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Old 2008-10-26, 21:00   Link #101
Genius-kun
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Haki>DF i think. I mean kizaru has this awesome DF that all these DF wielding captains can't even touch and then rayleigh old man with no DF steps in with haki and starts fighting him on par
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Old 2008-10-27, 09:15   Link #102
BlackNhite
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Originally Posted by Genius-kun View Post
Haki>DF i think. I mean kizaru has this awesome DF that all these DF wielding captains can't even touch and then rayleigh old man with no DF steps in with haki and starts fighting him on par
Again, Haki is like the new DF, the new power(like Super Saijin 2 was the new power to regular Super Saijin).

I'm wondering though, what if a Logia user were to utilize Haki?
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:18   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Sordes Pilosus View Post
Part of this theory started when I began to wonder, why aint Logia user's supreme ? Intil now there hasent really been shown any true big exploitable weakness in Logia user's so why for instance wherent the Marine's or World Goverment heavily attacked by combined Logia user's, its already shown that there are a few of these outside of the Marines, and with Ace being fire one of the Admirals (Ice) already being at a dinstinct disadvantage. And over time why dident this happend ? Well the answer is that there are things that Negates or is capable of Hurting them in their element form. Before Seastones where known, but why where Sea Stones effective ? because they emited the same type of energy as the sea, and this canceled out the Devil Fruits power. The keyword here is Energy. An element is also a form for Energy. And that, is also what Haki is.

Haki:
Haki is as explained by C.A. a manifistation of ones will or Spirit, Spirit Power in tones of games, Flames in Hitman Reborn, Nen in Hunter x Hunter, Chackra in Naruto etc are all based around the same prinsiples or simular concepts but used differently to give them a uniq feel or use in their respective creations. However it doesent change the fact in all the key common element is that its a form for power or energy. And if you clash two Energies against each other, you cause a reaction, if one energy is vastly superior it will "blow away the other" as if two people with bats aim to strike at the same time at each other's bats, the stronger one will dominate the other because he will produce more energy into the swing. So when attacks with Haki meets up against a Logia user's in their elemental form (basicly their hit imunutity) it creates a clash of energies, its not the "attack itself" that hurts the Logia user, but the Haki in the attack. So its quite different from Black Beards fruit that "negates" the ability much like seastones. Haki however creates "sparks or clashes" of energy. And this again harms the Logia user because its the Logia user's body that becommes the "focus point" for the energy clash.

This theory holds alot of waight based on the most recent chapter by this posts creation (Chapter 519) where the two younger Boa sister's is capable of inflicting Physical/Blunt attacks that directly harms Luffy's rubber body. This is because these attacks that does this dammage is imbued with Haki, this means that the Haki in the attacks directly harms the target even if a fruit power would naturaly make the person imune to it. Raighlith's fight against the Admiral on the Archipello also indicates or more acuraly proves that Haki based attacks is capable of clashing with Logia user's. But its not like Haki removes the fruit abilities, it just allows a method of harming the Logia user. But attacks with Haki also becommes naturaly stronger against Non Logia oponents, the Arrows fired by the Kuja proves this fact as they becomme much stronger and Margaret also explains that its only natural for attacks imbued with Haki. If we piece together these informations that has been presented to us so far regarding Haki, we get the general direction on how and why Logia user's aint the "Most Dominate" while they have the strongest powerups in their fruits, they have a natural enemie on the "higher stages" that limits their value, its like Logia instantly boosts you from level 1 to 70, but with stil alot of levels 70+ around and that Logia fruits are so rare since there is a more distinct limit to amount of Elements it creates the reason why Logia user's arent the "strongest around", that their insanly strong naturaly is a given. But it adds a enemie to Logia user's alongside their Natural Enemies/Oposiing Elements or Seastones that is harder to avoid in battle.

And other reason why Haki can harm Logia "Its a plot device needed at this point of time due to the Straw Hats distinct inability to deal with a now growing range of Logia user's around them. 2 Admirals and 1 Commander with Logia has already gone up against them which they are unable to fight. There is also Black Beard while he takes physical dammage he can negate other fruits so a other form for attack that doesent rely on fruits is needed here. And then we have seen Crockodile, Enel and Ace as 3 other Logia user's. And there are stil a few posibilities left for Logia types they can encounter in the New World, Haki presents the crew with a Method of fighting these enemies thats sure to come and acting as the natural buffer, and its not sudden either just well hidden in the manga so far. This indicates its something planed from the start to act as a natural powerup at the very least for Luffy, but also likly some more of his crew.
I think I agree to most of your points.

Actually what you said about giving unique feels to the energies and lifeforces is quite true lol

But Oda using Haki as it fundamentally works, makes the story more down to earth. Its a competition based on will and just will alone, not amazing energy sources that seem to come out of nowhere. Its basically who has the stronger will wins and it shows how strong mentally and how determined the characters are. Its a powerup 'system' that develops with character and not just an energy source that can be acquired out of nowhere.

And 'imbue' is a nice word to use for Haki based attacks. When you put enough will into an attack, be sure of it and give it your all, you will hit that opponent well and hard, because you wanted to do that and made sure you did it. If you have doubts of your own abilities, you will not be putting your absolute best, giving your opponents that chance to escape.

When Kizaru fought with Rayleigh, its the best example so far of will vs will. Rayleigh being saw upon by Kizaru as weaker than his prime, is experiencing Kizaru's will against him. But Rayleigh stated, he will not let Kizaru get the Strawhats no matter what, again he's displaying his opposing will. The scene is also brilliantly set up by Oda as a 'Sabre-lock', the locking of swords. In such a situation, both parties have to resist against each other, the one who softens and lets go will get sliced. One who does not have the will and determination to hang on will lose, contest of wills.
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Old 2008-10-29, 12:30   Link #104
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There's been speculation before about the possibility of Whitebeard dying. If he dies but Ace is rescued then maybe Ace could join the Strawhats...

Nothing new there, but let's bring in some more recent elements.

It seems to me that there's a very good chance that Whitebeard has Haoushoku Haki - a good bet for all Yonkou, frankly.

Consider this from the point of view of Ace - he's a strong and powerful person but before Whitebeard (and his Haoushoku Haki), you can understand him being impressed. In other words, such a scenario makes it more plausible how a strong and independent guy like Ace could become a loyal member of the Whitebeard crew.

Now consider what could happen if we see Luffy learn an awful lot about Haki in the coming days - by the time they next meet Luffy's "aura" could clearly different. That could make it far for understandable for Ace to switch loyalties to Luffy (though I think this would only happen if Whitebeard dies anyway).

This is not to say we should expect the above scenario to happen, but more of a way to include Haki in future speculation, and also to (potentially) help explain previous events.
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Old 2008-10-29, 23:36   Link #105
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It is very true that IF Whitebeard dies, which is frankly very likly since it would introduce alot of Turmoil into the New World with one of its "Emporor's" gone, it would create a power vacum and with all the new Rookies etc comming into the New World it would create a "Situation where a New Area can be born" Which would fit well with what Oda has been building up so far.

However the chances of Ace joining is slim, Id estimate in % Only around 10%. The % of him dieing is around 25%, its not easy to rescue a person thats on "Death Row" who likly has seastone cuffs on and with armed guards that could kill him if all comes to worse. The biggest % However is that he ends up leading alot of the surviving Whitebeard Pirates, quite alot of them will die. Likly maybe 1 or 2 Ships survive after Ace is Rescued, they retreat and Ace takes over as Captain for atlest one of the ships and perhaps Marco takes the other. This is a far more likly situation since its hard to belive Oda will actualy kill off Ace, unless Oda plans to stage a massive "Strawhats vs Blackbeard" anytime soon, which i would find strange because Blackbeard is being buildt up as a more "Grandscale" Enemie later down the road.
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Old 2008-10-30, 10:15   Link #106
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Well, in the latest chapter, we see Marigold, one of the Gorgon sisters, use Haki to control fire. Also, it's commented that Sandersonia's Orochi technique transforms her hair into snakes with "fangs of steel". Judging from this, it looks like Haki users can be quite creative with how they manipulate their Haki, infusing it into various objects and substances. It'll be quite interesting to see the various ways Haki will be used in future storylines....
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Old 2008-10-30, 10:27   Link #107
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Seeing that everything goes to extremes in One Piece, Oda can stretch Haki as much as he wants.

Haki has been stretched in similar ways in Chinese manhwa, arrows that transform into firey phoenixes, materialising blades using Haki and doing stuff similar to 'Unlimited Blade Works' etc.

Even the basic 'Hadoken' from Street Fighter has Haki fundamentals.
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Old 2008-10-30, 10:59   Link #108
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Moving hair reminds me of this one CP9 guy... if he also was using Haki without knowing it?

Ah... you mean Kumadori (who is, coincidentally, featured on my avatar that I haven't changed for like, 2 years )? It's possible that CP9's been using Haki for some of their Rokushiki techniques all along (I already stated earlier that I thought Roku Ougan was a Haki technique). Now that we see CP9 visiting their old training ground in the ministory, we may learn more about the secrets behind Rokushiki (and maybe Life Returns)....




Oh, and a bit off-topic, but I wonder if Luffy and co. will run into Kumadori's mother in the future? Despite the fact that he keeps referring to her as if she were dead, Oda revealed in an SBS that she was still alive, and is an active assassin. So we could either see her in the main storyline as an enemy/ally (hey, with Oda, having an old kabuki assassin lady as an ally is not impossible ), or she could turn out to be one of the Rokushiki masters training the new generation of CP9....
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Old 2008-10-30, 12:14   Link #109
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I doubt Haki is as "rare" as you put it, Oda's been spmming us with possible and proven Haki users ever since he hit his "half-way" point so I'm willing to bet that Haki users are as common in the New World as Devil Fruit users were said to be common in the Grand Line.

The only rare thing I can discern about Haki is what type as it seems the power manifests in various ways. Luffy's "King's Spirit" for example...
It probably isn't that rare, but for a well developed one it is rare. How often do you see people able to use their haki to knock people unconscious?? The top players in the grand line are probably the only ones who can control their haki that well. Even Boa said that she hasn't fully mastered hers yet.
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Old 2008-10-30, 12:22   Link #110
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Yes, Haki itself is not rare, its Haki which had grown in people to be strong enough to be harnessed into a powerful force, that's rare.

And even rarer, is Haki as strong as Luffy's, which from the million's of Haki that can be used as an energy source, is most powerful.

And at Boa not mastering her Haki, its actually a mistranslation and mentioned earlier on somewhere in this subforum. That line is actually pointing to Luffy. Luffy's Haki right now is like a raw diamond that needs polishing. And once polished will become invaluable.
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Old 2008-10-30, 17:04   Link #111
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I just read a few pages because i'm lazy now and i'm ot going to read everything. But many people believe haki is rare and just some people have it. That's why i agree with C.A. Haki it self is not rare. Indeed i strongly believe everybody have it. And not talking about the part of haki as the energy and spirit everybody have, but also as the power. Everybody have it but it's dormant in almost everybody except for those few who have either 'learn it' or like Luffy have been able to wake it by something strong happening (like and emotion or desire). I don't believe in the bible and such, but in some part (i don't remember if it was when he was walking on the water or healing people) He said to one of his disciples that EVERYBODY was capable of it and much more. Look how a man believed by many to be a god actually said that anybody was capable of doing what he did. And many people still don't believe that can do anything. And i'm not talking about the powers here but they believe they can't even change minimal things in their lives!!

Now after reading ch. 519 again i saw that one of the amazon said. 'Only one in a million is 'capable of USING it'. Even when she also said "The Haki of the chosen ones" she doesn't say ' only one in a million have it' or something like that. So…that's why I believe everybody have it and i would go as far as saying everybody can be capable of using the Haoushoku. But not everybody can. sounds contradictory?? Take it this way. Everybody can get in shape and strong (unless you have some physical problem), but not everybody is, even when many want. Ask your self; why?? It's simple. I believe something like that happens with haki and specially the haoushoku.
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Old 2008-10-31, 08:41   Link #112
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It probably isn't that rare, but for a well developed one it is rare. How often do you see people able to use their haki to knock people unconscious?? The top players in the grand line are probably the only ones who can control their haki that well. Even Boa said that she hasn't fully mastered hers yet.
Well, again, we haven't reached the new world so there's no telling what kind of madness that section of the Grand Line has in store.
With the Emperors running around, I stick by my beliefs that Haki will be a minimal requirement just to survive out there.
I get what you're saying, Haki masters may be rare but the art in general is probably quite common.
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Old 2008-10-31, 08:46   Link #113
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Alright, let's be done with this "supply and demand" theory of Haki and move on to something else.

So, we've been shown throughout Luffy's fight with Sonia and Marygold that Haki comes in a variety of types. From hardening weapons, predicting movement, overwhelming opponents, and even, at least I think she used Haki, lighting oneself on fire...

So I bring up an argument, does Haki have any limits?
Or is it something completely subject to the will of the user?
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Old 2008-10-31, 09:15   Link #114
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So I bring up an argument, does Haki have any limits?
Or is it something completely subject to the will of the user?


Yes, I'm inclined to believe that it depends on the user's will myself. The stronger a person's will is, the stronger their Haki will be. And in turn, they'll force those who have weaker wills into submission, often subconsciously (as was demonstrated by Shanks, Rayleigh, and now Luffy). Obviously, a strong will is a necessity for those who want to reach the "Pirate's Summit"....
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Old 2008-11-01, 21:33   Link #115
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haki and sakki are not able to do "physical" harm to people, living things, and inanimate objects and instead weaken the wills of others.




Off-topic: After following all the haki talk, with the occasional sakki mention, I thought about applying such concepts to other series for kicks. Amazing how much one can describe whole situations in terms of haki and sakki. For example, I applied the concepts to Elfen Lied and found in general overview that the series has massive sakki levels that go off the charts.
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Old 2008-11-01, 23:08   Link #116
harijaja
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haki and sakki are not able to do "physical" harm to people, living things, and inanimate objects and instead weaken the wills of others.




Off-topic: After following all the haki talk, with the occasional sakki mention, I thought about applying such concepts to other series for kicks. Amazing how much one can describe whole situations in terms of haki and sakki. For example, I applied the concepts to Elfen Lied and found in general overview that the series has massive sakki levels that go off the charts.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it Shank's haki that was damaging some parts of Whitebeard ship?!?!!?
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Old 2008-11-02, 03:33   Link #117
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Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haki and sakki are not able to do "physical" harm to people, living things, and inanimate objects and instead weaken the wills of others.




Off-topic: After following all the haki talk, with the occasional sakki mention, I thought about applying such concepts to other series for kicks. Amazing how much one can describe whole situations in terms of haki and sakki. For example, I applied the concepts to Elfen Lied and found in general overview that the series has massive sakki levels that go off the charts.
Applying Sakki to Elfenlied sound pretty accurate lol

While our Haki theories here can be applied to many situations in One Piece so far, Oda has not shown us the full extent of Haki's capabilities. For that we can not really say what Haki can do beyond what we have seen.

Haki and Sakki does weaken wills and is exactly what's happening in most cases. But if two people of extremely high will clash, it will be a will 'topping over another situation'. These people's wills are so strong, they don't falter, but they can still be defeated if the opponent's will is stronger in the end. And if 2 wills are both exceedingly strong, we get something like Shanks vs Whitebeard, their wills don't bend but other things, maybe the sky bends for them lol

But I just looked through the Shanks and White Beard meeting, I didn't see any damaging of White Beard's ship at all though.
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Old 2008-11-02, 12:39   Link #118
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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But I just looked through the Shanks and White Beard meeting, I didn't see any damaging of White Beard's ship at all though.
Look carefully at the bottom right panel on page 5 of chapter 434. You will see that Shanks' "Haki" inflicts some small cracks above the head of the unconscious victim and to his side.

Here is my definition of "Haki". Tell me what you think C.A.

Haki - The ambition, willpower, drive, and vigor that all individuals possess in different degrees. It is the impetus that allows one to persevere, and thus, overcome nearly anything depending on its magnitude/level.
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Old 2008-11-02, 12:46   Link #119
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But I just looked through the Shanks and White Beard meeting, I didn't see any damaging of White Beard's ship at all though.
I must be confused Because just as 'Blackbeard D. Kuma' says there are small cracks and in the anime i remember it clearly showed up some part been damage!!
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Old 2008-11-02, 13:10   Link #120
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Look carefully at the bottom right panel on page 5 of chapter 434. You will see that Shanks' "Haki" inflicts some small cracks above the head of the unconscious victim and to his side.

Here is my definition of "Haki". Tell me what you think C.A.

Haki - The ambition, willpower, drive, and vigor that all individuals possess in different degrees. It is the impetus that allows one to persevere, and thus, overcome nearly anything depending on its magnitude/level.
Hmmm I see, I guess I missed it while flipping through the pages when I was 'checking' lol

I don't watch the anime though. I did watch but I stuck back at 200+, when I have some time to continue, I will.

Your definition of Haki is pretty good, I think you can use that as a first hand explanation to most people. If they can't connect your definition to what they're seeing, you can easily expand from the definition as it highlights the main factors and meanings of the word.
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No longer a NEET so I'll not be online as often.
Ignore gender and kick sexuality to the curb!
I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
When I say 'My god...', god refers to Haruhi-sama.

My art album updated 11th May 2013, Science.
Deviant Art: http://ca0001.deviantart.com/
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