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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 14 14.43%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.02%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 20.62%
7 out of 10 : Good 15 15.46%
6 out of 10 : Average 10 10.31%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 3.09%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.03%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.03%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-10-24, 07:38   Link #61
Darknemo2000
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Personally I think Ryuuji is fine the way he is. He is not a goof whose best point is being nice, thus he does not have that "useless-nice-guy-harem-lead-whom-girls-like-despite-being -useless" implant in him (though his friend Kitamura has it, obviously), but remains to be a pretty enjoyable lead.

He is nice (maybe too nice, considering how Taiga treats him) but not to the point of being completely spineless like Shinji or some would say Saito (though Saito does have a reason - he is in love, and love as we all know sometimes do take your spine away), he is not full of himself like Kazuma.

He is more like Kyon, just without such sharp tongue and with cleaning obsession...

All in all I do not think he does need that much to change...Now Taiga is a different matter... She at first needs to become friend to Ryuuji rather than being so selfish all the time, maybe then we can see their relationship as a real teamwork like the tittle seem to imply... And maybe then there will be chances for something more... But for now Taiga does really need to change a little (not to the point of ZOMG I love Ryuuji) but to the point of becoming less selfish and help Ryuuji out as well...
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Old 2008-10-24, 10:37   Link #62
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I'd give this episode an eight out of ten. I really enjoyed it for the most part from the last episode.

What I like about Taiga compared to other tsunderes is that she doesn't deny her infatuation with Kitamura. She can't tell it directly to his face for obvious reasons, but she doesn't seem upset over the fact that Ryuuji knows. And every scene she was in confirmed that.

I did get some good laughs out of this episode too, like when Kitamura grabbed Taiga during the assembly. Just classic how she was making that face and gushing about it later. It's kind of nice to see her in that form, but ugh...she just turns to tsun a bit too quickly.

The opening proved to me that she can resist the temptation to hit Ryuuji (Which, that was a legitimate case for violence looking through her personal things) yet in the ending scene, she tries to kick his head off after she goes defenseless. What the hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
well... the series is not about fine average people.. .its about a group of really really flawed people they're all dysfunctional basketcases in some way.

I guess the question is can they muddle along anyway somehow.
I was wondering if someone else was noticing this. Thank you.

I feel like Ryuuji is partially messed up because he has this obsession to care and cleanliness. Logically, he felt more of the need to help Taiga because he couldn't stand her living conditions. It was depressing for him. And his obsession was confiirmed when we saw him cleaning a public bathroom, so it just doesn't follow. If the pairing of Ryuuji/Taiga is imminent, then it still feels odd considering both of the people feel so weird.

Taiga...I'm starting to wonder if tsundere is becoming like, a soft term for bipolar. Now, I know, that isn't right for all tsunderes. But Taiga seems like a special case here considering how often and dramatically she changes. Not to mention over the littlest things. Like, when Ryuuji offered to laminate the photos, it feels like not much was said but Taiga still got upset enough to leave her house. Then we have the scene at the end where after she confessed these things, she immediately tries to kick Ryuuji and yells at him for knowing. Minorin, as we know, is just plain out there. I'm curious to see how Ami will be though in the next episode.

This series is just so strange when you look at it. I feel like it's the yandere of this season. It looks nice and interesting, but you have that fear you are going to get stabbed. It makes me fear how the authors will deal with it because it doesn't feel like any of the characters want to change despite these large flaws. Feels so conflicting, but I might have been thinking too much on the subject.
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Old 2008-10-24, 10:54   Link #63
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Again, I am questioning the purpose of calling her tsundere when she is not stun and dere to the same person. She looks more like a girl who is nice to Kitamura and a bitch to Ryuuji. There are no real switches between tsun, the switches are only between focuses of characters - when she thinks/talks about Kitamura she drolls/blushes while when focus on Ryuuji she becomes mean and selfish.

Also not all tsunderes are what they look. Asuka from evangelion or even the same Louise from ZnT have underlying side... Asuka due to her insecurity and feeling that she can be replaced by a doll and she doesnt even deserve to live and should have died with her mother, thus tries to be the best to be needed by others, to get praise to feed her emptiness of self-worth... Louise, though in anime was butchered terribly, in novels looks like a character who actually has a massive inferiority-complex and tries to keep Saito by her with violence simply because she thinks she is not capable to be attractive, that other girls are more beautiful and better and everything while she is just a failure, zero (anime ignores that part of her character though).

So I cannot say that Taiga is that shockingly deep as a tsundere (if you count her as one, which I do not think it is current at this moment).

Either case, she is too mean to Ryuuji to make her really likable for me. And the reason behind is not well explained in the anime as well. And unlike other tsundere's doenst really show her derdere side towards him (mostly to just Kitamura).

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-10-24 at 11:12.
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Old 2008-10-24, 11:03   Link #64
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I haven't read the novel or anything but I hope Toradora doesn't dwell on the whole Taiga-bashes-Ryuji theme for too many episodes, because it may get old real quick. The first two episodes were incredibly entertaining, perhaps it's time for some plot development.
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Old 2008-10-24, 11:17   Link #65
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I'm guessing we're still ways off until Taiga gets too burnt out by Kitamura to seriously start to see Ryuji being around her.

As for the ep, I almost found it painfully onesided on Taiga's part. Kitamura seems to have a weird habit of popping up. I guess that's a not-so-subtle subconscious aspect that Kitamura maybe not-knowingly is attached to Taiga. Other than that, that was rather drab of an episode compared to ep 2 and 3 IMO.

WE NEED MORE MINORIN!
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Old 2008-10-24, 11:23   Link #66
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@yjs: I suspect the bashing may continue in a minor way (whenever Taiga is unable process her feelings and gets angry) but it already has subdued to mostly implied threats and Ryuuji sidestepped the last attack.

@dark: ya know, I think I agree with the idea that "tsundere" really doesn't effectively describe Taiga, but then I think most of the labels tossed around in anime fandom are shallow and ineffective in describing many of the characters they land on.

Otherwise, I guess I'm seeing that Taiga is becoming more and more comfortable with Ryuuji minute by minute unconsciously even if she reserves her drool for Kitamura still (as Ryuuji still floats away when given a delicious photo of Minorin -- who still has revealed no clue at all as to whether she likes anyone extra special). The kitchen scene was interesting because Taiga just wanted to help ... it was Ryuuji who gave her the idea that it would be she helping to cook for Kitamura after she had started.
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Old 2008-10-24, 11:27   Link #67
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I do not think that she became taht much subdued, it is just that she is not focused on Ryuuji like in previous episode that is less bitchy as she is too busy drooling over Kitamura.

We can talk about her being more comfortable once the focus will be on Ryuuji and Taiga will act friendly and supportive towards Ryuuji's relationship. For now she just seems like same bitch towards Ryuuji, the only reason why we think she is more dere because the focus shifted more to Kitamura and Taiga's drooling over him.
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Old 2008-10-24, 11:53   Link #68
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Like I said in another thread, I think we're providing excellent examples of how people can watch the exact same events and come away with very different interpretations of them.

My speculation is that you're giving more emphasis to primary level action, spoken words, and your vision of what 'friends' are, whereas I'm giving more emphasis to subtext, unspoken currents, voice texture, and body language as well as my vision of what 'friends' are. There may also be social cultural colorings to how each of us are perceiving events but those are messier to quantify.
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Old 2008-10-24, 12:14   Link #69
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It's probably my education - after all I was studying philosophy in college, so I almsot naturally put more meaning towards words and what are writing rather than context as it is too unreliable and too speculative.

Though i cannot say that I do not enjoy it - evangelion is my favorite anime, and not because of giant mechas or fights but because those messages in between. It is just that in Toradora I do not see them being there at all.
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Old 2008-10-24, 12:30   Link #70
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Does anyone think there is any significance in Minorin showing Ryuuji that bucket of pudding first?
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Old 2008-10-24, 12:39   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Does anyone think there is any significance in Minorin showing Ryuuji that bucket of pudding first?
Well, we'd certainly like to think so.... Ryuuji certainly scored with that rather erotic photo of Minorin happily covered in pudding o.O
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Old 2008-10-24, 15:08   Link #72
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Well, we'd certainly like to think so.... Ryuuji certainly scored with that rather erotic photo of Minorin happily covered in pudding o.O
Haha, well said!
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Old 2008-10-24, 15:17   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
Taiga...I'm starting to wonder if tsundere is becoming like, a soft term for bipolar. Now, I know, that isn't right for all tsunderes. But Taiga seems like a special case here considering how often and dramatically she changes. Not to mention over the littlest things. Like, when Ryuuji offered to laminate the photos, it feels like not much was said but Taiga still got upset enough to leave her house. Then we have the scene at the end where after she confessed these things, she immediately tries to kick Ryuuji and yells at him for knowing. Minorin, as we know, is just plain out there. I'm curious to see how Ami will be though in the next episode.
Being bipolar is a lot worse than you seem to think it is (though I'm not speaking from personal experience here, so some of what I say could be wrong as well). It's not rapid changes in mood; having bipolar disorder means going through phases of mania for significant periods of time (and in some cases, the mania is followed by a significant period of depression), and, well...

The closest thing that Taiga would have would be cyclothymia, which is basically a really really mild form of type-II bipolar disorder, but even that isn't quite right, for two reasons. 1) Her mood swings aren't just random; they're affected by her environment (one of the things about all types of bipolar disorder[s] is that the changes in mood are not caused by external forces, but rather just sort of happen). 2) As far as I can tell, Taiga doesn't have periods of mania, then depression, anyway. Her moods are more those of a regular person, just exaggerated.

In short, even though a sub of Lucky Star that I watched used "bipolar" as a translation for "tsundere" (which was an "ugh" moment), the terms are not similar and should not be compared.

...However...I've found something that seems to fit Taiga quite well (though she doesn't necessarily have it; it just fits her character). Emotionally unstable personality disorder (the impulsive kind; the borderline kind is the one that's equivalent to Borderline personality disorder, and Taiga does not have anything like that).
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Old 2008-10-24, 15:26   Link #74
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i liked this episode it was funny and cute.. i was shocked about kitamura confessing to her. it was cute when she was drooling, i think i also caught a glimpse of a pic of ryuuji in that pile that she was trying to hide. the pudding part was funny too. taiga really reminds me of chiaki from miname-ke.(imo)
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Old 2008-10-24, 15:47   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Megex View Post
Being bipolar is a lot worse than you seem to think it is (though I'm not speaking from personal experience here, so some of what I say could be wrong as well). It's not rapid changes in mood; having bipolar disorder means going through phases of mania for significant periods of time (and in some cases, the mania is followed by a significant period of depression), and, well...

The closest thing that Taiga would have would be cyclothymia, which is basically a really really mild form of type-II bipolar disorder, but even that isn't quite right, for two reasons. 1) Her mood swings aren't just random; they're affected by her environment (one of the things about all types of bipolar disorder[s] is that the changes in mood are not caused by external forces, but rather just sort of happen). 2) As far as I can tell, Taiga doesn't have periods of mania, then depression, anyway. Her moods are more those of a regular person, just exaggerated.

In short, even though a sub of Lucky Star that I watched used "bipolar" as a translation for "tsundere" (which was an "ugh" moment), the terms are not similar and should not be compared.

...However...I've found something that seems to fit Taiga quite well (though she doesn't necessarily have it; it just fits her character). Emotionally unstable personality disorder (the impulsive kind; the borderline kind is the one that's equivalent to Borderline personality disorder, and Taiga does not have anything like that).
I know it's a bit much more me to assume that, but it still feels a bit like there's a psychological problem here. It's possible she's in a state of denial because she rejected Kitamura at first, but now realized what a great person he is. And since we already saw the confession, it doesn't look like there will be progress.

I haven't read the novels either, is it just love or is there more inferiority to her? We know she's seperate from her family due to her attitude, but the school seems to respect the anger she has. A ton of people recognize her as cute and as Minori's best friend so her fiery temper doesn't seem to be rooted very well.

It's because of that I feel like the phrase "tsundere" doesn't fit too well with Taiga since she blows her feelings out of preportion with minor issues. It makes sense with her deredere side, but with those shifts it just gets confusing.

Last edited by Nukerjsr; 2008-10-24 at 16:15.
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Old 2008-10-24, 15:55   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
It's because of that I feel like the phrase "tsundere" doesn't fit too well with Taiga since she blows her feelings out of preportion with to minor issues. It makes sense with her deredere side, but with those shifts it just gets confusing.
I agree on this.
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Old 2008-10-24, 16:17   Link #77
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Ooo nice. Sudoh-bucks
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Old 2008-10-24, 16:37   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well, we'd certainly like to think so.... Ryuuji certainly scored with that rather erotic photo of Minorin happily covered in pudding o.O
The episode didn't go so badly for the guy to be sure . Though good thing Taiga didn't get a glimpse of it.

Was at least interesting to get insight into what happened with Taiga and Kitamura in the past. One heck of a confession from that guy .
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:11   Link #79
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Oh yes, forgot to mention this after watching a subbed version: At Sudoh-bucks, Ryuuji saying something like "How is this place not getting sued?" while looking at the logo on the coffee mug. Heh.
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:47   Link #80
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I didn't think it was as funny as previous episodes (although I did lol hard at Ryuuji's "How is this place not getting sued" at Sudohbuck's) but it was fairly entertaining. And the fact that we're still learning stuff about these characters keeps this interesting. Taiga and Kitamura have a complex history.

There were lots of little things in this episode that reveal more and more about these characters, little-by-little. Taiga standing up to the fascistic student council president, Ryuuji taking delight in cleaning mold off the tiles in a public toilet (isn't that the janitor's job), Minori's bucket pudding. Little idiosyncrasies like that is part of what makes good characters.
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