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Old 2008-10-21, 18:19   Link #2201
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
It's the view inside the cockpit. There isn't the reverberation that we can hear when the camera is outside and when the mic of the KMF is activated. I think his mic is activated. And again, it's just my opinion Mr Know.it.all
Opinion or not, it should least make sense. You're ignoring the obvious to make it work.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:19   Link #2202
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
They've always thought they'd be able to win. Suzaku thought he could win against uber-Guren until he realized just how fucked he was. That doesn't change anything. Lelouch knows that he has never been able to beat her decisively on even ground.
That's going to sound crazy, but maybe Lelouch, like Suzaku, thought the Live Geass would allow him to beat Kallen this time.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Lelouch never plans on such a flimsy circumstance. They were inside Damocles with its shields active and no possible way for anyone to enter. To claim that they could somehow predict Gino being on board, which they clearly didn't expect, and that he would destroy the shielding system just to let Kallen finish the job is ridiculous. There's too many unknowns for them to have possibly conceived for him to "die" as he did. They would have arranged for him to die some other way, they just got lucky.
Lucky I never said that, then. All I said was that Lelouch probably thought Kallen would find a way to get to them at some point and that this was their best chance to fake Suzaku's death. They couldn't make it too obvious, and they would have had to find another way to do that had Kallen failed to meet their expectations. I said it was their best option, not that Lelouch was God and knew everything that would happen.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:24   Link #2203
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
That's going to sound crazy, but maybe Lelouch, like Suzaku, thought the Live Geass would allow him to beat Kallen this time.
I'll give you that much, but Lelouch still doesn't plan on such a flimsy pretext.

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Lucky I never said that, then. All I said was that Lelouch probably thought Kallen would find a way to get to them at some point and that this was their best chance to fake Suzaku's death. They couldn't make it too obvious, and they would have had to find another way to do that had Kallen failed to meet their expectations. I said it was their best option, not that Lelouch was God and knew everything that would happen.
Lelouch doesn't plan like that. Suzaku was trying to win. One doesn't try to win if the plan is to lose. It was a lucky break, and couldn't be anything more than that no matter how hard you try to rationalize it. The random set of circumstances, their dialog, and everything else shows they were playing for keeps in that battle and nothing less.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:25   Link #2204
bladeofdarkness
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once they were inside the damocles the battle with the OOBK was done
they were going to use the damocles inorder to force a surrender (which he did)
after that there would be no way for suzaku and kallen to fight
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:26   Link #2205
Narona
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Opinion or not, it should least make sense. You're ignoring the obvious to make it work.
Could say the same thing to you. And that will be my last reply to you. I despise the ill mannered people.

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Originally Posted by Eliarine"
That's going to sound crazy, but maybe Lelouch, like Suzaku, thought the Live Geass would allow him to beat Kallen this time.
Suzaku tried hard to make it looks like that he was not acting. He had to destroy the gurren (in a way that kallen can't use it when the albion will be destroyed) and had to plan how the albion would have to be destroyed.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:26   Link #2206
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Lelouch doesn't plan like that. Suzaku was trying to win. One doesn't try to win if the plan is to lose. It was a lucky break, and couldn't be anything more than that no matter how hard you try to rationalize it. The random set of circumstances, their dialog, and everything else shows they were playing for keeps in that battle and nothing less.
And like I said before, it could also be that the plan was to lose convincingly, but that Suzaku didn't expect it to be that difficult. Hence his surprise.

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Suzaku tried hard to make it looks like that he was not acting. He had to destroy the gurren (in a way that kallen can't use it when the albion will be destroyed) and had to plan how the albion would have to be detsroyed.
Yeah, in my enthusiasm I wrote beat when I meant er...basically what you just said
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:29   Link #2207
morbosfist
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And like I said before, it could also be that the plan was to lose convincingly, but that Suzaku didn't expect it to be that difficult. Hence his surprise.
That doesn't fit with his dialog. He was going for a decisive blow, which means he wanted to win.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:30   Link #2208
Eliarine
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That doesn't fit with his dialog. He was going for a decisive blow, which means he wanted to win.
Suzaku's plan was to fake his death, and prevent Kallen from stopping Lelouch. I'd say his dialogue fits.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:30   Link #2209
Narona
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Yeah, in my enthusiasm I wrote beat when I meant er...basically what you just said
If the guren would have still been able to fight, she would have destroyed the damocles, or at least, the part where the Freija were launched. So he had to do it like this.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:32   Link #2210
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Suzaku's plan was to fake his death, and prevent Kallen from stopping Lelouch. I'd say his dialogue fits.
He's trying to strike her and gets blocked, at which point he says the line. Your scenario doesn't make any sense in that context.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:35   Link #2211
Eliarine
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If the guren would have still been able to fight, she would have destroyed the damocles, or at least, the part where the Freija were launched. So he had to do it like this.
Yeah, my point exactly. Kallen had to be stopped at that point, that was the first priority. Had she still been able to fight, she would have stopped Lelouch, which was not an option.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:40   Link #2212
Narona
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Yeah, my point exactly. Kallen had to be stopped at that point, that was the first priority. Had she still been able to fight, she would have stopped Lelouch, which was not an option.
The only thing I could think about is that lelouch was surprised by Gino. But apparently, Gino did something "just as planned". He planned to do what he has done, so the Guren was able to enter the Blaze. But imo, Lelouch thought that something like that will happen. Lelouch was not stupid, he knew that he will not be the only one to think about many solutions.
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:45   Link #2213
Eliarine
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The only thing I could think about is that lelouch was surprised by Gino. But apparently, Gino did something "just as planned". He planned to do what he has done, so the Guren was able to enter the Blaze. But imo, Lelouch thought that something like that will happen. Lelouch was not stupid, he knew that he will not be the only one to think about many solutions.
I think Lelouch planned on Kallen trying to stop them, which might be why he was surprised when Gino, of all people, turned up xD But since Gino's objective was to let Kallen in, in a way, it went with what Lelouch had thought: that she would find a way to get to them. He just didn't expect her to work hand in hand with Gino to make it happen
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Old 2008-10-21, 18:56   Link #2214
Narona
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I think Lelouch planned on Kallen trying to stop them, which might be why he was surprised when Gino, of all people, turned up xD But since Gino's objective was to let Kallen in, in a way, it went with what Lelouch had thought: that she would find a way to get to them. He just didn't expect her to work hand in hand with Gino to make it happen
I think Lelouch knew that "in case he and suzaku would be able to pass through the Blaze", schneizel or someone would have thought about a solution to counter them. Maybe not schneizel, he seemed so sure that the fleija can't be stopped, but Gino and Kallen thought about that.

What surprised lelouch, imo, is gino's knightmare. More powerful than what was planned by lelouch.
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Old 2008-10-21, 19:07   Link #2215
Eliarine
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I think Lelouch knew that "in case he and suzaku would be able to pass through the Blaze", schneizel or someone would have thought about a solution to counter them. Maybe not schneizel, he seemed so sure that the fleija can't be stopped, but Gino and Kallen thought about that.
Maybe; after all, everytime I tell myself something is way too complicated for Lelouch to have planned it that far ahead, the anime proves me wrong with crazy stunts like the Schneizel video conversation xD; Lelouch could have had a thousand different alternatives in his head for the last battle for all we know.

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What surprised lelouch, imo, is gino's knightmare. More powerful than what was planned by lelouch.
I didn't think about that, good point.
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Old 2008-10-21, 19:15   Link #2216
Narona
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Maybe; after all, everytime I tell myself something is way too complicated for Lelouch to have planned it that far ahead, the anime proves me wrong with crazy stunts like the Schneizel video conversation xD; Lelouch could have had a thousand different alternatives in his head for the last battle for all we know.

I didn't think about that, good point.
Not entirely true. To pass through the Blaze, he had only one solution (read: Nina + his own talent + Suzaku). But after this, I think he thought about some alternatives. As you said, even when he seems surprised, almost every time, he is not so much.

One of the few times when he seems really surprised and unable to do anything is on the Ikaruga, but then Rolo saved him. But, he lost his mind when he thought that nunnaly died, so from this point to when rolo saved him, he was not the lelouch we know, the one who plans everything.
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Old 2008-10-21, 19:17   Link #2217
bladeofdarkness
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actually he is still planning about what to do in ep 19
he only gives up after he spots shnizel (and understands that what ever he does there is no way out)
and even then he still has a plan (only its not made to save him)
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Old 2008-10-21, 19:29   Link #2218
Eliarine
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Not entirely true. To pass through the Blaze, he had only one solution (read: Nina + his own talent + Suzaku). But after this, I think he thought about some alternatives. As you said, even when he seems surprised, almost every time, he is not so much.
Yeah, some parts of the plan were very precise and couldn't be altered, (like this one, since the only other alternative was to...fail and die) but I think Lelouch had already thought about what could happen in other situations according to how things developped. After all, he is a chess master, that's what he does.

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One of the few times when he seems really surprised and unable to do anything is on the Ikaruga, but then Rolo saved him. But, he lost his mind when he thought that nunnaly died, so from this point to when rolo saved him, he was not the lelouch we know, the one who plans everything.
Yup, Lelouch loses his genius when people he loves are in danger (...or dead >.>). He was also lost when he first found out Suzaku was the pilot of the Lancelot, and remained speechless for a long moment while Kallen was screaming for him to give orders
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Old 2008-10-21, 19:43   Link #2219
Narona
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Yeah, some parts of the plan were very precise and couldn't be altered, (like this one, since the only other alternative was to...fail and die) but I think Lelouch had already thought about what could happen in other situations according to how things developped. After all, he is a chess master, that's what he does.

Yup, Lelouch loses his genius when people he loves are in danger (...or dead >.>). He was also lost when he first found out Suzaku was the pilot of the Lancelot, and remained speechless for a long moment while Kallen was screaming for him to give orders
Of course I think he had some other solutions about the rest, but not about the Blaze. That's why he was so upset about Nina. What was great though, is that he never lost his calm. He and suzaku did it in 19 seconds and 0.04 seconds XD. So my point was that some times, you have only one solution. And as you said, when they tried to disable the Fleija, it was "live or die".

Don't forget when shirley died. He seemed to not have lost his mind, but what he did at the cult proves that he had turned a bit crazy. Things could have turned much more wrong because he used a bad strategy imo: brut force.
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Old 2008-10-21, 20:49   Link #2220
youngde
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I have to say, some of you aren't giving Kallen the credit she deserves. She won, fair and square against Suzaku. He had his live on hax, she had the superior frame; they were even, but she BARELY pulled off the victory, albeit, not enough to actually keep going and stop Lelouch. It would be horrible planning on their part to do something so unpredictible as depend on Suzaku to stop Kallen, but not get killed or kill her in the process. It would be an incredibly stupid way of doing things when they could have just faked his death much easier in the two month gap between capturing Damocles and Lelouch's 'death.'

There are too many things that could have gone wrong. And don't give me the 'he predicted Schneizel's answers speech.' Lelouch and Schneizel think very much alike (their ideals and dreams are very different, but they think alike). Knowing what Schneizel knows and what kind of person he is, he could extrapolate from that.

Lelouch, however, was clearly not expecting Kallen to bust into Avalon, etc. He did not have her factored in perfectly. And at any rate, he knew that Kallen had superior mech hax and Suzaku had 'live on' hax; other than that, they had always prooved to be about even. He would have been a fool to have something so important be determined by the flip of a coin.

Also, Suzaku himself admitted that the fight was even; saying that he was talking to Kallen makes no sense to me. Both of them appear to be talking to themselves as to why neither can win. At any rate, to have the final match up between the two main mechs in the series to be staged would be a major slap in the face. It seems to me in the end the Black King and Queen won their respectively battles, which is fine by me...artistically and thematically.

youngde, signing off.
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