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Old 2008-10-22, 20:14   Link #1201
SethEng
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Now compare this to a VB-6 Konig Monster which flies, and which has four main cannons. If those main cannons are direct descendants of the original HWR-00 Mark II Monster, they're each 40mm-bored railcannons.
Just to be picky, and to point this out before someone else does, the cannons should be 40cm, or 400mm, but more likely 406mm or 16" guns. 16" shells are pretty massive, although without knowing the exactly shell mass and velocity, we can't really be sure what kind of recoil we're dealing with exactly. 16" guns were, for those who don't know, used on 40,000+ ton battleships, with the Monster carrying half or nearly half of the amount of guns typically carried. To put it simply, the Monster's guns have a lot of boom.

And you would definately not want to fire them unbraced in the atmosphere or while flying either in space or in the atmosphere. Especially in space where losing thrust is bad.
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Old 2008-10-22, 21:17   Link #1202
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If it used American type shells....1,900 pounds for HC or 2,700 pounds for AP...per shell depending on use. (861.8 kg or 1,225 kg)

If we are talking Japanese 16"....938 kg - 1,020 kg with 1,000 kg being more common before the war.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm

If we assume they used American types (since they used the F-14 as a base for the VF-1), then most shells would be 1,900 pounds (862 kg) as used by the United States Navy during the 1980s and 1990s. The Navy had no need for AP shells at that time since there were no other battleships with any amount of armor to combat during that time period. The American gun is the 16"/50 cal Mark 7.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2008-10-22 at 21:29.
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Old 2008-10-22, 21:21   Link #1203
Haesslich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SethEng View Post
Just to be picky, and to point this out before someone else does, the cannons should be 40cm, or 400mm, but more likely 406mm or 16" guns. 16" shells are pretty massive, although without knowing the exactly shell mass and velocity, we can't really be sure what kind of recoil we're dealing with exactly. 16" guns were, for those who don't know, used on 40,000+ ton battleships, with the Monster carrying half or nearly half of the amount of guns typically carried. To put it simply, the Monster's guns have a lot of boom.

And you would definately not want to fire them unbraced in the atmosphere or while flying either in space or in the atmosphere. Especially in space where losing thrust is bad.
Indeed. Someone else pointed the same thing out to me after I had dinner, and I screwed up my units. Each one of those has three times the diameter of an M1A2 Abrams' main gun. And there's four of them.

In contrast, the largest mobile artillery piece currently deployed by the US Military is the M109A6 Paladin... which uses a 155mm (15.5 cm) bore. Big motherfucking rounds, which can be reaction warheads... and the equivalent of an Iowa-class battleship's main guns as you pointed out. The nice thing about railguns, in theory, is that you can adjust the velocity by varying the charge used to throw the round... or have more KE involved as you can ramp up the power.

And should I point out again that the thing's braced anyhow on several struts, two of which happen to be heavily-engineered 'legs' for Destroid/Battroid mode? I'm not even going to address 'losing thrust is bad' - but that the forces here are incredibly high, and I'd want to deal with it as 'part' of a 9500t mass (like a Guantanimo-class cruiser's size) rather than as a measly 100t one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If it used American type shells....1,900 pounds for HC or 2,700 pounds for AP...per shell depending on use. (861.8 kg or 1,225 kg)

If we are talking Japanese 16"....938 kg - 1,020 kg with 1,000 kg being more common before the war.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm
They wouldn't be shells - or at least, not self-propelled ones. Also, we're not sure if the mass of that shell would be all metal for railgun use, or what the weight of a reaction warhead would be. But, even if we're going to be conservative and say that the normal 'round' for one of those is just a KE round and fairly light (less than a ton)... that's an awful lot of force there to deal with in the 'recoil'.

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-22 at 21:33.
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Old 2008-10-22, 21:39   Link #1204
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The old Nuclear Warhead shells had a charge of 15-20 kilotons at a weight of 1,900 pounds (for the shell) Propellant (powder bags) weigh between 300 and 660 pounds depending of the charge used. Of course this was for conventional guns with a muzzle velocity ranging from 1,800 fps to almost 2,700 fps.
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Old 2008-10-22, 21:48   Link #1205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
*snip*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
*snip*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
*snip*
Awesome posts mean I don't need to reply. Good job, guys.

One thing I will touch on is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
HELL NO. Legs have more PSI than treads ever will. You are concentrating an enormous amount of force on just two small points. Treads distribute weight evenly over a much larger area. Legs will not only devastate a road, they will sink into soft ground and get stuck.
With regards to Daigo's argument that the weight of the Monster on the legs would drive it into the ground, cracking everything, I would like to refer everyone to Macross Zero episode 5. Bird Man is active, the rest of the UN fleet has been shot to hell, and nukes have been authorised. The Asuka-II thus deploys a Monster to the flight deck - 300 tons of pure destroid. It takes slow, ponderous steps to the #1 Catapult, and locks into firing position, back stabiliser leg deployed.

The flight deck is undamaged from the Monster's steps.

No carrier captain will allow a tracked vehicle on his flight deck because tracks will damage the deck surface, and he needs that surface because if it's damanged, he can't launch or recover his fighters. However, note how the Monster easily moves into position, like the pilot has drilled this before (actually he MUST have done this before, since in militaries they won't let you do anything if you haven't drilled it), and then ask yourself this: if legs are more damaging to surfaces because the weight is concentrated, why is it that the captain has allowed the Koenig Monster to drill there? If the surface is all damaged, how the heck was Fokker able to launch from that same cat? (Carriers do not carry more than the basic tools for repair. Repair of something huge - like the flight deck getting all torn and chewed up - would have to be done at dock.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
In contrast, the largest mobile artillery piece currently deployed by the US Military is the M109A6 Paladin... which uses a 155mm (15.5 cm) bore. Big motherfucking rounds, which can be reaction warheads... and the equivalent of an Iowa-class battleship's main guns as you pointed out. The nice thing about railguns, in theory, is that you can adjust the velocity by varying the charge used to throw the round... or have more KE involved as you can ramp up the power.

And should I point out again that the thing's braced anyhow on several struts, two of which happen to be heavily-engineered 'legs' for Destroid/Battroid mode? I'm not even going to address 'losing thrust is bad' - but that the forces here are incredibly high, and I'd want to deal with it as 'part' of a 9500t mass (like a Guantanimo-class cruiser's size) rather than as a measly 100t one.
There's 2 pics on Wikipedia of the Iowa firing a broadside: here and here. Look at the shockwaves.

If I'm going to be throwing that sort of firepower around, I want to be braced against something. The Iowa is braced on the water, afterall (to a certain extent, but it's still something, versus the nothingness of space).

Also, one more nail in the coffin for "use the gun recoil to manuver": Ammo. Ammo is always at a premium, especially for the big guns. There's only so much of it you can carry, and wasting it just to turn is pointless. Not to mention that when you need it, you'll be combat ineffective since you're out of ammo, not to mention the ass-chewing you'll get when you RTB and debrief. Wasting ammo due to having crap weapons - early Sidewinders and the Sahfrir-1 missile were notoriously inacccurate - is understandable. Deliberately wasting your ammo just to turn? An ass-chewing by the CO, at the very least.
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Old 2008-10-22, 22:10   Link #1206
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We intererupt this rebutting Daigo's statements to death for some late breaking news.



MW member DarkReaper has discovered an unknown ship class in Macross Plus OVA episode 1.

It is not an ARMD (original or modern), a Guantanamo or an Uruga.

Could this be the mysterious Haruna class which we do not have a picture or line art?

The same class of ship which Maximillian Jenius first commanded and where his 7th daughter was born, the Red Moon.
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Old 2008-10-22, 23:16   Link #1207
Haesslich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
One thing I will touch on is this:


With regards to Daigo's argument that the weight of the Monster on the legs would drive it into the ground, cracking everything, I would like to refer everyone to Macross Zero episode 5. Bird Man is active, the rest of the UN fleet has been shot to hell, and nukes have been authorised. The Asuka-II thus deploys a Monster to the flight deck - 300 tons of pure destroid. It takes slow, ponderous steps to the #1 Catapult, and locks into firing position, back stabiliser leg deployed.

The flight deck is undamaged from the Monster's steps.

No carrier captain will allow a tracked vehicle on his flight deck because tracks will damage the deck surface, and he needs that surface because if it's damanged, he can't launch or recover his fighters. However, note how the Monster easily moves into position, like the pilot has drilled this before (actually he MUST have done this before, since in militaries they won't let you do anything if you haven't drilled it), and then ask yourself this: if legs are more damaging to surfaces because the weight is concentrated, why is it that the captain has allowed the Koenig Monster to drill there? If the surface is all damaged, how the heck was Fokker able to launch from that same cat? (Carriers do not carry more than the basic tools for repair. Repair of something huge - like the flight deck getting all torn and chewed up - would have to be done at dock.)


There's 2 pics on Wikipedia of the Iowa firing a broadside: here and here. Look at the shockwaves.

If I'm going to be throwing that sort of firepower around, I want to be braced against something. The Iowa is braced on the water, afterall (to a certain extent, but it's still something, versus the nothingness of space).

Also, one more nail in the coffin for "use the gun recoil to manuver": Ammo. Ammo is always at a premium, especially for the big guns. There's only so much of it you can carry, and wasting it just to turn is pointless. Not to mention that when you need it, you'll be combat ineffective since you're out of ammo, not to mention the ass-chewing you'll get when you RTB and debrief. Wasting ammo due to having crap weapons - early Sidewinders and the Sahfrir-1 missile were notoriously inacccurate - is understandable. Deliberately wasting your ammo just to turn? An ass-chewing by the CO, at the very least.
There's also one other thing that needs to be pointed out - if the gun wasn't braced so the force could be driven into the deck of the carrier, and then into the ocean around it... the full force of that shot would've gone straight into the back of the destroid along with the guns. All of it, working on 300 tons of metal. Each cannon the size of an Iowa-class battleship's, the total being one gun more than a full battery. AND it braces itself to the deck, using hooks and whatever else, so that it becomes a part of the aircraft carrier for the purpose of firing (spreads out the force of the salvo, the round is now effectively being fired from an aircraft carrier with a Destroid on the deck rather than from just a Destroid).

That's a very, very good reason you don't want to fire them unbraced (be it braced on a ship, on solid ground, etc). Imagine all of that force with nowhere to go but 100t of metal and the parts where they join the mecha. "4門のレール" is how the Macross F site describes the main armament - four railguns, which accelerate a mass to a very high velocity in a very short period of time. Which translates to a whole lotta newtons of force.. which are going to push those guns back pretty hard. Right through the Destroid, if you've nowhere else to direct the force... since those large feet and braces, if braced against nothing, do you no good.

The much-vaunted tank cannons which are mounted on treads which Daigo praises (in this case, we'll use the M256 cannon, the standard equipment on M1A2 Abrams) generates a firing impulse of about 7000 lb/s (3175 kg/s). It fires the M829A3 Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot - Tracer round which weighs 25.4 kg and probably travels 1680 m/s (I was unable to find figures for the velocity, but previous M829 rounds had this as their nominal velocity), and a time to fire of 0.003s (based on effective range of 3000m)...

F=mv/t = (25.4 kg *1680m/s) / 0.003s = 14224000 N = 14,224 kN of force firing an M256 smoothbore using standard M829A3 rounds.

Now, if Daigo wants to bring in that real-life U.S. Navy railgun into the picture... let's match it up with the Monster's main guns. Since we're using a railgun, let's make the rounds.. say, 500kg for the purposes of this (very rough) guestimate as we're using a railgun and we're pretending this is the performance seen from a 'typical' Macross railgun. The barrel lengths, based on pictures, appear to be about the length of an Iowa-class' main cannon (20m). The railgun Daigo referenced is supposed to fire around at 5812 m/s (or about 13000 miles per hour), and that the range is 370 km based on the figures given for that Navy railgun.

F=mv/t = (500kg * 5812m/s) / 0.003s = 9.687 x 10^8 N = 968700 kN of force.

... yeah, there's a big difference there. And there's FOUR of those cannons firing on the VB-6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
MW member DarkReaper has discovered an unknown ship class in Macross Plus OVA episode 1.

It is not an ARMD (original or modern), a Guantanamo or an Uruga.

Could this be the mysterious Haruna class which we do not have a picture or line art?
Actually, that reminds me of the Enbatarrion class that showed up in the Macross VF-X-2 game as linked below.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/vf-x2/enbaterion.htm

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-23 at 17:17. Reason: Replied to ReddyRedWolf, also fixed the time figure in the M256 cannon example to reflect the calculations
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Old 2008-10-22, 23:48   Link #1208
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Actually the link image (Enbatarion class) is the Saratoga II.

Saratoga II Uruga Variant
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Old 2008-10-22, 23:54   Link #1209
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Actually the link image is the Saratoga II.

Saratoga II Uruga Variant
That's the same ship, alright. Knew it looked familiar from somewhere, so I went back to the VF-X-2 section. That bottom fin's the key here.

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-23 at 00:26. Reason: Forgot to close quote tag.
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Old 2008-10-23, 07:10   Link #1210
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For all the trolling and out-of-topic discussions here. I still find them tolerable than what's in the Romance thread.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:49   Link #1211
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4 x 40cm cannons is a lot of firepower in such a "small" package. Plus its other weapons. I wonder why they thought of that originally back before the First Space War.

The transformation conversion of the older mech makes sense when one considers that the original design functioned well for its purpose, but lacked mobility within a space bound fleet enviroment, or anywhere else were it would have to go very far away from its carrier vessel.

The carrier seems to be the main fleet ship type in Macross. Carriers of various sizes and styles seem to defend each larger habitat vessel in Macross 7. Only one of these vessels can transform that we know of, the New Macross-class. This would mean that the Macross is a final line of defense, or the fleet's only planet landing capable warship.

So what does the rest of the escorting warships do once a colony is founded? Set up a few orbital docking platforms and provide a mobile defense?
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:00   Link #1212
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When Macross fleets land they prefer water. As seen with Macross 5, Macross 7 and Macross Frontier.

Macross 5 had its entire fleet on the water before they could react to the attack of the Protodevlin Varauta forces.

They didn't even had the chance to transform their NMCs. Only the hull of Battle 5 was relatively intact. The other NMCs destroyed and the three City ships stolen.

But Battle 7 has shown it can transform in planetary reentry. It can fire its main gun at a vertical position.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:38   Link #1213
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I think he's talking about the carriers, like the Uragas.

Most likely the fleet carriers would form a mobile planetary defense force, patrolling the system to make sure threats don't get near the colony. The NMC would most likely remain in space, or they might keep it planet-side (note that the NMCs are apparently also capable of functioning as conventional wet-navy carriers).
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:21   Link #1214
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While a good chunk of the escort vessels are NUNS, there are some that are private vessels and from hired services (like the SMS) as stated in earlier episodes. I would imagine the NUNS vessels would remain in orbit an take on the primary role of orbital defense. In the inital stages of colonization, I'd guess that they would also double as exploration vessels for the new planetary system. It was shown that during the colony fleet's trek they did send out recon groups to explore the space ahead (which the SMS had to do on one occasion) so I would guess they would use the same technology to map out their new home and see if any of the other worlds are habitable or contain harvestable resources. Since each vessel does appear to have its own fold drive, the NUNS could also re-deploy them to other locations/fleets once the colony has generated enough defenses of its own. The private vessels are a different case since they are technically not part of NUNS and are on their own agendas. What those vessels would do is up to their commanders/owners (could range from mining operations to the simple transport of the wealthy).
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Old 2008-10-23, 17:15   Link #1215
Haesslich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
So what does the rest of the escorting warships do once a colony is founded? Set up a few orbital docking platforms and provide a mobile defense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I think he's talking about the carriers, like the Uragas.

Most likely the fleet carriers would form a mobile planetary defense force, patrolling the system to make sure threats don't get near the colony. The NMC would most likely remain in space, or they might keep it planet-side (note that the NMCs are apparently also capable of functioning as conventional wet-navy carriers).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
While a good chunk of the escort vessels are NUNS, there are some that are private vessels and from hired services (like the SMS) as stated in earlier episodes. I would imagine the NUNS vessels would remain in orbit an take on the primary role of orbital defense. In the inital stages of colonization, I'd guess that they would also double as exploration vessels for the new planetary system. It was shown that during the colony fleet's trek they did send out recon groups to explore the space ahead (which the SMS had to do on one occasion) so I would guess they would use the same technology to map out their new home and see if any of the other worlds are habitable or contain harvestable resources. Since each vessel does appear to have its own fold drive, the NUNS could also re-deploy them to other locations/fleets once the colony has generated enough defenses of its own. The private vessels are a different case since they are technically not part of NUNS and are on their own agendas. What those vessels would do is up to their commanders/owners (could range from mining operations to the simple transport of the wealthy).
And, using the MultiQuote functionality of this board... I'm going to throw in my own two cents:

NUNS vessels have fold drives, but as episode 6 showed folding isn't exactly the same as hopping a plane to San Francisco when moving between star systems - it's more akin to taking a steamship like late 19th century travel; it'll take days if not weeks to get there, you may have to make numerous stops or detours, and there's a risk of getting run aground/destroyed - that's why the 'fold accident' of the 117th Research Fleet was big enough news that even Alto (who doesn't seem to be the type of person to keep up on history or current affairs) would know about it.

Between this and the fact that a NUNS escort of a Macross colonization fleet may take years, if not a decade or two... there's two ways that the UN Spacy could be handling the escort duties that I can think of.

1) Escort fleets have duty rotations of several years, after which (during a stop of the convoy for resupply from Earth or whatever resources are available in nearby star systems which aren't suitable for colonization but which have usable materials) they jump in a new escort group and the old group returns home to whatever base they were stationed at.

2) Escort fleets are set up for long-haul deployments of a decade or more, and the families of people in the escort group go along with the cityships, and when the colonization group finds a suitable world to settle become permanently based in that system, but do detached duty elsewhere as required by the UN Spacy like a 'modern' version of the Roman legions.

This doesn't count any private escort forces/mercenaries/security groups that the colonization fleet may possess, as those could be professionals who are effectively space nomads that live out of their carriers or hired hands who are former military or private security that have a contract that stipulates they get to settle a new colony in return for providing protection along the length of the trip.

Either way, interstellar communications is relatively easy (it has to be for stars like Sheryl to become galactic sensations and travel between fleets and possibly worlds), which means that the UN Spacy can be somewhat decentralized as far as running affairs go. It does appear, at first glance, to be a federal sort of system with satellite states (the colonies) running their own affairs but certain matters are handled at a federal (UN Spacy) level; that's why they've got regulations on hunting space whales and the like.

My question is whether New Macross-class Battleships are 'leased' to the colony fleets so they have to purchase them, or if they're 'owned' by the NUNS and end up on long-duration or permanent deployment in the systems that the colonies end up in? If the colonies are satellite states set up in the arrangement I detailed above, and option #2 is involved (the colonies become that escort group's permanent station/home base), that means the UN Spacy's forces are rather spread out but they can call them in to be dispatched to any point where trouble's starting (like another Zentradi invasion led by Quamzin).

If they're 'owned' by the fleet that they escort, then the UN Spacy has to be very careful about who they sell these ships to lest we get another situation like the Macross 13 incident from the VF-X-2 game... but it explains why the Macross 5 fleet had three New Macross-class ships available to it at the time they met the Protodevlin. If the New Macross ships are still owned by the UN Spacy but get assigned on a permanent basis to the system the colony lands in, that means that the UN Spacy has to heavily subsidize the colonization project in order for it to work (as they're having to build an escort fleet for each colony group, or lose them out of existing forces until they can be replaced or the colony settles somewhere)... especially as, without fold crystals to make fold reactors work well, spacefolds are still energy intensive and limited to a certain range per jump, which means fleets may spend days if not weeks in transit from point to point... a far cry for modern-day travel where any two cities are effectively no more than 18-24 hours apart by airplane due to the small distances and easy access to fast aircraft.
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Old 2008-10-23, 17:47   Link #1216
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Well we do know UN Spacy or NUNS do reassign their personnel.

Miho Miho got transfered to the Valhalla III in Macross VF-X after the destruction of Battle 7 in Macross 7.

Also in Macross Dynamite 7 it has been shown that a Macross fleet has the capacity to build New Macross Class battleships.

Meaning Macross Galaxy may have the capacity to build a new Battle Galaxy in a years time.

Macross Class ships despite being an older design than the New Macross Class is more armed and more capacity for Valkyries and Destroids, more expensive looking at the mass tonnage.

Now there is also the Macross Quarter Class which does not consume as much resources in building like the other two. These aren't designed as flagships but a pure escort ship. Without the drawbacks of the Uruga, Guantanamo or Bolognese carriers. It has teeth.
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Old 2008-10-23, 18:16   Link #1217
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Well we do know UN Spacy or NUNS do reassign their personnel.

Miho Miho got transfered to the Valhalla III in Macross VF-X after the destruction of Battle 7 in Macross 7.

Also in Macross Dynamite 7 it has been shown that a Macross fleet has the capacity to build New Macross Class battleships.

Meaning Macross Galaxy may have the capacity to build a new Battle Galaxy in a years time.

Macross Class ships despite being an older design than the New Macross Class is more armed and more capacity for Valkyries and Destroids, more expensive looking at the mass tonnage.

Now there is also the Macross Quarter Class which does not consume as much resources in building like the other two. These aren't designed as flagships but a pure escort ship. Without the drawbacks of the Uruga, Guantanamo or Bolognese carriers. It has teeth.
Do all Macross fleets have the ability to build them? Or is it more that some fleets are better equipped than others? Look at the differences between, say, Macross Galaxy and Frontier; if they all have the ability to build New Macross ships given the resources, then that would go a long way to explaining why the Galaxy group could've gotten away with effectively hijacking a New Macross-class carrier for their plans... and the UN Spacy's likely to have become paranoid about those ships getting into the wrong hands after the Vindance group absconded with one in 2051.

Given how long Macross Galaxy and Frontier have been in flight (at least 12 years for Frontier, 13-15 for Galaxy), it's conceivable that older fleets have the capability to build Macross-class ships... but at the same time, that type of technology is something that the UN Spacy has taken great pains to try to keep out of non-authorized hands, which is why Captain Aegis Focker and the Ravens were dispatched in the first place during the events of VF-X-2 in 2051. But at the same time, how long-term are these placements? As noted by Frontier, spacefolds aren't exactly a trivial affair once you get beyond the range of a solar system... and the farther you're going (as you would have to, for a military deployment) the longer it takes and the more energy it uses, as well as running the risk of an accident occuring. That's why, IIRC, they usually took small folds when moving the Frontier fleet from place to place until they had to flee the continuing Vajra assaults with the long-distance one.

Still, I can see a mix of options 1 and 2 for the deployment of an escort fleet: you have some ships who are assigned permanently to the colonization fleet but whose crews could be reassigned as necessary, being transferred on and off the vessels at prearranged layover points when the fleet stops to collect supplies or update Earth with regards to its status. There may be ships who are on temporarily attached duty with the colonization group from another colony which happened to be nearby and who return to their home colony after a period of a few months or years, and they hand off responsibility as they go along - and also in doing so keep open lines of communication with other human worlds as well as provide settled colonists an option for 'moving on' or for members of the existing colonization group a chance to stop somewhere that's already settled since the colonization fleet's within range of these colonies. Plus, it gives them a chance to trade between groups (music, local products, manufactured items which weren't available when the previous fleet left as well as the plans for making more).

As for the Quarter, I get the impression that class of ship in general's either very new or isn't deployed often; Lieutenant Glass didn't seem to know much about the capabilities of the Quarter until she was forcefully introduced to them by the rising restraint system and Bobby's GAR-tastic driving. Those ships seem to be designed less as escort carriers and more as 'strike' carriers for Special Operations groups - the sort of ship that an elite team of VF pilots like the Ravens would be seen on, and which normally would be dispatched from Earth or some other main UN Spacy base to wherever it was needed on limited missions. Ozma certainly hasn't been with the Frontier fleet all that long - no more than eleven years at most... and given that Cathy's only like 23-24 and how those two likely met, he was probably in the UN Spacy around the time he met Cathy since she didn't look 12 in those flashbacks in Episode 17.

I'm using that to set a limit as to how long the Quarter's been assigned to the SMS group with the Macross 25th colonization fleet. We don't know when Ozma quit the NUNS, but we do know that he was likely to have been involved with Cathy when she was 17-19, which gives us a period of six years or so for him to have joined SMS and for the Quarter to have been delivered, if it wasn't already with the fleet when it left Earth 12 years ago. However, if it was an older craft or one in common usage I would think that a NUNS staffer who was qualified with the type of radar unit recently installed in the Quarter woiuld know generally what classes of ships carried it... and she didn't seem to know a danged thing.
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Old 2008-10-23, 18:52   Link #1218
Evangelion Xgouki
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If I recall, the Macross Quarter is not connected to NUNS. It was developed and manufactured by the SMS much like the VF-25s. With the SMS being referred to as a civilian military contractor group, it leaves the impression that they are like a contracting group that the military (NUNS) go to and have bid on contracts. In this case it was the VF-25 contract that they won which they were to test before a possible final sale to the NUNS. It just happened that the SMS also had their hands in escorting materials/fleets which is probably why they developed the Macross Quarter: to help them in their escort services. Since they were testing the VF-25s it probably didn't seem like a bad idea to test their new battleship at the same time (and possibly make some sales to NUNS at the same time as they showed it off).
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Old 2008-10-23, 19:28   Link #1219
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
If I recall, the Macross Quarter is not connected to NUNS. It was developed and manufactured by the SMS much like the VF-25s. With the SMS being referred to as a civilian military contractor group, it leaves the impression that they are like a contracting group that the military (NUNS) go to and have bid on contracts. In this case it was the VF-25 contract that they won which they were to test before a possible final sale to the NUNS. It just happened that the SMS also had their hands in escorting materials/fleets which is probably why they developed the Macross Quarter: to help them in their escort services. Since they were testing the VF-25s it probably didn't seem like a bad idea to test their new battleship at the same time (and possibly make some sales to NUNS at the same time as they showed it off).
The Quarter's definitely not connected to NUNS, but at the same time if it was of a standard class of ship in NUNS inventory you'd expect Cathy to know about it since to qualify with that specific radar unit she'd have to know the specifications as well as how to use the thing - and related to that would be the classes of ships that employed the equipment, which is apparently military-issue. I suspect that you're right and that the Quarter was an experimental carrier type that was developed by one of the companies that supplies NUNS, and that Bilrer was able to convince them to allow SMS to test the design in combat before offering it to NUNS as an alternative or replacement to the Uraga class.

Its design certainly makes it better for missions like those the VFX Ravens were engaged in than the Uraga variant they were using was, as it's apparently as nimble as a destroyer or even a missile boat (looking at its performance in episodes 7 and 25 when it was literally dodging beams like an oversized VF) while maintaining atmospheric capability like all other known Macross-class and New Macross-class vessels. The main issue I see with letting all the Macross fleets build their own, if the NMC's and MC's are owned by the fleets in question, is that means the technology for reaction weapons and Macross cannons is thus available to any Anti UN Spacy group that has the money for it... and given how the biggest one with the most connections (Vindrance, via Wilbur Garland) had to hijack Battle 13 in 2051, that the technology's not very widepsread or is under heavy UN Spacy control, just as the technology for nuclear weapons or other high-tech gear is available and governments themselves don't directly manufacture them... but at the same time, the governments in question strictly regulate who those businesses can sell the tech to, and monitor them very closely.
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Old 2008-10-23, 21:26   Link #1220
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QFT,

As I said a whole lot posts back when I still had the patience to reply to those senseless arguments, thinking using 'possible in the current world' assumptions is the WORST thing you can do as it's practically a pure error at it's core. Get rid of this mind set and then post your questions.

EDIT.

A question about VF-25F and S variation. Considering all the previous VF designs and the F/S versions the most obvious feature that is changed in the S version is the amount of the Head Laser turrets as well as weight and engine output. S Variations are commander type and thus provide a better performance to the F version. Is there any solid info on the specs of VF-25S ? We know that it has 4 x fixed Mauler RÍV-217C coaxial 12.7mm beam guns while F has 2. Is there anything more?
No doubt the VF-25S Messiah will follow this tradition. As you say, the "S" already has four beam cannons but we've not yet been given statistics on all the VF-25 variants, so we can't know for sure. The information will come along eventually and I am purchasing the Macross Chronicle and having it translated. There should be more official trivia coming sooner rather than later. I'll keep everyone posted and make sure to keep watching my website for more.
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