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Old 2008-10-23, 09:42   Link #301
Urei
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post

Something to consider: we all agree that the VF-171 is a nerfed fighter (apparently official sources also say that it's not quite up to the standards of the old VF-17). Could the switch to the VF-171 from the VF-19 perhaps be the NUNS way of having a trump card? When your rogue fleet's grunts are using VF-19s, it's a lot more difficult to fight them off, compared to if they're just using VF-171s...

...leaving aside the reason that if Kawamori turned the VF-19 into a grunt cannon fodder mecha the nerd rage would be greater than the NanoFate Legion...
We can't say that VF-171 is an inferior version to VF-17. From what we know it does have improvements. EX is a further modified version, with additional equipment, slightly upped specs. VF-171 was adapted to by a pilot friendly fighter, as well as VF-19.

Well, I don't think that conspiracy VF-19 theory applies here. The most probable reason would be that VF-19 is a pricer unit to mass produce. It may also require more maintence an pricirer parts. There has to be a reason as why did an gramps all powerful VF-19 got replaced by VF-171. I don't think military would go for an inferior Fighter as their main force in combat.

My guess would be that it's old tech design may be harder to adapt to newest technology unlike VF-17 which could be easily modified. Let's not forget that VF-19 was a highly specified Fighter. adaptability was not it's purpose.
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Old 2008-10-23, 17:54   Link #302
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
We can't say that VF-171 is an inferior version to VF-17. From what we know it does have improvements. EX is a further modified version, with additional equipment, slightly upped specs. VF-171 was adapted to by a pilot friendly fighter, as well as VF-19.

Well, I don't think that conspiracy VF-19 theory applies here. The most probable reason would be that VF-19 is a pricer unit to mass produce. It may also require more maintence an pricirer parts. There has to be a reason as why did an gramps all powerful VF-19 got replaced by VF-171. I don't think military would go for an inferior Fighter as their main force in combat.

My guess would be that it's old tech design may be harder to adapt to newest technology unlike VF-17 which could be easily modified. Let's not forget that VF-19 was a highly specified Fighter. adaptability was not it's purpose.
I suspect this conjecture (it was downgraded) is based on the transformation of the high-performance YF-19 to the somewhat lower-performance VF-19 and the similar changes between the YF-21 to the production VF-22 Sturmvogel II. But it should be noted that the VF-17 Nightmare design didn't appear to be the 'standard' unit with fleets even by the time of Macross 7, which was set in 2046 - but rather was considered to be an 'elite' fighter, perhaps due to its superior performance in space but substandard one in atmosphere.

The main advantages of the -171 series are the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to other VF's with similar multimission capabilities, it is excellent for space-based use, and the usability enhancements secure it a place in the front lines despite the existence of other craft which are better dogfighters (the VF-19, VF-22) in space and atmosphere.

However, the VF-25 appears to be a return to the older philosophy of a multimission fighter, which is complemented by the ease of equipment changes. It does everything the VF-171 does now, but has a better aerodynamic profile for in-atmosphere work, which is necessary once a Macross colonization group settles down on a planet somewhere.
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Old 2008-10-24, 00:02   Link #303
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
I suspect this conjecture (it was downgraded) is based on the transformation of the high-performance YF-19 to the somewhat lower-performance VF-19 and the similar changes between the YF-21 to the production VF-22 Sturmvogel II.

The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
But it should be noted that the VF-17 Nightmare design didn't appear to be the 'standard' unit with fleets even by the time of Macross 7, which was set in 2046 - but rather was considered to be an 'elite' fighter, perhaps due to its superior performance in space but substandard one in atmosphere.
Well, VF-17 was only a second line fighter.

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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The main advantages of the -171 series are the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to other VF's with similar multimission capabilities, it is excellent for space-based use, and the usability enhancements secure it a place in the front lines despite the existence of other craft which are better dogfighters (the VF-19, VF-22) in space and atmosphere.

However, the VF-25 appears to be a return to the older philosophy of a multimission fighter, which is complemented by the ease of equipment changes. It does everything the VF-171 does now, but has a better aerodynamic profile for in-atmosphere work, which is necessary once a Macross colonization group settles down on a planet somewhere.
Well, in Macross 7 the VF-17 was a lesser design compared to VF-19 or VF-22. It was cheaper and it's performance was not on par with the 'hero' units. As I said, it served in UN Spacy as a second line fighter. Aside from a Super Pack and an commander S version it didn't receive any modifications so VF-19 was better at handling different missions.

About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own.

I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.
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Old 2008-10-24, 00:46   Link #304
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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur.
From what I recall, the engines got boosted as you said (67500 kg versus 72500kg), but the prototype had several systems which were not present with the mass-produced VF-19F: the rear-firing laser turret that was the head isn't listed on the VF-19's specifications, and it had two internal pallets which could carry two micromissile clusters, 2x24 micromissile launchers, or four missiles) and a chaff dispenser which don't appear on the specifications for the VF-19's that appear in Macross 7.

What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight.

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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Well, VF-17 was only a second line fighter.

Well, in Macross 7 the VF-17 was a lesser design compared to VF-19 or VF-22. It was cheaper and it's performance was not on par with the 'hero' units. As I said, it served in UN Spacy as a second line fighter. Aside from a Super Pack and an commander S version it didn't receive any modifications so VF-19 was better at handling different missions.

About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own.

I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.
... it was such a 'second line' fighter that the elite of Macross 7's squadrons, Diamond Force, was using it. The only reason it was becoming 'second line' as far as elites were concerned was because the VF-19 and VF-22 had swung into full production at that point and were replacing it. Up to that stage, it was considered a top-line fighter, especially due to its stealth capabilities. Its main Achilles heel was, as I noted, the fact it performed poorly in atmosphere compared to previous planes due to an less aerodynamic shape.

As discussed in Macross 7, the VF-19 wasn't all that common due to the needs it had for a pilot, and it also was somewhat expensive... while regular 'elites' like Diamond Force got the VF-17; normal pilots flew the VF-11B/C planes. The VF-17 was considered a top-line plane up until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17. But the VF-17 was hardly a 'second line' fighter at that point - it was second-line to the audience due to it not being a hero-plane, but that was about it. The VF-11's served the role the VF-171s do in Macross F: being the plane everyone else flies, and which gets blown up to show that the enemy's dangerous.

And like I said, the VF-25 is a multimission platform which is a throwback to the VF-1 series of planes; the VF-171 is currently serving a similar mission, which is why it's so common in the UN Spacy inventory as of Macross Frontier. Most of the other Variable Fighters we've seen since the original Macross have been fairly specialized planes, with specific missions they were designed for.

The YF-19 and YF-21 of Macross Plus were built to be air/space superiority fighters which could outmaneuver and outshoot any other planes they were sent up against, but weren't really built to be strike fighters or fighter-bombers as they didn't have the missile loadout or heavy armor for it; the VF-11s and VF-4's that preceeded them were built more to be tactical fighters or strike fighters that did two or three missions and that was it (interceptor roles, attacking capital ships, strike missions) with the VF-4 being the more heavily armed of the two. The VF-14 of the movie and the games was described as a 'heavy attack fighter' and carried what looked to be a lot of heavy energy guns and armor.

In Macross 7 you have the VF-17 which is a 'special operations fighter for space combat' due to its good performance in space and fairly heavy armament (two lasers, a turret, heavy gatling pod, 24 micromissiles before adding any Super packs), the VF-19 and VF-22 which are aerospace superiority fighters again that could function well in and out of atmosphere unlike the VF-17, and then the game VF-X-2 brought out the VF-500B Star Mirage with its laser cannon, gun pod, and four micromissile launchers along with the now-iconic VB-6 Konig Monster. Oh, and the VA-3M Invader 'flies underwater' VF.

Looking at all those series, the only general-purpose fighter which isn't specialized more or less for one role is the VF-500B Star Mirage, whose range of armaments and speed make it more or less fill the 'jack of all trades' role that the VF-1 had to do (by necessity) in the First Space War. The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point; I don't know if he'd have been able to pull off the same things in Episode 2 if a VF-19 or VF-22 had landed there, as he might've been outperformed by the craft, and the VF-19 was notoriously 'touchy'.

Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
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Old 2008-10-24, 01:56   Link #305
Urei
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
From what I recall, the engines got boosted as you said (67500 kg versus 72500kg), but the prototype had several systems which were not present with the mass-produced VF-19F: the rear-firing laser turret that was the head isn't listed on the VF-19's specifications, and it had two internal pallets which could carry two micromissile clusters, 2x24 micromissile launchers, or four missiles) and a chaff dispenser which don't appear on the specifications for the VF-19's that appear in Macross 7.

If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement.


YF-19

2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.
4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)

VF-19F

# 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs.


In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped.



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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight.
Let's not go over the top with descriptions and stray off from the main point.


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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
... it was such a 'second line' fighter that the elite of Macross 7's squadrons, Diamond Force, was using it. The only reason it was becoming 'second line' as far as elites were concerned was because the VF-19 and VF-22 had swung into full production at that point and were replacing it. Up to that stage, it was considered a top-line fighter, especially due to its stealth capabilities. Its main Achilles heel was, as I noted, the fact it performed poorly in atmosphere compared to previous planes due to an less aerodynamic shape.
Well, VF-17 is larger, heavier and slower. It's a unit that was used as a fighting force because it was indeed more useful then Thunderbolt. Still, it had a lot of limitation which was the reason why Project Supernova fired up. It just never met the requirements that the UN Spacey had for a next gen fighter. VF-19 covered that area later on. Simply put


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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
//until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17.
I always wondered about those g. limits in VF-22. It's a lot heavier then VF-19F has considerably less thrust force and thus a much weaker TtW ratio. It can withstand more G.Force while turning or performing maneuvers but with those specs it still falls behind in dogfight. Besides, this additional mass is a major drawback when performing said maneuvers. I say this G.Limit is to withstand a 1 ton mass increase of an empty plane + some armament bonuses simply.

I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs.



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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point.//


//Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
But it is it's performance. It has 2x the thrust of VF-19 and around 2.5x the thrust of VF-22 while having less mass then VF-19 and the Sumo VF-22. In addition all of those specs are boosted by it's super FAST Pack to such an extent that it produces so much g.force that it's almost irrational. There were some calculations on another board that with super FAST pack the g. forces produced go well over 90. An assumption based on the comparison between the power of a VF-1 and it's FAST pack power.

If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent.

VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.
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Old 2008-10-24, 02:47   Link #306
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement.


YF-19

2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.
4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)

VF-19F

# 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs.

In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped.
As I said before, the Super pack was the main thing the production had over the one that the prototype had (which, IIRC, was just a booster pack along the lines of the one the VF-25S used). Of course, the lightening of the airframe probably (along with the change of vernier thruster to the 7R versus the 6H) may have helped goost the maximum speed in space up some. But as for the prototype, I recall the micromissile packs getting a lot of use by Isamu.


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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Well, VF-17 is larger, heavier and slower. It's a unit that was used as a fighting force because it was indeed more useful then Thunderbolt. Still, it had a lot of limitation which was the reason why Project Supernova fired up. It just never met the requirements that the UN Spacey had for a next gen fighter. VF-19 covered that area later on. Simply put
And, as I said earlier, it wasn't exactly a second-line fighter; it was superseded by the VF-19 and VF-22 as an aerospace superiority fighter as both of them could pull more G's and were faster craft (which is important for intercepting the enemy as well as in pursuit), but it was still 'elite' until better planes showed up. The VF-11 was the 'standard' fighter for many Macross fleets as of 2045 from what we could see with the VF-4 having gone to second-line status as an older fighter.

If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were.

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I always wondered about those g. limits in VF-22. It's a lot heavier then VF-19F has considerably less thrust force and thus a much weaker TtW ratio. It can withstand more G.Force while turning or performing maneuvers but with those specs it still falls behind in dogfight. Besides, this additional mass is a major drawback when performing said maneuvers. I say this G.Limit is to withstand a 1 ton mass increase of an empty plane + some armament bonuses simply.

I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs.
The G-limits are probably more due to the strength of the frame as well as any limiters programmed into the computers; basically if it exceeds those, it's likely to either a) kill the pilot, or b) tear the plane apart. Remembering that the YF-21 was superior on paper to the YF-19, and this is the version that dumped the flexible wing and mind-controlled systems, it still only has a ton extra mass compared to the VF-21 (9.5 tons versus 8.5 tons) and the YF-21 had comparable thrust to the upgraded YF-19... which for the Roice-FF 2450B engines was 65200 per engine, which puts it about 10000kg per engine as far as output goes on the 2500F's the VF-19 uses.

I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
//Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
But it is it's performance. It has 2x the thrust of VF-19 and around 2.5x the thrust of VF-22 while having less mass then VF-19 and the Sumo VF-22. In addition all of those specs are boosted by it's super FAST Pack to such an extent that it produces so much g.force that it's almost irrational. There were some calculations on another board that with super FAST pack the g. forces produced go well over 90. An assumption based on the comparison between the power of a VF-1 and it's FAST pack power.

If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent.

VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.
It's not its overwhelming performance which makes it special (even if the technological leap required to allow it to make such gains in thrust-to-weight ratio and maneuverability are), but its ability to fulfill any role required of it just by switching a few pieces of equipment out. It basically, by itself, has the ability to replace almost every specialized plane in the NUNS inventory... while being easy enough to handle that you don't have to be Max Jenius, Isamu Dyson, Guld Bowman, or Basara Nekki to fly it and use it well, or even to avoid killing yourself the way the top-performing fighters of Macross Plus and Macross 7 did.

The problem with the VF-19 and VF-22 wasn't just cost, but that if a less-skilled pilot flew those planes, he or she would either crash and burn as they couldn't cope with the plane's sensitivity due to slower reflexes or a less-developed flying sense, or would be unable to really take advantage of the extra speed and maneuverability to fly better than they would in a VF-11 The VF-171's ability to act in a multimission capability with 'okay' performance combined with its price is what makes it so useful the the NUNS now, as well as being forgiving enough as a platform that a minor mistake or not being quite as fast on the reflex tests as Max Jenius wouldn't mean your career would end in a fireball on a flight deck. The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability. But at the same time, the fighter could compensate for his relative lack of talent to make him effective without being so 'high-strung' that a second's inattention would cause him to lose control.

And by being able to dogfight, do attack fighter duty, and by being able to refit within a few minutes due to extremely modular construction would be able to replace the VF-171's, VF-19's, and VF-14's along with any other 'specialty' craft the NUNS has... and in doing so simplify the logistics chain a lot, as they could use the same parts for most of their planes, and also make planning missions somewhat easier as they wouldn't have to necessarily send in a carrier that had room for all the different plane types into an operation; just keep a smaller ship with the packs handy and refit squadrons as needed.

It's versatile in much the same way the VF-1 was versatile, while improving performance in almost every area... and by adding the right pack, it becomes a dominating (as well as cost-effective) platform.

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-24 at 03:10.
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Old 2008-10-24, 04:18   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
As I said before, the Super pack was the main thing the production had over the one that the prototype had (which, IIRC, was just a booster pack along the lines of the one the VF-25S used). Of course, the lightening of the airframe probably (along with the change of vernier thruster to the 7R versus the 6H) may have helped goost the maximum speed in space up some. But as for the prototype, I recall the micromissile packs getting a lot of use by Isamu.
Well, I agree that armaments wise there is little difference between the Prototype and the actual Mass Production model. It's understandable that the production model has side armament Packs unlike the prototype so no surprise there. Still, it is very important to notice this thrust increase. Considering it's adaptation to space and the quality of space environment it is a great improvement. Atmospheric wise the fighters 'could' perform the same I assume, though we can't diss the space modification. In that area YF model could be better.

And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype.

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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
And, as I said earlier, it wasn't exactly a second-line fighter; it was superseded by the VF-19 and VF-22 as an aerospace superiority fighter as both of them could pull more G's and were faster craft (which is important for intercepting the enemy as well as in pursuit), but it was still 'elite' until better planes showed up. The VF-11 was the 'standard' fighter for many Macross fleets as of 2045 from what we could see with the VF-4 having gone to second-line status as an older fighter.

If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were.
Quote:
With the success of the flight tests, the U.N. Spacy adopted the VF-17 as a second line variable mecha and included squadrons on many of the colonization fleets, notably the 37th long-distance colonization fleet lead by the 7th New Macross-Class battleship in 2038.
Considering it's adaptation into the U.N. Spacey it was second line to begin with. It may have not been used as such because of the fact that exchanging all of the fleets Fighters takes time. Having been given a new, improved to the Thunderbolt unit the fleet naturally assigns it as an elite unit even if it's meant to be replaced soon with a better fighter.

That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The G-limits are probably more due to the strength of the frame as well as any limiters programmed into the computers; basically if it exceeds those, it's likely to either a) kill the pilot, or b) tear the plane apart. Remembering that the YF-21 was superior on paper to the YF-19, and this is the version that dumped the flexible wing and mind-controlled systems, it still only has a ton extra mass compared to the VF-21 (9.5 tons versus 8.5 tons) and the YF-21 had comparable thrust to the upgraded YF-19... which for the Roice-FF 2450B engines was 65200 per engine, which puts it about 10000kg per engine as far as output goes on the 2500F's the VF-19 uses.
I'd say that one ton of mass more with less thrust force is a VERY bad feature to have on your fighter. Especially if that mass increase is as much as 1/8 of the plane.

Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact.

However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target.
Speed is an extremely important issue in every dogfight. It's more of an issue in a Macross air combat. Speed that comes out of the Weight-to-Thrust ratio is one aspect of this stat. Acceleration, deceleration and turning ability is determined by that statistic. As I said above. I simply can't see how 22 can pull anything close to 19 with it's specs unless it releases it's limiters. It is possible it come close by using those wings. This statement is solely based in it's specs not on what we saw in the anime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
It's not its overwhelming performance which makes it special (even if the technological leap required to allow it to make such gains in thrust-to-weight ratio and maneuverability are), but its ability to fulfill any role required of it just by switching a few pieces of equipment out. It basically, by itself, has the ability to replace almost every specialized plane in the NUNS inventory... while being easy enough to handle that you don't have to be Max Jenius, Isamu Dyson, Guld Bowman, or Basara Nekki to fly it and use it well, or even to avoid killing yourself the way the top-performing fighters of Macross Plus and Macross 7 did.
I agree. The revolution comes from how it's able to be modified, adapted and tuned to be a perfect pilot girlfriend of space metal. It's understandable that it's performance leap is natural though it's clear we just have to notice just how much it improved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability.
That certainly is true. Only an Ace can go to the limit of a machines performance and take it even further. This takes us back to my previous post that was seemingly forgotten by the users of this forum. Ozma pilots VF-25S and as we all know the S Variation has improvements all over the frame, as well as fine tuned engine that boosts the performance. I wonder just how much better the S version is over the standard F. We don't have any solid info right now unfortunately.

It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX.


PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place.
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Old 2008-10-24, 14:01   Link #308
ChronoReverse
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The reason why the YF-21 could usually match up the YF-19 is two-fold.

The first is that both have ultimate accelerations far far higher than what the pilots can withstand. This is why both pretty much have the same _practical_ acceleration.

The other reason is because the YF-21 had the inertial vectoring system (one reason why it was heavier in the first place). This is the same system that allowed the QRaus to have unparalleled space maneuverability and very high atmospheric maneuverability (where it really should have maneuvered like a pig). The fully 3-D thrust vectoring and deforming+folding wings were just bonus.

With that said, the YF-19 ultimately does have an edge over the YF-21. As for the VF-19F vs the VF-22, they really dropped the ball on it XD
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Old 2008-10-24, 17:51   Link #309
Haesslich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Well, I agree that armaments wise there is little difference between the Prototype and the actual Mass Production model. It's understandable that the production model has side armament Packs unlike the prototype so no surprise there. Still, it is very important to notice this thrust increase. Considering it's adaptation to space and the quality of space environment it is a great improvement. Atmospheric wise the fighters 'could' perform the same I assume, though we can't diss the space modification. In that area YF model could be better.

And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype.
The YF-19 and YF-21 ultimately could both move faster than was safe for the pilots, but from what I could see the shape-changing wing and the vector-thrusting that was a legacy of the Queadlunn-Rau design the YF-21 was based on made a huge difference with regards to the manueverability of the YF-21. VF-19's faster, but the VF-22 dives and climbs harder, and seems to turn better even if it has less overall thrust, and so can (especially with the larger number of micromissiles we saw Guld use) box a target in to kill it faster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Considering it's adaptation into the U.N. Spacey it was second line to begin with. It may have not been used as such because of the fact that exchanging all of the fleets Fighters takes time. Having been given a new, improved to the Thunderbolt unit the fleet naturally assigns it as an elite unit even if it's meant to be replaced soon with a better fighter.

That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military.
Not a core, but still it was used with the elites, and Gamlin along with Diamond Force ended up flying the buggers as the VF-19's and VF-22's were only starting to come into service at this point (2045, or about five years after the ATF competitions which resulted in the final decision. Not a bad pace compared to real-life procurement processes. And you'll note that the VF-11 Thunderbolt was still considered a mainline fighter, as the VF-171 is in the 'current' (2059) timeframe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
I'd say that one ton of mass more with less thrust force is a VERY bad feature to have on your fighter. Especially if that mass increase is as much as 1/8 of the plane.

Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact.

However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless.
Gravity is an insignificant force in space combat unless you're close to a planet's gravity well, and the deforming wings were supposed to help it in-atmosphere. The rear-facing canard just above the cockpit would've reduced the VF-19's maximum speed in atmosphere somewhat (which may be reflected in the stats that show it having a significant drop in speed compared to space) as it did with the VF-11. The biggest advantage for the VF-22/YF-21 based on how it heavily borrowed elements from the Queadlunn-Rau and other Zentradi power armor was that it was MUCH more maneuverable in space, and could literally turn on a dime while packing a lot of missiles.

In atmosphere, it could do very well... but at the same time the VF-19 did have an edge due to the way its wings and canard were set up, from what I could tell, and Isamu pushed it to its very limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Speed is an extremely important issue in every dogfight. It's more of an issue in a Macross air combat. Speed that comes out of the Weight-to-Thrust ratio is one aspect of this stat. Acceleration, deceleration and turning ability is determined by that statistic. As I said above. I simply can't see how 22 can pull anything close to 19 with it's specs unless it releases it's limiters. It is possible it come close by using those wings. This statement is solely based in it's specs not on what we saw in the anime.
Speed's important for catching up with a target - but maneuverability comes heavily into play, and the VF-22 system seems to excel with that due to its thrusters and everything else it stole from the Zentradi designs. Of course, considering who founded General Galaxy, 'stole' is probably the wrong term to use with them. Speed is really important in intercept and pursuit missions where you have to catch up with or just catch a target - it lets you pull into range faster to fight. With BARCAP and FORCAP roles, it's less important than being able to maneuver and just latch onto the enemy craft... which Bowman and later Max and Millia managed to do very well with these superior craft.

Of course, we're going well into the Mecha thread discussion territory, so you're right - best to stop here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
That certainly is true. Only an Ace can go to the limit of a machines performance and take it even further. This takes us back to my previous post that was seemingly forgotten by the users of this forum. Ozma pilots VF-25S and as we all know the S Variation has improvements all over the frame, as well as fine tuned engine that boosts the performance. I wonder just how much better the S version is over the standard F. We don't have any solid info right now unfortunately.

It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX.


PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place.
As for the VF-25S, the stats we have so far to compare with the VF-25F don't show any real difference performance-wise between the two, although historically pilots with squadron leader mecha tended to have better performance and maintenance done on the vehicles. Whether this was due to it being the squadron leader's mecha, or the squadron leaders historically being the best pilots (thus being able to pull more out of the mecha) is the question. The main thing that amazed Alto was that the Super pack, which was designed for extra performance in space combat, was not giving him an automatic edge over Ozma with the 'heavy Armored pack' that added four beam guns (on the shoulders), all those extra micromissile launchers, a radar unit for them, and extra armor plating on what would become the torso and arms and legs of the mecha (also containing micromissiles).

Of course, Alto slowly catches up with Ozma... but usually only when he's truly pissed off, or a friend's in danger. At that point the gloves come off and he apparently becomes an insane instinctive pilot with good reflexes. You'd almost think he has Zentradi blood in him...
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Old 2008-11-17, 08:25   Link #310
ReddyRedWolf
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Okay unto interracial hybrids.

We know due to the loss of most of the human populace and the addition of the Zentradi to human society, hybrids are a inevitable fact.

Then comes in the Zolans. Supposedly they are marsupials and can't have kids with humans.

Apparently not! According to the Macross Choronicle one side of Michel Blanc's family has Zolan blood. Either it is possible due to the Protoculture leaving enough genetic manipulation for a hybrid or a human attempt at genetic manipulation for a human-Zolan hybrid.

One parent of Michel is a Zolan hybrid.

Bunch heres the clincher. Michel also has Zentradi blood on the other side of his geneology. Also a hybrid.

So Michel has the genetic inheritance of humans, Zentradi and Zolans.

Which makes you wonder if the Protoculture had this in mind all along due to an episode of Macross 7 emphasizing hybrids as Signs of Peace.
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Old 2008-11-17, 16:17   Link #311
squaresphere
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makes sense, as the problem they had with the Zentradi was that they only knew how to fight and relied on bio factories to make new soldiers. Not to mention they lived in sex separated fleets.

The Zolans, I don't know about. Obviously the protoculture had a reason to make the Zentradi, the Zolan I have no idea other than maybe they were a "prototype" zentradi that didn't pan out or they were a result of the seeding program that we saw from the birdman in M0.
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Old 2008-11-17, 20:57   Link #312
Tak
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Heh, in the OVAs, the Zolans certainly look human enough to errr... interbreed.

And I hate the fact that they had this beautiful Zolan in one of the OVAs, then have her appear for... gosh, 2 episodes? Give me a break!

Although I would not be surprised if the Zolans were modified enough by Protoculture that regardless of their evolutionary origins, they were modified to contain human reproductive organs.

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Old 2008-11-22, 10:29   Link #313
Wild Goose
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Isn't Mikhail part Zolan, IIRC?
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