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Old 2008-10-15, 14:44   Link #7701
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Because Lelouch's idea for world peace grants a future, and is a lot less bloody than Schneizel's idea for world peace, which doesn't grant a future. Oh, and because with Lelouch's plan, Suzaku would still get his revenge for Euphie.
suzaku did not know about shnizel's plan
and revenge for euphie was just one thing he wanted
he wanted to be the KoO to achive change from within the system
and that would have been at his reach

and i want to make this clear
i dont think that suzaku's actions are dumb
i think the plot was dumb to allow such actions since that was a complete 18 from what they had been building for all the season
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:44   Link #7702
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and thats the problem
they shouldnt have had that month
suzaku should have been after lulu's head from the word go
he just had his life changing breakdown and he just sealed the deal with shnizel (and killed the emp too, or atleast thats what he'd tell shnizel)
why risk all that to join a man who should have been his worst enemy (with plenty of reasons for him to be) and start on a path that would plunge the world into all out war when he could just as easily handed shnizel lulu's head
got the KoO title
and ruled as the KoO under shnizel (who at that point was close to signing a peace deal with the OOBK thus ending the war
Because Schienzel was no different than Lelouch, his peace is to rule by fear in which people will never be able to move forward because he had the Damocles. Sure Cornelia mentioned in a diferent time Schenzel would have been a excellent ruler but he had lost faith in the world (most likely due to the SAZ incident)

@Rising Dragon
I'm more inclined to believe that clearing her name was his top priority at that point.
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:45   Link #7703
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku did not know about shnizel's plan
and revenge for euphie was just one thing he wanted
he wanted to be the KoO to achive change from within the system
and that would have been at his reach
Yes, because changing from within had done soooo well for him so far.
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:46   Link #7704
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yes, because changing from within had done soooo well for him so far.
he wasnt whole hearted about it before
now he was (to the point of killing the emp inorder to achive it)
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:47   Link #7705
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
Because Schienzel was no different than Lelouch, his peace is to rule by fear in which people will never be able to move forward because he had the Damocles. Sure Cornelia mentioned in a diferent time Schenzel would have been a excellent ruler but he had lost faith in the world (most likely due to the SAZ incident)
The problem with this is that neither he nor Lelouch would have any idea about Schneizel's plans, other than Charles' very vague warning. They had to take over Britannia to learn about what he was up to.
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:48   Link #7706
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he wasnt whole hearted about it before
now he was (to the point of killing the emp inorder to achive it)
Except such a thing is, you know, radically different from the "changing from within" philosophy.
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:50   Link #7707
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Except such a thing is, you know, radically different from the "changing from within" philosophy.
how is that differnt from what he was trying to do before ep 19
he was still trying to be the KoO
just for a different emperor (a man who has as much of a right to the throne as charles)
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:55   Link #7708
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how is that differnt from what he was trying to do before ep 19
he was still trying to be the KoO
just for a different emperor (a man who has as much of a right to the throne as charles)
Becoming the Knight of One was the perfect embodiment of the "Change from Within" philosophy. He'd ascend through the ranks to become the Knight of One, choose Area 11 to govern, and show everyone else how you're supposed to govern a conquered territory, thus changing the system.

After FLEIJA, he said "Fuck it" and went to kill the emperor, because instead of just changing the system, he'd just get Japan out of their hands. Fuck showing people how its done properly, fuck changing the system, just get it done as soon as possible. In other words, how Lelouch would have done it.
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Old 2008-10-15, 14:59   Link #7709
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Becoming the Knight of One was the perfect embodiment of the "Change from Within" philosophy. He'd ascend through the ranks to become the Knight of One, choose Area 11 to govern, and show everyone else how you're supposed to govern a conquered territory, thus changing the system.

After FLEIJA, he said "Fuck it" and went to kill the emperor, because instead of just changing the system, he'd just get Japan out of their hands. Fuck showing people how its done properly, fuck changing the system, just get it done as soon as possible. In other words, how Lelouch would have done it.
japan would still be in britannian hands
and his becoming the KoO after ep 19 would have resulted in the same thing as him becoming the KoO before that
lelouch wouldnt have done it that way
he would have taken it by force (as he had tried to do as zero)
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Old 2008-10-15, 15:21   Link #7710
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
japan would still be in britannian hands
and his becoming the KoO after ep 19 would have resulted in the same thing as him becoming the KoO before that
lelouch wouldnt have done it that way
he would have taken it by force (as he had tried to do as zero)
Well technically he did change the system just not from with in. He stood up for Lelouch because Shirley and Euphie understood that he was fighting for everyone's happiness, everyone's justice but his means did would not create that end which is why he was still willing to kill him for Euphie's murder. He was against Lelouch because he sought the total destruction of Britannia, making the people who were forced to follow along with the corrupt villains' schemes look like villains or accomplices. People like Nunally, governors who are innocent of wrongdoing but affiliated with the evil empire non the less would be seen as criminals and hated through out the entire world. Hate would still be there, prejudice would still be there, and there would still be no justice. That's the problem with taking it by force, whoever wins is the good guy and whoever loses is the bad guy. Yet Lelouch refuses to conform to the system, even if it could be redeemed because that would be like giving approval to the Empire for its past transgressions. Thus they had to find a common ground where no lines could be drawn and everybody could be on the side of justice. If your saying the Zero Requiem plan was wrong and they should have continued it Lelouch's way then I'd have to disagree.
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Old 2008-10-15, 15:23   Link #7711
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
japan would still be in britannian hands
and his becoming the KoO after ep 19 would have resulted in the same thing as him becoming the KoO before that
lelouch wouldnt have done it that way
he would have taken it by force (as he had tried to do as zero)
It would NOT, however, be in Britannia's control, it'd be in Suzaku's control. Which was the entire point of becoming Knight of One in the first place. Suzaku just had his ideals and his principles in getting to that. And then threw those away when he saw they weren't just working.

And in a way, the result is the same. Both would've taken it by force, and Suzaku going to kill the Emperor is taking it by force. Its no different from what Lelouch would've done.
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Old 2008-10-15, 15:53   Link #7712
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Lol Yeah I think both their ways were a little hypocritical and the same at the same time the same. Suzaku's way totally gave the Britannians a free pass to act like an asshole and would be too complacent in his naive belief that the rest of the people in power would automatically change because he was a good role model. You have to take action to root out corruption. Lelouch's way would be equally ineffective. Using lies and betrayals are contradictions of what they stand for and him leading the whole thing to route out corruption would eventually lead to constant war and fighting since people would eventually rebel against Lelouch as well since if they conform to his forced justice it would be condoning his past transgressions to bring about peace in which he'd be no different than the Britannians.
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Old 2008-10-15, 15:54   Link #7713
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
It would NOT, however, be in Britannia's control, it'd be in Suzaku's control. Which was the entire point of becoming Knight of One in the first place. Suzaku just had his ideals and his principles in getting to that. And then threw those away when he saw they weren't just working.

And in a way, the result is the same. Both would've taken it by force, and Suzaku going to kill the Emperor is taking it by force. Its no different from what Lelouch would've done.
It would still be under Britannia's control. The Knight of One is allowed to govern any territory he wishes. That is all. Japan would still be a Britannian territory, paying Britannian taxes and all that jazz. Ignoring what Schneziel's policy decisions would be for the moment, at the very best he could restore its old name and maybe give the people equal rights, though the latter I doubt he would have the authority even as Knight of One to accomplish. Knight of One isn't some cure-all that would make Japan independent again, even if Suzaku wanted to treat it as such.
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Old 2008-10-15, 16:32   Link #7714
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So you're saying they should've had Suzaku kill Lelouch and end the series right there, infuriating countless fans?
The fans ARE the problem.
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Old 2008-10-15, 16:33   Link #7715
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It would still be under Britannia's control. The Knight of One is allowed to govern any territory he wishes. That is all. Japan would still be a Britannian territory, paying Britannian taxes and all that jazz. Ignoring what Schneziel's policy decisions would be for the moment, at the very best he could restore its old name and maybe give the people equal rights, though the latter I doubt he would have the authority even as Knight of One to accomplish. Knight of One isn't some cure-all that would make Japan independent again, even if Suzaku wanted to treat it as such.
Well your right it wouldn't be independent from Britannia but I still think he has free reign to improve it and clearance for a high level of autonomy. I think economically and militarily he'd have to answer to Shniezel and provide Britannia with the appropriate trite and defense but governing does entail making laws. Things such having their own military is out of the question but equality is possible. It could have been like China's special administrative zones i.e. Hong Kong and Macau. A person to oversee the country can make laws, that do not come from the mainland. "With listed exceptions, national laws applying in the mainland do not apply in a SAR. These listed exceptions must involve diplomacy, national defence or something beyond the scope of the SAR's autonomy." So being Knight of One can be considered a position where he can grant Japan independent self autonomous government. Even after Suzaku has died, unless Shniezel wants to look like a total prick and specifically punish or pick on Japan for doing nothing wrong by taking away the SAR, why would he do so?

This is where I got the SAR high autonomy idea from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ee_of_autonomy
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Old 2008-10-15, 17:18   Link #7716
morbosfist
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Well your right it wouldn't be independent from Britannia but I still think he has free reign to improve it and clearance for a high level of autonomy. I think economically and militarily he'd have to answer to Shniezel and provide Britannia with the appropriate trite and defense but governing does entail making laws. Things such having their own military is out of the question but equality is possible.
Possible, I'll admit, but only under Schneziel, and I seriously doubt Suzaku took this into account when deciding to get the rank the fast way. If we're to take his plan at its base level, Charles would not be likely to allow an entire territory to have equal rights with Britannians. Euphy had to give up her right to the throne just to get a small region under Fuji. Suzaku can't exactly do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
It could have been like China's special administrative zones i.e. Hong Kong and Macau. A person to oversee the country can make laws, that do not come from the mainland. "With listed exceptions, national laws applying in the mainland do not apply in a SAR. These listed exceptions must involve diplomacy, national defence or something beyond the scope of the SAR's autonomy." So being Knight of One can be considered a position where he can grant Japan independent self autonomous government. Even after Suzaku has died, unless Shniezel wants to look like a total prick and specifically punish or pick on Japan for doing nothing wrong by taking away the SAR, why would he do so?
Again, that is a small zone, not the entire nation. Schneizel might allow it, though it would make more sense just to free the nation, but Charles would ever allow him to grant the entire nation independence. Sakuradite is too importance a resource to let go like that.
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Old 2008-10-15, 17:58   Link #7717
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Possible, I'll admit, but only under Schneziel, and I seriously doubt Suzaku took this into account when deciding to get the rank the fast way. If we're to take his plan at its base level, Charles would not be likely to allow an entire territory to have equal rights with Britannians. Euphy had to give up her right to the throne just to get a small region under Fuji. Suzaku can't exactly do the same.

Again, that is a small zone, not the entire nation. Schneizel might allow it, though it would make more sense just to free the nation, but Charles would ever allow him to grant the entire nation independence. Sakuradite is too importance a resource to let go like that.
I don't know, the world's a big place. What can one country ruling themselves with no military do? It's not like they won't have to answer to Britannia at all. I'm not sure you have the right to be so pessimistic of this goal even with Charles in play since he obviously proved his strength, loyalty, and value to the Empire by being of knight of one (closest advisor, remover of his enemies, and guy you trust with your life) so how can even Charles deny him of this request. Sakuradite isn't even an issue since all natural resources i.e. economic and military affairs go directly under the Empire's jurisdiction. I really don't see any downside other than your bias of Charles being a mean ass prick which I think your bias is leaning towards. It would be Japan like it is...in real life....
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Old 2008-10-15, 18:03   Link #7718
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Euphy had to give up her right to the throne just to get a small region under Fuji.
I haven't been following this conversation, but this caught my eye, so I figured I'd comment on it. This is frequently misunderstood, but it's really the anime's fault. Euphemia did not give up her right to the throne to procure the SAR. As her conversation with Lelouch indicated, it was the price so that he, as Zero, would be accepted as part of the SAR. The anime sadly doesn't really clarify past that point, and you just assume that Lelouch and Euphemia both understand the implications of what they are talking about.

In the novels though, it's expanded upon. Basically, any member of the royal family can give up their birthright in return for a universal pardon, basically a get out of jail free card. And that's what Euphemia traded her birthright for. A pardon for Zero for his crimes against Britannia, even his murder of Clovis. This is why Lelouch was so touched by the gesture, especially when she added that she did it for Nunnally's sake, so that the two of them wouldn't be seperated.

Of course, this was never honored as it was a secret that would be announced in a few days, and then well... the incident that happened shortly after put an end to that deal.

This is also why Cornelia was so furious with Euphemia. She didn't approve of the SAR, but it was pardoning their brother's murderer that really set her off.
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Old 2008-10-15, 18:05   Link #7719
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I haven't been following this conversation, but this caught my eye, so I figured I'd comment on it. This is frequently misunderstood, but it's really the anime's fault. Euphemia did not give up her right to the throne to procure the SAR. As her conversation with Lelouch indicated, it was the price so that he, as Zero, would be accepted as part of the SAR. The anime sadly doesn't really clarify past that point, and you just assume that Lelouch and Euphemia both understand the implications of what they are talking about.

In the novels though, it's expanded upon. Basically, any member of the royal family can give up their birthright in return for a universal pardon, basically a get out of jail free card. And that's what Euphemia traded her birthright for. A pardon for Zero for his crimes against Britannia, even his murder of Clovis. This is why Lelouch was so touched by the gesture, especially when she added that she did it for Nunnally's sake, so that the two of them wouldn't be seperated.

Of course, this was never honored as it was a secret that would be announced in a few days, and then well... the incident that happened shortly after put an end to that deal.

This is also why Cornelia was so furious with Euphemia. She didn't approve of the SAR, but it was pardoning their brother's murderer that really set her off.
Wow really? This makes me rage even more! Lelouch you prick. I was wondering why Nunally wasn't suffering from the same penalties when her name was restored.
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Old 2008-10-15, 18:55   Link #7720
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Thanks for the clarification. Nunnally wouldn't suffer. The fact that she was delivered to Charles aside, she can't be held responsible for the crimes of Zero, especially when they didn't reveal his identity.
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