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Old 2008-10-28, 12:42   Link #2461
NyxOne
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...The Titans were around years ago when ace pilots were incredibly (read: INCREDIBLY) prominent, and the Titans' ruthlessness also had a factor as well, and the Titans and the Brits aren't comparable in the slightest.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:00   Link #2462
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
...The Titans were around years ago when ace pilots were incredibly (read: INCREDIBLY) prominent, and the Titans' ruthlessness also had a factor as well, and the Titans and the Brits aren't comparable in the slightest.
So because Gundam Seed Destiny had crappy mecha battles, than its okay for Code Geass to have crappy mecha battles?

The point is that the reason people watch Code Geass isn't for the mecha battles which by and large sucked (in particular in R2), they watch it for Lelouch, and with Lelouch gone that means no Code Geass.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:07   Link #2463
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
So because Gundam Seed Destiny had crappy mecha battles, than its okay for Code Geass to have crappy mecha battles?

The point is that the reason people watch Code Geass isn't for the mecha battles which by and large sucked (in particular in R2), they watch it for Lelouch, and with Lelouch gone that means no Code Geass.
To expand on that, without Lelouch and the elements he added to Code Geass, CG would have just been another mecha anime.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:12   Link #2464
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Again, as well, SEED/SD and CG aren't comparable. At all. They have entirely different material, entirely different characters, and entirely different directors. If you were talking about another Gundam series in the Cosmic Era or wherever else, your comparison might have been a valid one.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:18   Link #2465
Charred Knight
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Again, as well, SEED/SD and CG aren't comparable. At all. They have entirely different material, entirely different characters, and entirely different directors. If you were talking about another Gundam series in the Cosmic Era or wherever else, your comparison might have been a valid one.
You pointed out that Aces where not as important as they where in the 80's, and I said just because GSD had crappy mecha battles doesn't make it okay for Code Geass too as well.

Code Geass simply doesn't have the aces that Zeta Gundam, or 00 Gundam have, it has nothing to do with what time period they where made it, 00 Gundam proved that by giving us Ali, Graham, Segei, Soma, and Patrick.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:43   Link #2466
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They aren't important as they were, for the most part. 00 Gundam's only proven that it's set itself apart from the more recent Gundam series by giving us good aces- and that's a good thing.

And the only battle I consider iffy is Suzaku's debut in the Albion. But upon reflection, Monica and Dorothea couldn't fight back, because, actually due to logical reasons now that I look back on it because the 'Old Emperor Fraction' had very limited resources, they were stuck in a Sutherland and Gloucester against a godly 9th gen. I was and am still miffed, but...yeah.
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Old 2008-10-28, 14:12   Link #2467
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They aren't important as they were, for the most part. 00 Gundam's only proven that it's set itself apart from the more recent Gundam series by giving us good aces- and that's a good thing.

And the only battle I consider iffy is Suzaku's debut in the Albion. But upon reflection, Monica and Dorothea couldn't fight back, because, actually due to logical reasons now that I look back on it because the 'Old Emperor Fraction' had very limited resources, they were stuck in a Sutherland and Gloucester against a godly 9th gen. I was and am still miffed, but...yeah.
In the final battle the Zeon used Gelgoog, while the Federation used GM which are slightly better than Zaku II, which was what Zeon used to start the war. The Federation still won because Zeon had been using recruits fresh out of the academy, while the Federation where using heavily trained veterans.

The difference between the Lancelot Albion, and the mechs used by the KoR are not so drastic that a person of similar strength would be killed in seconds. Dorothea, and Monica just planned sucked, Tamaki was a better pilot than those two.

To give another example this time from SRW, Kai Kitamura using the Genspenst MkII can easily defeat pilots using superior machines like the Guarlion since Kai is a famous Ace pilot, and the pilots of the Guarlion are not.

Like I said, I don't see why the fans have to accept lazy battles like the ones seen in Gundam Seed Destiny, and Code Geass R2, if your not going to come up with good fight choregraphy than don't have a battle.

I should also point out that Divine Wars had some great aces like Sanger Zonvolt, and Elzam Von Branstein, that's not including the great one episode aces like Levi Tohlar, Bian Zoldark, and Shuu Shirakawa. Their have been some recent series with great battle choreography, Code Geass R2 is just not one of them, way to many battles just copy the GSD "one ace shows up and blows away the other side" which is just plain lazyness.
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Old 2008-10-28, 14:21   Link #2468
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Superior machines certainly do not help when you put rookies in them and tell them to 'Go die for the glory of our nation, hail Zeon!' and all that. Though I don't see how that's related.

Dorothea and Monica didn't suck, because they didn't have time to do anything. The Albion came along, and wrecked their shit up in about 10 seconds flat, because fifth-gen KMFs, which are, at a stretch, mere modifications of fourth-gen Frames (at least the Sutherland is), do not match up to something that goes at the speed of bloody sound. And there is also no proof that Tamaki, though I know your barb is probably sarcastic to a degree, would be a better pilot. He just had the typical 'insane survivability' knack. Every time he sortied, or almost every time, he got shot down, and got himself into situations where he would have died, but the man refuses to do so- Luciano's missile bombardment, several shoot-downs by Suzaku, and...yeah.

And as for the SRW thing, I don't know what to take that as other than you agreeing with me. Because Suzaku, in a superior machine, mopped the bloody floor with the Rounds.
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Old 2008-10-28, 14:33   Link #2469
bladeofdarkness
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interestingly the galahad (which might well be the strongest 8th gen) was able to match him for a long while (till he used the geass order to push the machine past the point where the galahad could keep up)
granted the pilot was able to see the future but the fact that the machine was able to keep up with the albion for as long as it did seems to implay that there isnt THAT MUCH of a difference in machine power (except for the speed granted by the wings)
we know that the shen-hu was ment to be a super strong machine with such high specs that no pilot could handle it
but xing-ke was never able to use it to its real potential (both kallen and gino matched and out manuvered him in machines that logiclly should be much weaker)
so my theory is that the 9th gens are only as strong as the pilots using them
becouse unlike the other machines who's specs are limited no matter the pilot skill (like an ace pilot in a mook mecha)
but rather the machine can do everything that the pilot wants it to (the limit is set by the pilot's own skill rather then machine potential)
thats why the galahad was able to keep up with the albion for a while but couldnt match up once the pilot went into seed mode (the pilots potential increased)
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Old 2008-10-28, 14:36   Link #2470
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Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Superior machines certainly do not help when you put rookies in them and tell them to 'Go die for the glory of our nation, hail Zeon!' and all that. Though I don't see how that's related.

Dorothea and Monica didn't suck, because they didn't have time to do anything. The Albion came along, and wrecked their shit up in about 10 seconds flat, because fifth-gen KMFs, which are, at a stretch, mere modifications of fourth-gen Frames (at least the Sutherland is), do not match up to something that goes at the speed of bloody sound. And there is also no proof that Tamaki, though I know your barb is probably sarcastic to a degree, would be a better pilot. He just had the typical 'insane survivability' knack. Every time he sortied, or almost every time, he got shot down, and got himself into situations where he would have died, but the man refuses to do so- Luciano's missile bombardment, several shoot-downs by Suzaku, and...yeah.

And as for the SRW thing, I don't know what to take that as other than you agreeing with me. Because Suzaku, in a superior machine, mopped the bloody floor with the Rounds.
Kai Kitamura mopped up the Divine Crusaders using an INFERIOR machine. Kai even states that the machine doesn't matter its the pilot.

The fact that Suzaku defeated them in seconds is due entirely to Monica and Dorothea being shitty pilots not Suzaku being a great one. I don't believe in Informed Ability
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Old 2008-10-28, 14:39   Link #2471
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Kai Kitamura mopped up the Divine Crusaders using an INFERIOR machine. Kai even states that the machine doesn't matter its the pilot.

The fact that Suzaku defeated them in seconds is due entirely to Monica and Dorothea being shitty pilots not Suzaku being a great one. I don't believe in Informed Ability
suzaku beat kallen in ep 2 in a heartbeat
why ?
lancelot vs one armed and one harken'd glassgo
10 eps later and she fights him on equal grounds with the guren
the pilot can be awesome as hell but in a lesser machine he's no match (also the reason why suzaku got his ass kicked by the SEITEN in ep 18, machine potential)
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Old 2008-10-28, 15:00   Link #2472
NyxOne
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There is a very, very stark difference between the pilot being shit, and the pilot not having the time to do anything. Dorothea didn't even see the VARIS blast incoming until it was too late, and Suzaku dashed up to Sutherland-bound Monica (take note, the Albion and SEITEN were the fastest damn KMFs ever made) and shot her at point-blank range.

Or did you expect the Rounds to beat the pinnacle of KMF tech in grunt units?
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Old 2008-10-28, 15:04   Link #2473
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku beat kallen in ep 2 in a heartbeat
why ?
lancelot vs one armed and one harken'd glassgo
10 eps later and she fights him on equal grounds with the guren
the pilot can be awesome as hell but in a lesser machine he's no match (also the reason why suzaku got his ass kicked by the SEITEN in ep 18, machine potential)
Which to me is just lazy writing, Okouchi believes that by telling the audience that someone is a great pilot that automatically makes them a great pilot, Terada, and Tomino know better.

I expected that Okouchi would give a damn, and write an actual battle, instead Okouchi got lazy
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Old 2008-10-28, 15:06   Link #2474
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Why do you consistently compare Okouchi to Terada or Tomino when he's not Terada or Tomino? If he has his own definition of who's a great pilot or not (though it's not as simple as you put it), let him have it.
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Old 2008-10-28, 15:18   Link #2475
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Translated from Continue vol.42, a brief timeline of Lelouch's life:

Lelouch’s Lifetime

- 1962 a.t.b/Britannia
Emperor Charles vi [sic] Britannia of the Holy Empire of Britannia makes a promise with his older twin brother V.V.
Knight of Honor, Marianne the Flash, becomes an imperial consort.

- 2000 a.t.b/Britannia/Lelouch, Age 0
Lelouch is born.
He is the 11th Prince and 17th in line for throne succession. His father is Emperor Charles with Imperial Consort Marianne.

- 2004 a.t.b/Britannia/Lelouch, Age 4
Nunnally is born.
She is Lelouch’s sister. Her father is Emperor Charles with Imperial Consort Marianne.

- 2010 a.t.b/Britannia → Japan (Area 11)/Lelouch, Age 10
Marianne is assassinated; Nunnally becomes blind, her legs are crippled.
Lelouch and Nunnally are disinherited, banished; banished to Japan by Emperor Charles.
They come to know Kururugi Suzaku.
Occupation of Japan; Japan is occupied by the Holy Empire of Britannia.
Suzaku and Lelouch vow rebellion.
Lelouch is admitted to school; he goes to Ashford Academy with the last name of Lamperouge.

- 2017 a.t.b/Area 11/Lelouch, Age 17
Lelouch contracts with C.C.; the Shinjuku incident. He gains the ability (Geass) that can order around anyone for just once.
Viceroy of Area 11 is assassinated; Using his Geass power, Lelouch murders 3rd Prince Clovis.
Zero debuts; Lelouch dons a mask, takes on the name Zero, and rescues the suspect of the Viceroy assassination, Suzaku.
Zero’s mask is stolen; the mask is stolen by Arthur the cat. Lelouch panics.
Lelouch hoists the flag of the Black Knights; taking advantage of the terrorism at Lake Kawaguchi, Lelouch announces his own army.
Battle for Narita; the Black Knights defeat Britannia’s army.
Geass user Mao appears; Lelouch cooperates with Suzaku and defeats Mao.
Using the Geass on Suzaku; Zero (Lelouch) puts the Geass of “Live” on Suzaku.
Ruins are discovered on Kamine Island; V.V. guides Lelouch to the ruins.
War at Kyushu; the Chinese Federation advances from Fukuoka Base. Suzaku of Britannia and Zero (Lelouch) of the Black Knights defeat it.
Declaration at the School Festival; Lelouch participates in a school festival at Ashford Academy as a student.
Establishment of Specially Administrated Zone of Japan; 3rd Princess Euphemia plans the restoration of the Japanese people.
Euphemia massacre; Lelouch’s Geass suddenly goes out of control. Euphemia massacres Japanese people in the Specially Administrated Zone of Japan.
Concept for United State of Japan; opposing the concept for Specially Administrated Zone of Japan, Zero advocates the creation of a new nation.
Black Rebellion; Japanese people who are angered by the massacre advance to the Tokyo Settlement along side the Black Knights. With the disappearance of Zero (Lelouch), the Black Knights fall apart.
Nunnally is kidnapped; right in the middle of the Black Rebellion, Nunnally is kidnapped. Lelouch reveals the true identity of Zero to Suzaku and seeks his cooperation. However, Suzaku rejects.
Memory modified; With his memories rewritten by Emperor Charles, Lelouch returns to school at Ashford Academy as bait to capture C.C.

- 2018 a.t.b/Area 11/Lelouch, Age 18
Memories recovered; he reunites with C.C. Lelouch regains his memories.
Recovering the Black Knights; Zero is revived. The Black Knights who were imprisoned after the Black Rebellion return.
Knight of Seven welcome party; the celebration of Suzaku’s arrival at Area 11 is held at Ashford Academy. Lelouch participates as a student.
Zero exiled; Zero cooperates with the condition of exile in Viceroy Nunnally’s inherited concept of Specially Administrated Zone of Japan. One million Japanese people masquerade as Zero and are exiled to the Chinese Federation.
Tianzi’s wedding ceremony; The puppet ruler of the Chinese Federation, Tianzi, enters a strategic marriage with the 1st Prince of Britannia. Zero kidnaps Tianzi.
Fortress Battle at the 88th Emperor’s Monument - Pursuing Tianzi, the Chinese Federation goes on full-on assault against the Black Knights. The Black Knights drive them back.
Cupid Day; wearing a balloon hat on your head, you become a couple with the first person to take it off. Held at Ashford Academy.
Shirley is murdered; jealous, Lelouch’s fake brother, Rolo, murders Lelouch’s female classmate Shirley.
Geass hunt; the Geass Directorate, which researches and succeeds the Geass ability, is annihilated by Zero’s orders.
United Federation of Nations Resolution Number One; by Zero’s suggestion, the United State of Japan and United State of China unite with 47 other countries and become the United Federation of Nations.
The second decisive battle of Tokyo; as a resolution of the United Federation of Nations, the Black Knight dares to recover Japan. It is decimated by the explosion of F.L.E.I.J.A.
The Black Knights surrender; learning the power of Geass and knowing that the true identity of Zero is Lelouch, the Black Knights revolt against him.
The Ragnarök Connection; Emperor Charles and Marianne begin the Ragnarök Connection in C’s World. They are prevented by Lelouch.
Lelouch assumes Emperor; Lelouch ascends the position of Emperor of Britannia.
Imperial capital Pendragon vanishes; the imperial capital of Britannia vanishes with the F.L.E.I.J.A. that 2nd Prince Schneizel fired.
Old emperor faction VS Britannian army; Schneizel rallies. Along side the Black Knights, he enters the final decisive battle against the Britannian army led by Lelouch.
Zero Requiem; the Emperor of Britannia, Lelouch, is murdered by Zero. Zero becomes a hero.

Then there's the even longer official death list in the magazine, which I haven't gotten around to translating yet. ^^;; Both of them put Lelouch's death as the last significant thing on the list.
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Old 2008-10-28, 15:50   Link #2476
Charred Knight
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Why do you consistently compare Okouchi to Terada or Tomino when he's not Terada or Tomino? If he has his own definition of who's a great pilot or not (though it's not as simple as you put it), let him have it.
It's bad writing, you just can't claim that someone is something, you actually have to show it.

If I write a book, and claim that someone is one of the greatest swordsman than have the greatest swordsman show up and kill him in seconds, than obviously the first guy isn't one of the greatest swordsman. Any half wit could of written the Old Emperor faction vs. Suzaku battle.

Like I said Okouchi can write mecha battles, the Lelouch vs. Cornelia battle in the first season finale was excellent, his other battles are similarly exciting since lelouch uses cunning in them.

He chose to get rid of three characters in a lazy fashion.
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Old 2008-10-28, 16:34   Link #2477
NyxOne
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Do you even understand what I am very clearly telling you? I'll put it simply, 'kay?

Sutherland and Gloucester.

5th gen.

Armaments: the usual stuff, plus a Chaos Mine or two for the Gloucester and its lance.

Abilities: the usual stuff.


Lancelot Albion.

9th gen.

Armaments: Two MVSes, two Super VARISes with extreme long-range capability (official name by the way), four Slash Harkens, and energy feathers for widespread bombardment.

Abilites: Can pretty much trample anything below it, and can move at the speed of sound. All that's needed to be listed, not to mention Suzaku's skill.

Even if Monica and Dorothea did have time to do something, they would still have been fucked anyway because the tech gap was so massive, it's...a fifth gen facing up against a Frame that is a technological marvel and could be considered a god amongst Frames is tantamount to suicide. Bismarck got lucky, because he had an eighth-gen Frame (still didn't help all that much, but he reacted) and his Geass. Dorothea and Monica never had a chance, and you see that as laziness. Put yourself in their shoes. Either Suzaku's just shot at you from miles away or he's zoomed up to you and is about to shoot you point blank, and you're also in a bottom of the barrel KMF. Would you be able to do anything?

Last edited by NyxOne; 2008-10-28 at 16:45.
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Old 2008-10-28, 16:51   Link #2478
bladeofdarkness
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suzaku is by all accounts one of the best pilots in the show
but when he was using the conquesta (8th gen) against the SEITEN he got pownd with ease
you expect two pilots (who probably arent even as good as suzaku) to go up against a machine about as powerfull as the SEITEN (we dont really know how big the spec difference was) in machines that are much weaker then the conquesta and NOT get trashed
when the machine differnce is THAT big then it doesnt matter who you are
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Old 2008-10-28, 17:29   Link #2479
ZingFreelancer
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Let me put an example from Naruto.

If two Ninjas of equal skill meet in battle, the one with a sharper sword will win.

Suzaku have the skill, he is hard to be hit with a fatal blow due to the "Live on" geass and he have a mecha with slightly bigger, better guns.
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Old 2008-10-28, 19:02   Link #2480
lovecakecookies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li Jianliang View Post
Translated from Continue vol.42, a brief timeline of Lelouch's life:

Spoiler for ..:


THank you for the translations!!

I wonder if a spin/off or sequel that includes C.C/Nunnally/Suzaku/Kallen came out and if Lulu was NOT in it.. I wonder if people would STILL believe he is alive...

probably right?
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