2008-11-14, 17:15 | Link #21 | |
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There is no god. |
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2008-11-14, 20:02 | Link #23 | |
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2008-11-14, 21:41 | Link #24 |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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You may be somewhat right, but not in the sense that you intended. Suicides and depression are not always a case of people being "emo" and not wanting to help themselves out. If the brain chemistry is altered such that you can't feel good about anything, you're going to be depressed no matter what you do. No matter what you do. Those types of people need help. Not every suicide case is one where the person had a mental disorder, but by the same token, not every suicide is one where the person was a coward who was running from life.
Here's something else you won't like: there is a theory that just as the cells in your body are programmed to suicide (apoptose) once they're disconnected from a body system, it's suspected that we, as social creatures who are part of a "super organism" (society), are also programmed to accept death/suicide once we're disconnected from our group. You can feel disconnected from people even if you're living in a densely crowded city. It's an interesting thought to ponder. Happiness is not determined by money, nor is it determined by gigolos, elephants, or painting the hospital walls behind officials' backs. This girl's life has likely been filled with physical suffering and the constant anguish of knowing that tomorrow she might be told that she wasn't going to make it. None of us here can possibly know how that must feel.
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2008-11-15, 04:50 | Link #25 |
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I believe people do suicide just because it's so easy, take a shot, take pills, and you're gone. In a bad mental state some people might do this stuff like admitting to false charges in police stations, people are like that. You can't deny something like that. Sure the other people are no super men, but hell their brains work. I'm not saying they are cowards, pussy was a bad word of me, I'm saying that they are morons.
And yea money doesn't bring happiness, the things you buy with it do. Don't fall into Disney propaganda, when you know what to buy, like gigolos and elephants and actors pretending to be other patients and befriending the little girl (yes it sounds dirty), they could make the girl laugh from just little things, even if she would be in pain. I'm not talking about money here, I'm talking about how they could make this girl happy. You could buy her a friend with money, and you're telling me that money doesn't bring happiness in this case? People are sticking metal hearts inside their bodies to keep on living with their families for a couple of years, and this girl could go on for 30 years... Maybe longer wtih new treatments. Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-15 at 05:09. |
2008-11-15, 12:23 | Link #26 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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If you don't buy the whole idea that for some people depression is uncontrollable and not curable by simply buying things, then consider another condition: bipolar disorder. In this disorder a person goes between being depressed and being manic - they're extremely happy and energetic during their bouts of mania, but then without warning they'll be depressed (and then without warning they'll become manic again). I think we all experience times of sadness and times of extreme happiness, but it isn't quite as random or extreme as it is in bipolar disorder. While I'd be surprised if external stimuli and internal thoughts didn't potentially have some impact on the disorder, they alone do not cause or control it any more than, say, in someone who suffers epileptic seizures. It's a malfunction of the brain, of signal and biochemical pathways being activated when they shouldn't or not being activated when they should. All that aside, it would be standard procedure to examine the girl's mental health before giving her the choice of choosing death. People who are diagnosed with depression or other such disorders are not given the choice of euthanasia or going off of medications. Would buying her things and friends make her feel better? Maybe, but given her background I think that's too simple. If you've been on the verge of death for as long as you can remember I think your wants and desires would be quite different from someone who was told just yesterday that they have a very bad condition. Putting myself in her shoes, I think that unless someone could tell me "here's something we can do that, if it works, will cure you entirely for the rest of your life" then life wouldn't be much more than a painful nightmare that I'd want to get out of. (On the other hand, if you told me today that I had a high chance of dying unless I subjected myself to some painful treatments and/or operations, I'd take them - because I didn't grow up constantly in pain or wondering if I'd make it to see tomorrow, and as a result I know how enjoyable life can be.)
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2008-11-15, 17:48 | Link #27 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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To put it simply: imagine having the money to buy elephants, actors, whatever. Imagine the counterpart is getting kicked in the balls every minute. How happy do you think you'd be, writhing in pain in front of your friends? Quote:
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2008-11-15, 18:36 | Link #28 |
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Well uhh I dunno how this turned into an argument, since I really hate arguments, but well Ledgem describes naturally chronic emos, and those are indeed rare cases and they have nothing to do with this girl, except if she is one. Most suicides attempts are later commented to have been stupid and "times of momentary insanities", for example that Hollywood actor with the crooked nose is a perfext example. Also this girl is not similar, I dunno what she is. Maybe a chronic indeed? But it seems to me like everything's just going really shitty for her and because she's young...
And Anh Minh describes the natural mental barrier of suicide that I thought of talking about, since it is pretty easy to pass that barrier. It is the same as murdering somebody, your hand moves a little, or your finger, and snap, you killed somebody. You could grab a pair of scissors right now, and cut your neck. SNAP. If you were under the influence too, it would be MUCH easier to pass the barrier. Next you mention my use of moron like I did not intend it and then complain how I misuse it. Okay, ehh I ment a person, who uhm has malfunctioning brains. And deducting that your life is worth nothing? What? Next you link getting kicked into balls every minute with heart transplant, and hey it is not the same. I'm not an expert, but she doesn't seem like she's in horrible pain every second, sure the surgery might hurt and she might have a "tight chest" and maybe some occasional "pinching chest pain" (dunno how to describe really), but would there be anything worse? If she would be in horrible pain, she would be crying every second with her body twitching uncontrollably. That is what pain is, it hurts. And the last part, damn you googled the facts, I wasn't betting on that. |
2008-11-16, 01:02 | Link #29 | |
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2008-11-16, 03:28 | Link #30 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
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To have a heart transplant would mean trading a relatively normal "present" for an unpleasant future of frequent hospital visits and constant fear of germs, due to the immuno-suppressant she'd have to take. And in which she'd still die young, where long-term plans would still be futile. Where's the rational in that? Quote:
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2008-11-16, 06:16 | Link #31 | |||||||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Sigh...
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Did I say so? How did you come to that conclusion? I said she is something else. Quote:
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But the brick. You have a job in the society. Make money, spread money, breed. Continue what your fathers and mothers have done for centuries before you. That is your job. To continue the human race. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to. People have other dreams too, achieving things. Making a note of yourself in the history books. Lemme be honest, I do not fully understand why we even fight so much for dreams. Maybe evolution put such a system to our mind to fight against boredom, since it pretty much nothing else to throw at us. You know Asian MMORPGs tend to rely on grind a lot. People usually dream of the superior moves they are going to get. Dreams, goals and such... People often have them. Maybe this girl doesn't. Maybe you just have to plant a couple. Young people feel so bad so often, when compared to older folks who have absolutely nothing "to do" anymore. Maybe young people feel bad, because they feel they are inadequate. Quote:
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But the girl, she says the hospital has traumatized her, why not take her abroad, to another hospital, with yellow walls? -- Whew that took a while. |
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2008-11-16, 07:38 | Link #32 | |||||||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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2008-11-16, 18:58 | Link #33 |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Eggs in a Bottle I think your ideas and responses would be valid if someone like me or most other members on this forum began to contemplate suicide. We're young, healthy, have resources, and most likely have at least some level of intelligence - we have a lot going for us, I'd say. Your ideas of how to instill a renewed desire to live and continue on by once again finding joys in life might be valid in that case. If nothing else, I can appreciate your sense of optimism and vigor to continue onward, even if you don't know why we do continue on (which is something you more or less said).
But this situation is different. This is someone who can't function without the assistance of the hospital, and even with it she likely won't live for a terribly long time. Life is not pleasant for her, but in order to continue living that's a necessity. It seems that she's never known what life without the hospital and its uncomfortable procedures was like. Society does not and cannot commiserate with her. That must wear a person down. Having a past filled with that and realizing that it's what would make up the future, I'd think that things like material goods and perhaps even relationships to other people (who might be viewed as fools who don't realize how lucky they are to be healthy and practically be guaranteed a long life) would be considered trivial.
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2008-11-17, 10:42 | Link #34 | |||||||||||||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Okay I'll do it much shorter this time, to ensure that this won't continue. I don't really like to argue mainly because I'm not too good at it, I'm like Jimmy Onishi scratching my head when I'm writing these posts, and I never know for which side of the argument I'm writing for, and yes I've been doing this for a while now on different forums and this is a very clear habit of mine.
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Somebody could have picked the gay thing out so I added that portion. Quote:
Explained right above. Quote:
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Tell that to him. 82. Do you understand how long she would be at the hospital? Quote:
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Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-17 at 10:55. |
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2008-11-17, 11:21 | Link #35 |
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@Eggs in a Bottle
But if they were really as unhappy as they pretend, says my antagonist, why do they remain in life?... Not satisfied with life, afraid of death. This is the secret chain, say I, that holds us. We are terrified, not bribed to the continuance of our existence. It is only a false delicacy, he may insist, which a few refined spirits indulge, and which has spread these complaints among the whole race of mankind. . . . And what is this delicacy, I ask, which you blame? Is it any thing but a greater sensibility to all the pleasures and pains of life? and if the man of a delicate, refined temper, by being so much more alive than the rest of the world, is only so much more unhappy, what judgement must we form in general of human life? Let men remain at rest, says our adversary, and they will be easy. They are willing artificers of their own misery. . . . No! reply I: an anxious languor follows their repose; disappointment, vexation, trouble, their activity and ambition. Ask yourself, ask any of your acquaintance, whether they would live over again the last ten or twenty years of their life. No! but the next twenty, they say, will be better: And from the dregs of life, hope to receive What the first sprightly running could not give. Thus at last they find (such is the greatness of human misery, it reconciles even contradictions), that they complain at once of the shortness of life, and of its vanity and sorrow. Perhaps she is the wiser. There is nothing to say that how she views life is incorrect. Life is not something that can be translated into anything concrete. There are no facts and figures that will prove whether or not her views are flawed. Without doubt they must have thought this through for a very long time. You missed Anh_Minh's point on oblivion. It's not an argument for belief in the afterlife. But regardless, if there is an afterlife then she will gain a new existence, and if it is just oblivion then she has gained an eternity without either pain or pleasure. If it is the former, then maybe she will find happiness, and if it is the latter then even though she will never again experience mortal happiness, she will also never experience mortal pain. Unless you have proof backed by an omnipotent being who is able to perceive beyond the limits of human experience, I don't see how she is wrong and you are right. |
2008-11-17, 11:21 | Link #36 | ||||||||||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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Note that she's not a stranger to pleasure, or being in the hospital wouldn't make a difference. Quote:
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2008-11-17, 12:06 | Link #37 | ||||||||||||||||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Why not? It is something everybody should experience, at least in some way. Quote:
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Not everybody share my view of helping poor countries, either. Quote:
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You ignore my point and pick an added edit that is just side notification. Quote:
Way to be a douche. Quote:
Also, pain being described as a thing to evade even by killing yourself, why do masochists love fear and love pain? Why do athletes and body builders push their muscles beyond their limit, causing pain? |
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2008-11-17, 12:56 | Link #38 | ||
Gregory House
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HURR HURR, QUOTE WAR.
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If she thinks living like that is a torture, then it will irreversibly be a torture. Self-suggestion can go a long way, you know, no matter how many flowers and rainbows and rosy-colored rabbits you show her. The point is not about what the "better choice" is--it's about what she considers the better choice to be. Not you, not me, not anyone. Maybe you would be willing to go through a shitload of operations and constant medical surveillance in order to live a couple of years more. She doesn't want to, and it's not your place to tell her what's the best choice--because she simply knows herself better than you.
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2008-11-17, 14:21 | Link #39 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Pardon me for skipping the last few ping-pong posts. Since I've inadvertently started a debate within a news thread, I think it's appropriate for me to balance my original post with the other point-of-view that Eggs in a Bottle was perhaps trying to make.
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Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas (1951) Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-11-17 at 14:36. |
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