - it's an unforgettable escape into a dream world that leaves footprints on your heart.

Sorry, that ended up being kind of sappy!
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Old 2004-05-11, 01:24   Link #84
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Originally Posted by yukari_kiss
...it's hard to imagine that it is a H game, coz everyone has such a good storyline and all...
If you knew more about ero-games you mightn't be so surprised. If you can point out someplace else to get stories for shounen romance anime then please do so. Shounen manga isn't filling the bill lately...
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Old 2004-05-11, 03:52   Link #85
yukari_kiss
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Originally Posted by Marine-RX179
I agree......I mean I don't see why people got problem with Kanon being a H-game as for a story based around love and romance, the h-scenes is just part of it where two persons showing their affection for each other (as long as you don't look at it at a perverted angle), and that what lovers do.

I mean think about it realisticly......if you know of a couple that love each other very very much, would you expect them not to have sex at all? I guess not.....
It would actually be weird if they haven't done it at least even once.....
well, it is true that sex is just another way ppl show effection, but is that really all there is in the game? and even then, i guess ppl do come from different backgrounds and have different ideals on sex, like with me, even if two ppl love each other, i think there are better things than sex and even if that is a way to show "love", i don't think it's necessary. but i accept what everyone says, coz it's different ppl's ideals and all
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Old 2004-05-11, 04:20   Link #86
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Originally Posted by yukari_kiss
and even then, i guess ppl do come from different backgrounds and have different ideals on sex, like with me, even if two ppl love each other, i think there are better things than sex and even if that is a way to show "love", i don't think it's necessary.
I agree with you. However the question is not what is a better way for showing love, but the truth is in reality, there are only limited number of methods for that.
Talking (it can only get so far, as many people that are not naturally good at it, it's difficult to say anything more than just 'I love you'...even when that person truely love their partner), holding hands, hugging, kissing, watching a romantic scenery together, buying him/her a present, writting a poem (this takes real talent, which average person would lack in this area as well)......
So sex is just one of the limited number of methods that are available just like any other, as long as you don't think of it in a perverted way......

If there are any other methods that I forgot to mention here, do feel free to add more to the list.
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Old 2004-05-11, 05:18   Link #87
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Actually, I'd say there are limitless ways to express love. Anything can be an expression of love if the people involved see it as such.

The problem I have with sex is that society has cheapened it so much it has lost it's value as an expression of true love. And it entertainment, it seems to be the default goal of a relationship. That's crap. It's the emotion that's important, not sex. In something like an ero-game, it seems completely unnecessary, pointless, and there just to grab attention the of horny idiots with money to spend on games.

But that's based on my "background and ideals on sex".

EDIT: Which is why I like a lot of the anime romance series. Most times the goal is realizing you're in love and admitting it. It's about the emotion.
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Old 2004-05-11, 10:10   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
The problem I have with sex is that society has cheapened it so much it has lost it's value as an expression of true love. And it entertainment, it seems to be the default goal of a relationship. That's crap. It's the emotion that's important, not sex. In something like an ero-game, it seems completely unnecessary, pointless, and there just to grab attention the of horny idiots with money to spend on games.
All I can do is nod in agreement. I totally agree with you. There's something almost pure and idealistic about the romantic love portrayed in these shows that's almost completely lost in this culture. It's sad.
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Old 2004-05-11, 12:12   Link #89
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
All I can do is nod in agreement. I totally agree with you. There's something almost pure and idealistic about the romantic love portrayed in these shows that's almost completely lost in this culture. It's sad.
While I agree with you, I will hold up a counterpoint or two.

I used to have the same opinions about ero-games and the use of sex in them. But the I was rather surprised to find out that a couple of the anime titles I liked, including Kanon, where derived from these ero-games.

Now, if these games were nothing but excuses for some isolated loser to do the five knuckle shuffle for an evening, then why would they be turned into anime titles? Particularly well regarded anime titles at that.

What I found after check a few of the better titles, is that for the most part these ero-games and the anime derived from them all focus on the same thing. The story.

After all, thats what sells em both. The ero-games that focus on screwing everything that moves dont get turned into mainstream anime titles.

Kanon, Da Capo, KGNE, and Shingetsutan Tsukihime all were ero-games. All of em turned out to be outstanding anime titles. All of em focused on the same things, story.

Now, I agree completely that unecessary sex isnt needed. Kanon's strength was that the story didnt rely on it to survive, or to make an impact. But in other cases, its central to the story.

Would KGNE have been as strong as it was it you removed the sexual component from it? Now, I'm not saying that you need some graphic hentai nonsense, but if you look at KGNE as an example, Mitsuki and Takayuki's relationship, and that part of the story wouldnt have worked if you removed that portion of the story. It might have still been a story, but a lot of the underlying emotional impact wouldnt have been there anymore.

In the case of Kanon, the anime is good, and has no sex scenes. But according to a friend of mine who has played the Kanon game, there are some portions of the plot that dont get covered because of that. Is it a great loss? Nope, not in my opinion.

I think that when used appropriately, the element does add to the story. Would KGNE have been the same story with that element removed? Probably not. How about Tsukihime? If Shiki and Arcuid had not slept with each other at the end of Tsukihime, would the ending and the emotional impact have been the same? Nope.

While I agree that sex is overused and generally poorly used at that, it still does have a place when put in the proper context to any dramatic series. Sex by its very nature has some pretty serious emotional and psychological connotations in ALL cultures that simple "romantic love" does not convent entirely. When used properly, it does add some signifigant elements to a plot.
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Old 2004-05-11, 12:45   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Arwyn
While I agree with you, I will hold up a counterpoint or two.

I used to have the same opinions about ero-games and the use of sex in them. But the I was rather surprised to find out that a couple of the anime titles I liked, including Kanon, where derived from these ero-games.

Now, if these games were nothing but excuses for some isolated loser to do the five knuckle shuffle for an evening, then why would they be turned into anime titles? Particularly well regarded anime titles at that.

What I found after check a few of the better titles, is that for the most part these ero-games and the anime derived from them all focus on the same thing. The story.

After all, thats what sells em both. The ero-games that focus on screwing everything that moves dont get turned into mainstream anime titles.

Kanon, Da Capo, KGNE, and Shingetsutan Tsukihime all were ero-games. All of em turned out to be outstanding anime titles. All of em focused on the same things, story.

Now, I agree completely that unecessary sex isnt needed. Kanon's strength was that the story didnt rely on it to survive, or to make an impact. But in other cases, its central to the story.

Would KGNE have been as strong as it was it you removed the sexual component from it? Now, I'm not saying that you need some graphic hentai nonsense, but if you look at KGNE as an example, Mitsuki and Takayuki's relationship, and that part of the story wouldnt have worked if you removed that portion of the story. It might have still been a story, but a lot of the underlying emotional impact wouldnt have been there anymore.

In the case of Kanon, the anime is good, and has no sex scenes. But according to a friend of mine who has played the Kanon game, there are some portions of the plot that dont get covered because of that. Is it a great loss? Nope, not in my opinion.

I think that when used appropriately, the element does add to the story. Would KGNE have been the same story with that element removed? Probably not. How about Tsukihime? If Shiki and Arcuid had not slept with each other at the end of Tsukihime, would the ending and the emotional impact have been the same? Nope.

While I agree that sex is overused and generally poorly used at that, it still does have a place when put in the proper context to any dramatic series. Sex by its very nature has some pretty serious emotional and psychological connotations in ALL cultures that simple "romantic love" does not convent entirely. When used properly, it does add some signifigant elements to a plot.
That what I was trying to say as well....but clearly I wasn't able to clarify it enough for people understand......anyway, good job putting it in better prospective.
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Old 2004-05-11, 18:56   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
Point 1: Now, if these games were nothing but excuses for some isolated loser to do the five knuckle shuffle for an evening, then why would they be turned into anime titles? Particularly well regarded anime titles at that.

Point 2: Would KGNE have been as strong as it was it you removed the sexual component from it? Now, I'm not saying that you need some graphic hentai nonsense, but if you look at KGNE as an example, Mitsuki and Takayuki's relationship, and that part of the story wouldnt have worked if you removed that portion of the story. It might have still been a story, but a lot of the underlying emotional impact wouldnt have been there anymore.
Would KGNE have been the same story with that element removed? Probably not. How about Tsukihime?

Point 3: If Shiki and Arcuid had not slept with each other at the end of Tsukihime, would the ending and the emotional impact have been the same? Nope.
Point 1: The games are not excuses for a date with Midori, simply the graphic sex scenes are. Clearly these games have a great story that remains great without the sex. Makes the sex quite unnecesary and seemingly only there to attract buyers (let's see how CLANNAD does, that will be interesting).

Point 2: I think KGNE could have been better without the sex. I ended up disliking most of the characters because of it and other dumbass actions. It didn't make things more emotional at all, it made them sordid and tawdry.
EDIT: Actually, KGNE is a bad example. Sex was not simply an expression of love in that show. It was a story element. One I personally didn't like. Some people might not like supernatural elements in shows, without which, Kanon and Da Capo would obviously not work.

Regardless, you also seem to agree that there is no need for anything explicit.

Point 3: I'd say, "yes". Difference of opinion.
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Old 2004-05-11, 20:52   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Point 1: The games are not excuses for a date with Midori, simply the graphic sex scenes are. Clearly these games have a great story that remains great without the sex. Makes the sex quite unnecesary and seemingly only there to attract buyers (let's see how CLANNAD does, that will be interesting).

Point 2: I think KGNE could have been better without the sex. I ended up disliking most of the characters because of it and other dumbass actions. It didn't make things more emotional at all, it made them sordid and tawdry.
EDIT: Actually, KGNE is a bad example. Sex was not simply an expression of love in that show. It was a story element. One I personally didn't like. Some people might not like supernatural elements in shows, without which, Kanon and Da Capo would obviously not work.

Regardless, you also seem to agree that there is no need for anything explicit.

Point 3: I'd say, "yes". Difference of opinion.

I wholeheartedly agree that sex has been overused to the point of ridiculousness, but that doesnt render it meaningless. Sex is one of the basic elements that define us as living creatures and human, and as part of that, it defines a lot about who we are and how we see things. Not to mention how we interact with each others.

I think we agree on the overall "less is better" approach, I think the difference is over if it is valid to use it as a plot/storyline element. For some titles, it is hard to remove it entirely, and I think KGNE is a valid example. The story really doesnt function without it. But at the same time, I think that KGNE handled it pretty well, it wasnt overused, or meaningless, quite the opposite.

Obviously though, you disagreed with the way it was used, and thats perfectly valid. I disliked Mitsuki's actions for several reasons, and the way she used sex was one of them. But the fact that she did sleep with Takayuki was one of the defining points to her feelings of love for him and guilt twoards Haruka. The emotional attatchments that it brought to their relationship were one of the strong undercurrents to the whole dynamic in the story. Without it, the story becomes either a Victorian style "pining from afar" type romance, or a high school crush carried to extreme. Neither of which really would work. So, in that circumstance it really is central to the story, and not inappropriate.

Regardless though, we can agree to disagree. There is enough anime out there to accomodate a lot of differing viewpoints.

Good discussion!
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Old 2004-05-11, 21:25   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Arwyn
I think the difference is over if it is valid to use it as a plot/storyline element. For some titles, it is hard to remove it entirely, and I think KGNE is a valid example. The story really doesnt function without it. But at the same time, I think that KGNE handled it pretty well, it wasnt overused, or meaningless, quite the opposite.
I think I should clearify that I do think the sex in KGNE does indeed add to the drama of the series. Just not to the romance, in my opinion.

I was thinking along the lines of the "love leads to sex" statement someone made earlier as a way to accept sex scenes in romance ero-games. I wouldn't consider KGNE (based on teh series) to be an example of that situation. Sex was used differently in that series, it wasn't the "goal" of the relationship.
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Old 2004-05-11, 22:47   Link #94
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Really, I guess I don't find the sex scenes in the mainstream ero-game animes very offensive, I guess, because as was mentioned they are mostly plot devices, and not really there for the purpose of adding "erotic appeal". Sex is a normal part of a mature adult romantic relationship, so if it's treated as such and presented with a certain amount of restraint/dignity, I don't really have a problem with it.

What I do find sad, though, is the perception (true or otherwise) that games like Kanon can only sell because of their erotic content. I find that to be a shame because the stories are so strong on their own, as evidenced by the anime. (I guess Clannad will be a true test of this.) As I said above, if sex is used to really further the story and is presented tastefully (as is at least arguably the case in the KGNE and Tsukihime animes), then that's one thing. But in a lot of these games sex is used as a sales point and a central focus - I guess I won't say that's "wrong" (that's a whole other discussion), but I do find it a bit of a sad reflection of our sex-crazed society. I agree with TronDD; there are limitless ways to express love, and sex is only one of them - I feel that focusing on the act without the emotion really cheapens the whole thing.

Anyway, interesting turn this discussion has taken. In terms of Kanon, I will say, though, that I'd play either version if translated, but would love to see them have the courage to let the story stand on it's own and release the all-ages version. At this point, though, having any version of Kanon properly released in English is probably a pipe dream, unfortunately.
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Old 2004-05-11, 23:30   Link #95
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On that I agree completely. I would really like to see Kanon in english, just to see all of the "missing" things that other posters have mentioned. Obviously the anime and game sell themselves on telling a story, and drawning you into to it. That has been the hallmark of storytelling since man was sitting in caves.

Thats what sold me on Kanon. As I posted previously, the art didnt do anything for me, but the story pulled me in. Thats really the strength of all of these anime, and the ero-games they are derived from. You would think that would inspire more interest. Obviously that forumla works quite well in Japan, so reasonably, one would expect similar levels of interest outside of Japan, or at least equivelent numbers here in the US.

Unfortuantely, what we see get translated is about 1 quality title per 100 boob and lube fests for the knuckle shuffling crowd. What really bothers me is that despite the fact there is interest in games with stories, the marketing idiots go for the boobs and the quick bucks.

Typical, but depressing none the less.
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Old 2004-05-11, 23:36   Link #96
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I would like to say my bit.

The sex scenes in Kanon have nothing valuable to the plot line AT ALL. If it was so important then why do they have an all age version? The only part of the plot that it has to do with is to show your love strength in that girl. Just letting yuu know.


Air is somthing much to look foreward to
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Old 2004-05-11, 23:40   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
On that I agree completely. I would really like to see Kanon in english, just to see all of the "missing" things that other posters have mentioned. Obviously the anime and game sell themselves on telling a story, and drawning you into to it. That has been the hallmark of storytelling since man was sitting in caves.

Thats what sold me on Kanon. As I posted previously, the art didnt do anything for me, but the story pulled me in. Thats really the strength of all of these anime, and the ero-games they are derived from. You would think that would inspire more interest. Obviously that forumla works quite well in Japan, so reasonably, one would expect similar levels of interest outside of Japan, or at least equivelent numbers here in the US.

Unfortuantely, what we see get translated is about 1 quality title per 100 boob and lube fests for the knuckle shuffling crowd. What really bothers me is that despite the fact there is interest in games with stories, the marketing idiots go for the boobs and the quick bucks.

Typical, but depressing none the less.
There is a guide on the net and a translator who is working on the game. As well the anime art wasn't much to look at for many to like to look at. But I mean not all anime is the same. Anywho the art for the game is spectacular thats what drew me to the anime because I was a fan of the art. I ignore the hentai. If you can look past that bit then you can enjoy the art. Its a shame that some ero-games have beautiful art but is wasted with a game with no story.
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Old 2004-05-12, 03:15   Link #98
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If the story for a game is good enough, I think it doesn't matter if there's ero content or not with in it. But like some people suggested, for games that simply using the hentai materials to attract buyers (games that are just random banging without any decent, solid, moving storyline), that's completely different.
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Old 2004-05-12, 05:28   Link #99
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I just recently watched and finished this series, I get emotionally attach to the show so much. Man, I just cant believe what this series did to me. *plays EFZ*
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Old 2004-05-12, 22:47   Link #100
yukari_kiss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku
I would like to say my bit.

The sex scenes in Kanon have nothing valuable to the plot line AT ALL. If it was so important then why do they have an all age version? The only part of the plot that it has to do with is to show your love strength in that girl. Just letting yuu know.


Air is somthing much to look foreward to
very valid point! but i shouldn't say much since i haven't played the game myself, but what i can say is that based on the anime which had no hentai material watsoever, many ppl are still able to become emotionally attach to it (hehehe as i'm a sufferer of that :P) and sex has been cheapened in the world we live in today and i have to say, for a lot of ppl, having sex in a game or anime become fanservices which devalue the true meaning the sex in the game might be trying to convey as love. and for me, having sex in games like kanon becomes a big question mark, why? just simple hugging and words can convey the idea across just as well and words...oh yes words, hehehe some of you might think, that's cheesy, but hey it's anime, nothing's real, it's good to just feel warmth in the heart by imagining of such possibilities of happening to oneself someday won't hurt
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