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Old 2008-11-06, 21:53   Link #61
marvelB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya View Post
A lot more believable than the Boa is Luffy's mom theory.


Well, the chief reason people (like myself) had the idea that Hancock is Luffy's mother is pretty much because of one person: Kuma. See, at the end of Thriller Bark, he reveals that he knew about Luffy being Dragon's son, and that's not exactly common knowledge (remember how Garp's marines all freaked out when they found out about Dragon's identity?). Then at Sabaody, we see him have his little chat with Rayleigh, where he said he was "putting himself at risk" by making the Straw-Hats disappear. This is when people started to believe that Kuma was somehow connected to Dragon.


So basically, fans speculated that there was some particular reason why Kuma sent Luffy to Amazon Lily. Why would he send Luffy to a remote island in the Calm Belt where men are forbidden from entering? Sure, it's interesting to see that the inhabitants are knowledgable about Haki, but could there have been a deeper reason? Maybe he was told of an important person who lived on the island from Dragon? And that's pretty much how people came to the conclusion that Luffy would meet his mother at the island, and well.... Hancock seemed to be the most likely candidate. And lo and behold, a grand (and potentially controversial) theory was born!



....A theory that has yet to be debunked, I might add.
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Old 2008-11-06, 22:20   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Frankly, those are not good examples. You are focusing on something which you cannot control cause it may be related for your survival, while you need to focus on something which may not appear in your life. Luffy, despite being under worse situations couldn't awaken that power, but, it appeared, after he experienced that power (kind of like nen from HxH, interesting, isn't it?). In nen's case, you have it, and you can be taught how to use it.
I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.

Haki is different from stuff like Reiatsu, Chakra and Spiral Energy because its something thats straight out of real life. Just that Oda gave extreme potential to it in One Piece. Its a 'power up' that relates to the lives of human beings.

Having it and can be taught how to use it, wasn't that what me and marvelB were saying?

Back in the Haki thread, I already agreed and said that I should stop trying to explain the concept anymore and should just refer people to the thread. But it just keeps coming back, outside of the Haki thread. If you want to continue, you should do it at the Haki thread instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya View Post
I like your theory though. A lot more believable than the Boa is Luffy's mom theory.
But its funny lol, especially after hearing from you that its more believable than the Luffy's mum theory.

Because if my theory is true that Dragon was a slave, it further increases the probability that Hancock is Luffy's mum. I can imagine, if both Dragon and Hancock were slaves, they would have met and may have had a child some time after being freed.
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Old 2008-11-06, 23:21   Link #63
marvelB
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Haki is different from stuff like Reiatsu, Chakra and Spiral Energy because its something thats straight out of real life. Just that Oda gave extreme potential to it in One Piece. Its a 'power up' that relates to the lives of human beings.

Having it and can be taught how to use it, wasn't that what me and marvelB were saying?



Yeah, I think people have to view Luffy's growth from a different perspective. Yes, he's been through many tough situations, but at Sabaody we've literally seen him at his worst yet. He got caught in what was ultimately a helpless situation. Suffering that kind of loss is obviously going to have an effect on his "ambition". Prior to Sabaody, Luffy hasn't really suffered true loss (he came close, but still hadn't truly experienced it). Those kinds of emotions can either make or break a person.... and it looks more than anything like the former held true for Luffy.



So as was already said, Haki (aka ambition/aspiration/drive, etc.) is an instinct, so it doesn't need to be "taught" in the sense where you need to "learn" how to awaken it. It's already inside you. The strength of Haki is equivalent to the strength of a person's character. Luffy and Hancock both have the "king's disposition", so their Haki is greater than others'. In Hancock's case, she was able to develop such powerful Haki because she was being oppressed as a slave. Her will, her determination to survive such cruel circumstances is what undoubtedly strengthened her Haki. Perhaps her will to live was even greater than those of the other captured slaves. So after Fisher Tiger came along and rescued her, she managed to control her great Haki, and afterwards became the empress of Amazon Lily. Eventually she even became notorious enough to be offered the Shichibukai position by the very government that oppressed her in the first place. Yes, there's also her Mero Mero powers to take into account, but I'd like to think that she's strong enough to hold her own in battle without the use of petrifying her opponents....



....Of course, I may as well be looking too deeply into this, but I really like the idea of Haki being more than a simple "energy source". We've had too much of that in many anime/manga as it is.....
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Old 2008-11-06, 23:46   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Haki is different from stuff like Reiatsu, Chakra and Spiral Energy because its something thats straight out of real life. Just that Oda gave extreme potential to it in One Piece. Its a 'power up' that relates to the lives of human beings.
Doesn't that come to what Small One mentioned, that anything related to Haki is speculation. Isn't it better to use words suggesting that, instead of trying to make the views look factual? And, I have to add an example: if you can force that power on an object to make it stronger (meaning you can transfer that power and integrate into another), then, you cannot say it is different from those kinds of powers (especially, in the case of nen, you can use it to achieve the exact same goal, strengthening objects).
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Old 2008-11-07, 00:05   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Doesn't that come to what Small One mentioned, that anything related to Haki is speculation. Isn't it better to use words suggesting that, instead of trying to make the views look factual? And, I have to add an example: if you can force that power on an object to make it stronger (meaning you can transfer that power and integrate into another), then, you cannot say it is different from those kinds of powers (especially, in the case of nen, you can use it to achieve the exact same goal, strengthening objects).
I can't argue with you, because you don't seem to have read up on Haki as we have been discussing. You keep bringing up points that we've addressed numerous times in the Haki thread and outside of it. Like I said, in a previous post, if you want to carry on the argument, post it over at the Haki thread, and read the thread before you post.

I'll do this argument here the last time:

Haki is an extremely common 'power up' that's used widely in Asian comics, namely Chinese manhwa and Japanese manga. Street fighter had Haki as a center of focus, Fist of the North Star had, even Super Robot Wars had a series of mechs powered by Haki.

The concept of Haki comes straight from real life, its also a word that can be applied in real life.

Its totally unlike Reiatsu and Chakra and such where you cannot actually use it in daily conversations to talk about or describe someone or something.

Oda chose such a common and totally un-unique 'power up/ energy source' because it works can it fits the theme and workings of One Piece. Its a tried and tested formula that works and if I were less humble in my theories, I'd simply state that want I have been saying are facts based on the manhwa and manga I've read.

Stuff like those named power-ups are only attempts to try and create uniqueness and to cut themselves away from realism. But Haki is different, its used to relate to us, real human beings while allowing itself to be a power-up. Haki is not a power that comes from nowhere, its the strength of the human will, the lifeforce and spirit of a living being. Its the human will and determination in effect.

I'll quote Blackbeard D. Kuma's definition:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Haki - The ambition, willpower, drive, and vigor that all individuals possess in different degrees. It is the impetus that allows one to persevere, and thus, overcome nearly anything depending on its magnitude/level.
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Old 2008-11-07, 00:57   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I can't argue with you, because you don't seem to have read up on Haki as we have been discussing. You keep bringing up points that we've addressed numerous times in the Haki thread and outside of it. Like I said, in a previous post, if you want to carry on the argument, post it over at the Haki thread, and read the thread before you post.
Again, that won't change the fact that those are all speculation. And, how can you say everything on the topic was discussed when you are not even aware of what nen is?

Quote:
Haki is an extremely common 'power up' that's used widely in Asian comics, namely Chinese manhwa and Japanese manga. Street fighter had Haki as a center of focus, Fist of the North Star had, even Super Robot Wars had a series of mechs powered by Haki.

The concept of Haki comes straight from real life, its also a word that can be applied in real life.

Its totally unlike Reiatsu and Chakra and such where you cannot actually use it in daily conversations to talk about or describe someone or something.
Let me also give my answer. The word being used in other places does not mean they will be the same. They may share some common points, but the implication may be totally different. In my understanding, if you can transfer a power to an object, then you talk about it and its uses.

Quote:
But Haki is different, its used to relate to us, real human beings while allowing itself to be a power-up.
I think, with the presence of abilities like creating dark holes, turning into animals, elementals, turning into materials, controlling minds, making people fly 3 days and 3 nights, it is a mute point to talk about the need and necessity of a realistic ability. It is not like Oda was in dire need of making it realistic, hence he can give any kind of transformation he desires to the ability.
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Old 2008-11-07, 08:59   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I think, with the presence of abilities like creating dark holes, turning into animals, elementals, turning into materials, controlling minds, making people fly 3 days and 3 nights, it is a mute point to talk about the need and necessity of a realistic ability. It is not like Oda was in dire need of making it realistic, hence he can give any kind of transformation he desires to the ability.
Im lost here, what it is the disagreement? And why not take this to the actual discussion thread? Is it not the reason why the thread was created in the first place?
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Old 2008-11-07, 10:23   Link #68
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I think we ought to postpone this Haki debate for now.... after all, the full chapter's out.



So anyway, it should be noted that it's been confirmed that two days passed since the Sabaody incident. Also, the mark on the sisters' backs is actually the World Nobles' symbol, "The Hoof of the Soaring Dragon", which is meant to signify that slaves are less than human. Hancock also notes that not all of the Sun pirates may have been former slaves (I have a feeling that Arlong may have been a slave, though...).


What else....? Oh yes, it's been confirmed that the sisters were fed their Devil Fruits while they were still slaves for the sake of entertainment (so yes, Mero Mero is a DF power), and Nyon was the one who brought them back to Amazon Lily after Tiger rescued them, since she was still out of the country herself at the time. So, the sisters used their DF powers to deceive the rest of the Kuja and came up with that phony Gorgon tale to hide the truth from them (as we've already speculated).



Heh, one particular scene I found rather amusing is when Hancock called Luffy to her chambers. He was excited because he was expecting food, yet became disappointed when he found a topless Hancock waiting for him instead. You know the reverse would apply if Sanji were in Luffy's shoes. Still, now that Nyon's appeared, I hope we get to learn about her past soon....
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Old 2008-11-07, 10:44   Link #69
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Heh, one particular scene I found rather amusing is when Hancock called Luffy to her chambers. He was excited because he was expecting food, yet became disappointed when he found a topless Hancock waiting for him instead. You know the reverse would apply if Sanji were in Luffy's shoes. Still, now that Nyon's appeared, I hope we get to learn about her past soon....

Lol…that’s was so funny..and Luff’s reaction priceless “What are you doing all naked and stuff”….Hancock just felt frustrated about it…saying “Your rudeness never ceases to amaze me” I also laughed when Luffy bowed his head hitting it with the floor…

Thinking more than been a relative of Luffy, I think Lufffy has another strong love Interest there with Boa (She said she like Luffy, and good looking girls sort of dig guys that treat her beauty indifferent…:P) remember that Luffy also have Lady Alvida!!!

Going to the chapter, Oda is very good as setting up the line between bad people and good people, everything he has been doing in the last chapters, is setting us up to actually dislike the nobles, unlike other series where you really find trouble in disliking the bad guys, Oda always find a way where you are just wishing for the day the Bad Guys get a good kick in the ass.
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Old 2008-11-07, 10:46   Link #70
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Anyone think will see Jinbei pretty soon?
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Old 2008-11-07, 10:46   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Im lost here, what it is the disagreement? And why not take this to the actual discussion thread? Is it not the reason why the thread was created in the first place?
I guess whenever haki is mentioned, the urge to discuss kicks in, before even having the chance to check the surroundings.
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Old 2008-11-07, 11:11   Link #72
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
This is strange... how could they keep them under control, if they had the power of Haki and even of the DF?

But even worse: Why waste a DF on a slave?
This is the extent of the Garbage the Terubitos are.. They waste DFís abilities just for personal amusement, and remember that not everyone in the OP universe likes the idea of eating a DF, judging the Terubitos, I guess they think DF users are like Circus attractions.


How did they control them? Well, the first thing is that they have the collar that explode, thatís a way to control them, the other ones is by using Sea stones. About the Haki, I highly doubt that they could use it properly by that time (Boa mentioned she hasnít mastered her type so far)
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Old 2008-11-07, 11:24   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Thinking more than been a relative of Luffy, I think Lufffy has another strong love Interest there with Boa (She said she like Luffy, and good looking girls sort of dig guys that treat her beauty indifferent…:P) remember that Luffy also have Lady Alvida!!!


Now see, this is one of the chief reasons why I support the "Hancock is Luffy's mother" theory in the first place. I just feel that a love interest would be too much of a burden for Luffy, especially when he doesn't show that much interest in women in the first place (at least, not that kind of interest). I'm not saying that romance is a bad thing, but I'd like to think Luffy can take all the time in the world to find his "Pirate Queen" after he makes his dream of becoming Pirate King come true....



Heh, funny thing, though.... I was recently reading part 6 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and there was actually a flashback that involved two people who had no idea that they were related falling in love with each other. Imagine if a similar situation were to arise in OP.....



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
This is strange... how could they keep them under control, if they had the power of Haki and even of the DF?

But even worse: Why waste a DF on a slave?


Rurik pretty much already said it, but it's simply because the World Nobles are assholes. Remember how Charlos was about to blow 500 million berry on Camie, just so he can place her in a piranha tank? It's a similar situation here. Plus, they already have the means to control slaves anyhow (exploding collars, seastone, etc.). Remember, very few people actually stood up to the Nobles, because that would mean making an enemy out of the entire government....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
About the Haki, I highly doubt that they could use it properly by that time (Boa mentioned she hasn’t mastered her type so far)

That was a mistranslation. She was talking about Luffy's Haki. She may not have had full mastery of her own Haki when she was a slave, but I think we can safely assume at this point that Hancock has full control over it now....

Last edited by marvelB; 2008-11-07 at 11:41.
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Old 2008-11-07, 11:34   Link #74
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from this chapter i must say luffy is either gay or he is just a big blockhead. Boa is entirely naked in front of him and he has no reaction at all!
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Old 2008-11-07, 11:44   Link #75
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Now see, this is one of the chief reasons why I support the "Hancock is Luffy's mother" theory in the first place. I just feel that a love interest would be too much of a burden for Luffy, especially when he doesn't show that much interest in women in the first place (at least, not that kind of interest). I'm not saying that romance is a bad thing, but I'd like to think Luffy can take all the time in the world to find his "Pirate Queen" after he makes his dream of becoming Pirate King come true....
lol...I hate you..bursting up my Echi image of Luffy with Boa...

Either way, When it coes to luffy, loves is only a one way thing, in this case women to Luffy....Luffy mind is not really into women...is not that he doesnt like them..just, he likes eating even more...


Quote:
That was a mistranslation. She was talking about Luffy's Haki. She may not have had full mastery of her own Haki when she was a slave, but I think we can safely assume at this point that Hancock has full control over it now....

Thanks..to say that to this age we still find mistranslations is regretable...
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Old 2008-11-07, 12:05   Link #76
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Also, we can't forget to mention that they live in a strip of the ocean that's filled to the brim with many vicious sea kings. The Kuja amazons have no choice but to grow strong in an environment like that. It's really no wonder why so many of them are able to use Haki like they do. Everywhere else, most people have the convenience of superior technology and DF abilities to survive, so they wouldn't be able to develop a will as strong as those of the Kuja amazons....
Yeah. I can dig that. I guess it makes sense. Good explanation.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I'd give it to you if you're along these lines, which I don't even know if they make good sense:

"Everyone has to breathe, but they can be taught to breathe."
"Eating is an instinct, but you can also be taught to eat."
"Everyone has a fear in them, but they can be taught to fear something."
----------

Anyway for actual discussion on this chapter itself, on stuff like Fisher and people who may be related to him.

Dragon for one, may be related to him as people have stated.

From what we've heard, Fisher climbed Red Line alone, bare handed and single handedly went against WG. It was a lone act he did himself, he wasn't doing it with anyone else.

I'd like to think that Dragon was also one of those people he rescued from slavery and only from there he joined the Sun Pirates and inspired to become a revolutionist. He has a tatoo on his face, though it doesn't seem like one of those slave tatoos.
That one, the third one, I found pretty interesting. It just caught my attention. Oh, and people breath whether they are taught or not. The muscle (diaphragm) must move, as long as the person doesn't will it to stop. Just like the heart. So one can't exactly be taught to breath, as such.

So I was sorely wrong about the symbol on her back being an ensignia of Dragon...

It was pretty disapointing the way it turned out, though. Seeing as they're friends of sorts, now Luffy won't get to fight Boa. It shows that the ShichiBukai won't be stormed through, but it's also sort of disheartening... I wanted to see her fight.

Tops for this chapter as usual. Can't wait for the next.
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Old 2008-11-07, 12:23   Link #77
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Reads chapter...
Well i was wrong about Nyon and the newspaper (though now we know its been 2 days since Luffy was sent flying)... however...
thinks back to chapter 517 thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
New random thoery about Boa's back...
the mark is the same one on Hachi's forehead...
We never got an explaination of what the mark was there for, but while up in the mangrove, Hachi took efforts to hide the mark under some bandages.
Luffy has seen it on Hachi before, and as such might be able to recognize it... Luffy would not know what it means, but Boa would know and as such know it's something that must remain hidden from the wrong kind of people; it may even be something her Kuja crew have heard about and would recognize.
Heh, if only i threw done that i thought it was possibly slavery, i would have called it 4 chapters ago
incidently, the counter to that theory that hachi's mark was the mark of the sunny pirates was also correct

now i wonder if my theory from the same thread will come to pass
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Of course, this now makes Arlong's hatred towards humans fully understandable, though I still wouldn't say that it justifies him terrorizing innocent people like he did in East Blue....
no it doesn't... Arlong's hate for humans stemmed from a superiority complex that fishmen were just plain better than humans; didn't seem there was anything about him being bitter over how humans had treated him or other fishmen despite the past he had with his crew...
Quote:
Still, it's kinda wierd when you also consider that Macro's crew, who also had the same mark, was cooperating with Duval in capturing slaves. I mean, I'd find that to be pretty low.....
not so much... i mean the chapter ppoints out that not all of the sunny pirates were once slaves and that the symbols were used to hide who was once slaves and who never were... if they joined the crew later on without their own history of slavery then it would make them much less sensitive to the subject.

Quote:
Precisely. I mean, it doesn't really make sense for a person who already has her own crew to begin with to be a permanent member of Luffy's crew (sure, Usopp had a "crew", but it was only a pretend one). Plus, it would just be plain awkward for the final crewmember to be someone who's probably stronger than Luffy...
Well i can't help but say that, the fact that Boa does have a very tragic past actually DOES make the likelyhood of her joining the crew higher than margaret

though i'm not saying anymore since the flashback was shown in 5 seconds and she doesn't display any of the other signs of a potential strawhat

Though i will say that Boa may end up training Luffy in the ways of Haki on their way to the archipelago

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Well, the chief reason people (like myself) had the idea that Hancock is Luffy's mother is pretty much because of one person: Kuma. See, at the end of Thriller Bark, he reveals that he knew about Luffy being Dragon's son, and that's not exactly common knowledge (remember how Garp's marines all freaked out when they found out about Dragon's identity?). Then at Sabaody, we see him have his little chat with Rayleigh, where he said he was "putting himself at risk" by making the Straw-Hats disappear. This is when people started to believe that Kuma was somehow connected to Dragon.


So basically, fans speculated that there was some particular reason why Kuma sent Luffy to Amazon Lily. Why would he send Luffy to a remote island in the Calm Belt where men are forbidden from entering? Sure, it's interesting to see that the inhabitants are knowledgable about Haki, but could there have been a deeper reason? Maybe he was told of an important person who lived on the island from Dragon? And that's pretty much how people came to the conclusion that Luffy would meet his mother at the island, and well.... Hancock seemed to be the most likely candidate. And lo and behold, a grand (and potentially controversial) theory was born!



....A theory that has yet to be debunked, I might add.
huh?
i thought the theory stemmed from the idea that the mark on Boa's back was the same as Dragon's, Luffy's father and that Luffy recognized the mark from his more infantile years when he would not have a good enough memory to know his mother's own face... which is something that has been debunked

Not to mention that Boa has no reaction to the name Monkey D. or Luffy

And why would Kuma send Luffy to a man hating island...
well when you take into account that it is also the island that specializes in the use of Haki and the Luffy has a legendary and rare form of Haki... yeah... you got all the reason you need right there

Last edited by Slayerx; 2008-11-07 at 12:42.
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Old 2008-11-07, 12:25   Link #78
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Dang, I refuse to believe that Oda had such a background to Hachi's Sun Tattoo so many chapters ago...

Also, very good point above about no reaction to the name Monkey D.
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Old 2008-11-07, 12:36   Link #79
Sordes Pilosus
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Slayerx, your a little off on the Tragic Past thing. What we have gotten from Hancock now is not the same flashback as the ones of those that becomme strawhats. It was more a illustration of her story, and it was what. 2 Pannels ? But that last image in the chapter surprised me. Hancock actualy seamed to blush. But i also noticed that even in this Chapter Margaret did get alot of attension.

First: She appears on first page and Luffy is checking "Her Statue" to make sure nothing is broken. On Page 4 She is sean in the background image as Luffy makes his bow. Then later we see her as she meets up with other warrior's. She got a full body pose again. The page after her face gets "blown up" in size and she mentions her flash back. Luffy also dident seam to "care as much" for the other two as he did for Margaret there. So that puts the theory of either of those two becomming a Strawhat rather dead. But the fact that Margaret got quite alot of showcase this chapter is definate. Oda doesent plan to "get rid of her yet".

Well basicly Boa's past does not help her much towards joining the crew. Margaret is stil a higher chance of that. But Hancock might be the "reason" that Margaret joins with Luffy.
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Old 2008-11-07, 12:58   Link #80
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Anyone else reminded about how Luffy climbed up that ice covered mountain to save Nami in Chopper's intro arc...?

Hancock clearly ranks Luffy on a level of "great stupidity" she's only seen/heard of once in her whole lifetime. It seems likely to me that Hancock will personally give Luffy a lift back. Maybe this will lead to some rumour about Luffy+Hancock (Sanji is so going to go ballistic!)

But what is Hancock going to do about her Shichibukai status and the Marine demands for her help fight against Whitebeard? Luffy still doesn't know about this - I think he'll be rather surprised Hancock is a Shichibukai. I suspect she wanted it to give her power/protection and basically ignored the WG/Marine requests until now - she wouldn't want to obey a bunch of WG men.

Perhaps she and the rest of the crew on the ship (which will certainly include Margaret) will get dragged into the war along with Luffy. I think she will quickly decide (at some point) that her Shichibukai status will no longer be of any value. Instead, to protect the island, it may be better to actively rebel against the WG instead...
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