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Old 2008-10-24, 17:21   Link #61
Slayerx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleutheria View Post
The Anaconda has Mantra - she knows what attacks are coming at her, but her physical attacks have no effect on Luffy.
Actually her physical attacks DO hurt Luffy, just like the cobras... When luffy was being squeezed it hurt him... Luffy's comment that "the attack didn't hurt" was because thunder smacked him into the ground... Thunder's direct attacks hurt Luffy because they use Haki, but the ground has no Haki so slamming Luffy into the ground will just be a nomral blunt attack...

Luffy pointed it out to make the point that he was still rubber, and didn't suddenly become vulnerable to blunt attacks


Also, i would say she has mantra-like ability... it could be that one way to use Haki is to use it like you would use mantra... Mantra on the other hand is something you need to be born with; which is the key difference... so far it only seems like only those born in skypeia could be born with mantra... thinking about that, the skypiean supernova should have had mantra himself; i mean, if you're gonna have him be from skypeia then you should get waht you can out of that connection (as it stands, he could have came from west blue with the only difference being a lack of small wings)
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Old 2008-10-24, 17:25   Link #62
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Originally Posted by stigi View Post
Rainbowman, its getting annoying to see that every post you have is concerning Nami and whatever she can do, you are obsessed with her, please go get some help.
Hey, not EVERY post I did is about Nami. You should check out my post in the Shichibukai thread. If you have a problem with my "obsession", you'll just have to deal with it as I'm sure there are fans like me who may have an obsession with other characters. The thing is I have feelings for her, not as a boyfriend but as a gaurdian much like a mother cat with her kittens. If you don't respect my feelings like everyone else, I may have to give you an infraction for inconsiderate behavior. Don't forget, I'm a Senior Member and you stigi are only a Junior Member so I probably outrank you.
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Old 2008-10-24, 18:36   Link #63
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Originally Posted by chitgoks View Post
imagine gear 3 with haki
Luffy: STOP MOVING!
*everyone stops moving, Luffy Giant Pistols a crowd of people...
XD
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:27   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Also, i would say she has mantra-like ability... it could be that one way to use Haki is to use it like you would use mantra... Mantra on the other hand is something you need to be born with; which is the key difference... so far it only seems like only those born in skypeia could be born with mantra... thinking about that, the skypiean supernova should have had mantra himself; i mean, if you're gonna have him be from skypeia then you should get waht you can out of that connection (as it stands, he could have came from west blue with the only difference being a lack of small wings)



We don't know if Urouge actually came from Skypiea, though. His intro simply says that he's a "sky island native", and we DO know that there are other sky islands aside from Skypiea. For all we know, he could have came from Bilca, Eneru's homeland (which he eventually destroyed). After all, we have no idea how long Urouge has been living in the blue seas....
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:30   Link #65
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But i hope that Luffy actually masters Haki and not just randomly unleashes it from time to time when he is angry,cuz this fact pisses me off in animes/mangs (Like Ichigo becoming Hollow when he is angry and after 999 episodes he starts training on it...)I hope that by the end of this arc he learns how to at least activate it...

And i frankly was surprised that Haki gives you such a big power-up,i thought Luffy would kick their asses in 1 shot ;d

Btw did they stop breaking Maria's statue because Luffy's Haki had some kind of involvement in their movements or because they were surprised ?
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:51   Link #66
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by viperx116 View Post
I don't get Luffy's comment on how those attacks aren't suppose to hurt. I didn't know his ability also negates damage. So what about all those fights that he has had? He was badly hurt in most of those.
Even super-powered Moria couldn't hurt Luffy with blunt attacks.

However, a Haki amplified blunt attack can hurt him, even if the underlying power isn't that great.

I sometimes think that Luffy is a bit closer to being Logia user than most Paramecia - he's like the "incarnation of rubber".


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Heh, I like how Luffy's still unaware of the Haki burst he released when he yelled at the sisters (also notice that Hancock's crew withstood the burst, as well... they're pretty tough, after all). However, there's one thing I found particularly interesting: Hancock says that she hasn't fully mastered Haoshoku Haki yet.
Looks like translation error to me. I'm 99% sure she's saying that Luffy can't control it yet.
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Old 2008-10-24, 19:55   Link #67
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now that luffy has had a burst of haki he will defenitly be able to hurt the snake sisters thou i think going into a gear mode will be an overkill as his haki would have had immidiete effect so even normal attacks would work.

GREAT CHAP cant wait till next week......
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Old 2008-10-24, 20:04   Link #68
marvelB
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
Looks like translation error to me. I'm 99% sure she's saying that Luffy can't control it yet.


Er... yeah, I almost forgot.... it looks like it WAS a translation error after all, because that translation I read was edited later on with Hancock saying that it was Luffy who didn't have full mastery of his Haki yet. Well, at least this way we know for sure that Hancock actually has the skills to back up her rotten attitude....
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Old 2008-10-24, 20:13   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
Looks like translation error to me. I'm 99% sure she's saying that Luffy can't control it yet.
Glad that was cleared up.

Officially, Haki has done the following....
-Renders people unconscious
-Haki can be infused with weapons/increase destructive power [Arrows and physcial blows hurting Luffy]
-Forsee movements/attacks [looks like mind reading cause Thunder Sonia had her eye's closed when she announced Luffy's next attack]
-Can Bounce attacks off of them

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelB
edited later on with Hancock saying that it was Luffy who didn't have full mastery of his Haki yet. Well, at least this way we know for sure that Hancock actually has the skills to back up her rotten attitude....
Hancock ain't a Shichibukai for nothing!!

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2008-10-24 at 20:24.
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Old 2008-10-24, 23:10   Link #70
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
Even super-powered Moria couldn't hurt Luffy with blunt attacks.

However, a Haki amplified blunt attack can hurt him, even if the underlying power isn't that great.

I sometimes think that Luffy is a bit closer to being Logia user than most Paramecia - he's like the "incarnation of rubber".
Is it the Haki that is hurting him, or is his power simply being negated? I postulated in the Haki thread that the ability of Haki could be used against Logia users to momentarily negate their power, to forcefully turn them solid (which might be how Rayleigh fought Kizaru), so maybe that is what is going on in this fight. Haki is being used to momentarily 'seal' the Devil Fruit abilities of the opponent. The Snake sisters are using a minor form of Haki to negate Luffy's powers, which, consequently, allows him to be hurt by physical/blunt attacks, which generally have no effect on him.

I am not saying that this idea is correct, rather I am questioning the logistics of a Haki powered punch being that much more powerful than a regular punch from the plethora of strong villains that Luffy has fought. Which is more likely, a Haki-powered punch is 100 times stronger than a punch from Lucci (a man equal if not physically stronger than Luffy), or a Haki-powered punch slips past the devil fruits abilities and deals the damage as if the DF-users body was normal?
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Old 2008-10-25, 02:06   Link #71
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
No, actually the concept of Haki is extremely simple once you understand it. But somehow I can't seem to get it across the ocean lol. We need more Asians here to explain the concept.
I'm asian too, and the way I view Haki was similar to yours when the name was first mentioned when Shanks visits WB and view it by literally both word "ha" and "ki"

However, I view it a little bit different now after Rayleigh fought Kizaru. I personally think Haki is more attune to the general idea of Chi, which is pretty much present in any Asian martial art fiction/comic.

in DB is was a more traditional use as a form of inner energy, in HxH is present as physical manefist of one inner potential, or even chakara from Naruto, reiatsu from Bleach and reiki from YuYu Hakusho. All these are interpretations of the idea of Chi or inner energy.

Instead of taking the word literally, I'm viewing Haki as just the term for OP's incarnation of Chi.

In Asain view, technique can only take you so far without Chi or inner energy backing it up. On the other hand with only Chi with no technique to support it, one is just another person with better endurance, recovery speed, stamina, and strength,etc.

But in OP's case, it seems that Haki's idea is more attune with reiki from YuYu Hakusho.
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Old 2008-10-25, 02:58   Link #72
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I'm curious if haki hurting luffy has any tie to the comic scene with garp during post enies lobby. Where he was hurt by garp's punch because they have emotion. It seems like haki, is some sort of spirit energy. This may explain why luffy actually is damaged by haki attacks? It may be long shot reasoning though.
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Old 2008-10-25, 03:40   Link #73
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Maybe someone thought about this before but...Can Haki be the reason how Blackbeard got a grip on Ace's logia body?
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Old 2008-10-25, 03:46   Link #74
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Maybe someone thought about this before but...Can Haki be the reason how Blackbeard got a grip on Ace's logia body?
No that was just because his unique logia darkness power.
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Old 2008-10-25, 04:37   Link #75
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so does shanks have that Haki power, when he stared at the fihs n it went away?
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Old 2008-10-25, 06:38   Link #76
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Is it the Haki that is hurting him, or is his power simply being negated? I postulated in the Haki thread that the ability of Haki could be used against Logia users to momentarily negate their power, to forcefully turn them solid (which might be how Rayleigh fought Kizaru), so maybe that is what is going on in this fight. Haki is being used to momentarily 'seal' the Devil Fruit abilities of the opponent. The Snake sisters are using a minor form of Haki to negate Luffy's powers, which, consequently, allows him to be hurt by physical/blunt attacks, which generally have no effect on him.

I am not saying that this idea is correct, rather I am questioning the logistics of a Haki powered punch being that much more powerful than a regular punch from the plethora of strong villains that Luffy has fought. Which is more likely, a Haki-powered punch is 100 times stronger than a punch from Lucci (a man equal if not physically stronger than Luffy), or a Haki-powered punch slips past the devil fruits abilities and deals the damage as if the DF-users body was normal?
While i dont like the idea, that haki is a simple damage-powerup, i also dont think that its just a DF-negation. If so, there would be no reason for the amazons (e.g. during the hunt for luffy) to use haki at all, cause they did not realize that luffy is a fruit user. Even the sisters comment about his DF just after a couple of haki attacks.

We already saw more than 1 way to use haki in defence, so i think its rather safe to assume, that we will also see different ways to use haki for offense. This would also make the whole system far complex than the standard "pressure/ki/whatever"-stuff, (which is also kinda foreshadowed due to the existence of a superior and minor "types" of haki). That could open the door to an awesome lot of possible combinations, fitting just fine with the overall-style of OP fighting system.
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Old 2008-10-25, 07:13   Link #77
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Is it the Haki that is hurting him, or is his power simply being negated? I postulated in the Haki thread that the ability of Haki could be used against Logia users to momentarily negate their power, to forcefully turn them solid (which might be how Rayleigh fought Kizaru), so maybe that is what is going on in this fight. Haki is being used to momentarily 'seal' the Devil Fruit abilities of the opponent. The Snake sisters are using a minor form of Haki to negate Luffy's powers, which, consequently, allows him to be hurt by physical/blunt attacks, which generally have no effect on him.

I am not saying that this idea is correct, rather I am questioning the logistics of a Haki powered punch being that much more powerful than a regular punch from the plethora of strong villains that Luffy has fought. Which is more likely, a Haki-powered punch is 100 times stronger than a punch from Lucci (a man equal if not physically stronger than Luffy), or a Haki-powered punch slips past the devil fruits abilities and deals the damage as if the DF-users body was normal?
These sorts of ideas are definitely things we should consider. We can improve our understanding of Oda's use of Haki by collecting data - and using that to either prove or disprove certainly possibilities. Both are useful.

I'd say Oda is almost deliberately trying to shoot down the above possibility in this chapter, since we specifically see Luffy get hit into the ground while wrapped in an opponents Haki - the "Snake Slam" bit. Certainly, Luffy's body in general did not lose DF powers - it's not like he was suddenly dropped in sea water or something.

Luffy's attacks are normally purely physical. Apart from the poison, the case seems to be the same for the sisters. So, apart from the Haki and poison, both sides are simply doing normal physical attacks and have normal physical defences. But Haki makes a big difference to both.

When Luffy does his "Gomu-gomu no stamp", the attack is blocked with a hand and Luffy's foot bounces off the hand. This is more or less what you'd expect if he kicked something metal or otherwise very hard. However, if we recall when Luffy deliberately used the ricochets on Enel's ship, the rebound seems to have lost some power here, rather than bouncing cleanly. Presumably, the hand used for defence had concentrated Haki in it. But it certainly didn't nullify Luffy's rubber DF power since the foot still bounced.

Haki can certainly amplify normal attacks - eg with the arrows fired at Luffy in previous chapters. In some case, it may be easier to think of Haki as simply boosting an attack - eg 10x for the arrows. On the other hand, when used against Luffy, this doesn't seem to be the case since I'm pretty sure even 10x wouldn't be enough to damage Luffy.

In some RPGs you have the concept of "magical damage" which is completely separate to "physical damage". So, if you do an attack with 100 points of physical damage and 1 point of magic damage against an opponent who is 100% resistant to physical damage but 0% resistant to magic damage, then the opponent takes 1 point of (magical) damage. We could then change "magical damage" to "Haki damage". However, this seems like the least likely option to me - because it doesn't scale up with physical ability. Once we see Luffy able to use Haki regularly, I'm sure we'll see that it upgrades all his attacks - but with the "Haki damage" idea, it would boost his weakest attacks the most, which seems unlikely to the route Oda goes with.

In a similar RPG line, it may be easier to think of it as increasing an opponents vulnerability to attacks. So if you do an attack with 100 points of physical damage that also increases the opponents vulnerability to physical attacks by 10%, then against an opponent with 100% resistance to physical damage, you'd do 10 points of damage. This may be a local effect only though - ie only the area hit with a Haki enhanced attack is affected in this way.

If we suppose that Garp's ability to throw cannon balls is dependant on Haki, then we can definitely say it amplifies attacks/power - ie works independently of the opponent.

However, taking a higher level view, it may be that there's multiple uses of Haki and you have to train each one individually. For example, Marygold seems to have trained to use it to reduce the damage caused by hits (hence blocking Luffy's Stamp) while Sandersonia has trained to use it to dodge attacks, and both have used it to enhance the damage caused by attacks.

Luffy and Hancock have Haoushoku Haki - it may be that with that they can boost any ability, including "charisma" type effects. While others have different types/grades (not sure what best term would be) of Haki which means that maybe they can boost some abilities but not others.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. I doubt Oda will go into Hunter x Hunter levels of detail, so we may only get a basic explanation. Will Luffy be able to beat the two sisters with his normal abilities or will he have to use Haki? For example, with Gear 2, Sandersonia may simply not be able to dodge in time, and so gets hit - if she can't reduce the damage caused by opponents' attacks, then once she gets hit it may be over. Similarly for Marygold - if she specifically has to use her hands to block (eg concentrating Haki in her hands) then again, speed may be enough to beat her. It may also be that (like with Tekkai) that a powerful enough attack can still cause damage against an opponent using Haki for blocking defence.

So, Luffy might not need to learn Haki to beat these two, but may well need it to beat Hancock, who can probably use Haki for anything - and use it better.

The Amazons seem to be experts on Haki - they could immediately tell when Luffy was using Haki and what type. It may be that others simply have to learn in individually. Being experts, the Amazons may have specific demonstrations of Haki uses that will enable use to get a better idea of how it works within the story - and so determine which of the above theories, if any, is the right one.
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Old 2008-10-25, 08:30   Link #78
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
I'm asian too, and the way I view Haki was similar to yours when the name was first mentioned when Shanks visits WB and view it by literally both word "ha" and "ki"

However, I view it a little bit different now after Rayleigh fought Kizaru. I personally think Haki is more attune to the general idea of Chi, which is pretty much present in any Asian martial art fiction/comic.

in DB is was a more traditional use as a form of inner energy, in HxH is present as physical manefist of one inner potential, or even chakara from Naruto, reiatsu from Bleach and reiki from YuYu Hakusho. All these are interpretations of the idea of Chi or inner energy.

Instead of taking the word literally, I'm viewing Haki as just the term for OP's incarnation of Chi.

In Asain view, technique can only take you so far without Chi or inner energy backing it up. On the other hand with only Chi with no technique to support it, one is just another person with better endurance, recovery speed, stamina, and strength,etc.

But in OP's case, it seems that Haki's idea is more attune with reiki from YuYu Hakusho.
Actually you're saying just about the same as mine lol

I'm using the the word 'will' in my case instead of 'chi' or 'reiki', because this allows the westerners to understand better.

Your chi is your will, it is your spirtual energy, a lifeforce that you can use to move things or people.

So, actually you and I are understanding the same way. like I said, I'm very sure Asians should understand the concept of Haki quite easily and similarly. That, I'm very glad lol
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Old 2008-10-25, 09:44   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Also, i would say she has mantra-like ability... it could be that one way to use Haki is to use it like you would use mantra... Mantra on the other hand is something you need to be born with; which is the key difference... so far it only seems like only those born in skypeia could be born with mantra... thinking about that, the skypiean supernova should have had mantra himself; i mean, if you're gonna have him be from skypeia then you should get waht you can out of that connection (as it stands, he could have came from west blue with the only difference being a lack of small wings)
LIke I said before:


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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And Men....

Either way, Been born with the ability of Mantra doesn’t necessarily means it is not Haki, for instance, Luffy could had been using Haki all his life without knowing it. So its possible that People that used Mantra were using Haki and thanks to their isolated nature refer to it as Mantra and thought of it as a genetic ability and not something that can be learned.

This is because story wise, it would be strange that the author creates two abilities that do exactly the same, but are not the same ability. (and more when Oda is very creative when it comes to abilities)
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
That just the living in a box mentality, for all the experience they have, that doesn’t mean that they are going to try anything that goes outside their thinking (even more a place in Skipia where they have a strong sense of obedience), if Luffy has been using his haki unconsciously since birth, then we have our first Parallel with Mantra, been that, Having the ability since Birth.

And if you add this to any level of difficulty one person my have in learning to use Haki (because of what I say before) then the simple conclusion for a group of people that have observed this in a isolated place, “You need to be born with it to be able to use it”

The fact that Boa’s sister are using an ability that is basically the same as Mantra, and that Luffy could had been born with Haki talks about an scary similarities between both abilities.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
But it will still be called Mantra, the consequence are another thing…heck, We know so little about the History of Skipia that we really don’t know if this abnormalities have happen before, I mean, If Luffy has been using Haki unconsciously all his life, Why this have not happen in Skipia? The fact is we don’t know.




Like I said before, the problem is the living in a Box mentality, it doesn’t matter how many year of experience you might have, the only thing is to try something different to what you are used to see and do. and based on their beliefs, just for the notion that they believe that this is an ability you need to be born with, is enough to stop them from knowing the complete truth.


Besides that the ability itself is uncommon and maybe even difficult to learn unless you go trought someone that can teach you that, nopt to mention that maybe some could not even learn that.

The fact that they were experienced in Mantra doesn’t exclude them from not knowing everything about it, they only could be ignorant on the matter and that’s it.

At the end, the main problem here is the simple reason that Oda has introduced an Ability that do exactly the Same as another Ability he has used before in this series ( And I’m sure as hell that he is aware of this), and the only difference between those two is how they are called, any other difference used, like what the people in Skipia belive, is moot.

Eihter way, In this chapter Luffy did not used Mantra (or the people from Skipia) as a refference to what was happening, this could hint that the Abbility used by one of the sister and Mantra are different. I will waith until the end of this arc, to be sure about it...
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Old 2008-10-25, 10:21   Link #80
herbert
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I just came up an idea about what is on Boa's back.

Can it be Whitebeard symbol? If she is a former crew member of Whitebeard Pirates, it can explain a lot of things, and also serves a linkage to Ace's execution.
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