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Old 2008-11-15, 08:11   Link #81
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_z View Post
>>I'm still more willing to trust them than Russia.

why?
Because modern US foreign policy works like this for small countries (such as my own): We get into the economic good books, they leave us alone. Cynical, but effective.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:13   Link #82
Mumitroll
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Quote:
Because modern US foreign policy works like this for small countries (such as my own): We get into the economic good books, they leave us alone. Cynical, but effective.
you're just lucky that you dont have any real resources or strategic importance for the US. consider yourself lucky that you dont live in Iraq, Cuba, Nicaragua, Georgia, Serbia, or many other places.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:16   Link #83
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
lol Kamui above made it a point to show that it was the UK doing the *fire* part (incendiary bombs) of the bombing. the USAF did the regular bombing part.


that was Tokyo. and yes it was also pretty effective. the point though still remains that the US under Truman killed more innocent people at once than anyone else in history.


as the above poster said, why? the US has killed a lot more people than Russia since WWII.
1) No matter. Why push the blame? Fire bombing works best when regular bombing has "opened" the buildings so that the fire bombs can set off the inferno with the exposed beams. In any case, many British planes were also bankrolled by US loans.

Well:

2) Er, hello? Stalin? Hitler? Mao?

3) See 2). Seriously, do you think the Cultural Revolution has a price tag less than US killings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
you're just lucky that you dont have any real resources or strategic importance for the US. consider yourself lucky that you dont live in Iraq, Cuba, Nicaragua, Georgia, Serbia, or many other places.
Yes, I do consider myself lucky living in Singapore, which just happens to lie on a major global shipping route.

The countries who went "communist": It is tough luck, to a certain extent. Singapore could have become communist. If you haven't guessed by now, I stand on the right wing.

Serbia: Well, they managed to pull the alliance system into the First World War. Studying their modern history is fascinating.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2008-11-15 at 08:26.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:19   Link #84
mike_z
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Quote:
Because modern US foreign policy works like this for small countries
modern US foreign policy works like this for US.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:20   Link #85
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by mike_z View Post
modern US foreign policy works like this for US.
Then, I thank you for the confirmation.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:28   Link #86
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No matter. Why push the blame? Fire bombing works best when regular bombing has "opened" the buildings so that the fire bombs can set off the inferno with the exposed beams.
coincidentally in Dresden it was done the other way round: firebombing on 12th/14th, regular bombing on 14th/15th.



Quote:
2) Er, hello? Stalin? Hitler? Mao?
amazingly enough, Stalin did not kill anywhere near the number of people OUTSIDE of Russia/USSR as the US. Hitler did, but thats not my point. Mao - not sure, but the majority of his victims were inside China as well.


Quote:
3) See 2). Seriously, do you think the Cultural Revolution has a price tag less than US killings?
no, but that was not my statement.


Quote:
Serbia: Well, they managed to pull the alliance system into the First World War. Studying their modern history is fascinating.
you mean the Erzherzog assassination? that was merely the trigger. the actual *reasons* for WWI were completely different and way more complex.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:29   Link #87
mike_z
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The countries who went "communist".
wake up. there is democracy in Russia last 17 years.

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1) No matter. Why push the blame? Fire bombing works best when regular bombing has "opened" the buildings so that the fire bombs can set off the inferno with the exposed beams.
year. These russian bastards in 1945 unduly used force, infracted rights of Germany, and got duly elected chancellor to kill himself.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:30   Link #88
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by mike_z View Post
wake up. there is democracy in Russia last 17 years.
That is democracy? Sure, if that is a liberal democracy, then Stalin's my uncle.

@Mumitroll: Oh, didn't realise your post was on "foreigners". Hmmm... And what's Erzherzog? (Oh, it's German for Archduke. Sorry for my ignorance.) While I do know that the assassination of FF was merely a trigger, the Balkans, particularly Serbia, did contribute some steam to it besides the killing.

Stalin's major overseas killing "contribution" was in the Spanish Civil War. Also, for Stalin, do you count Eastern Europe within the USSR? Cause if you don't, the Red Army did a fair bit of killing there themselves. And why distinguish between "within" borders and "outside" borders?
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2008-11-15 at 08:46.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:41   Link #89
mike_z
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And why distinguish between "within" borders and "outside" borders?
Because we speak about Russia and USA, not about Stalin.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:42   Link #90
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
amazingly enough, Stalin did not kill anywhere near the number of people OUTSIDE of Russia/USSR as the US. Hitler did, but thats not my point. Mao - not sure, but the majority of his victims were inside China as well.
...
you mean the Erzherzog assassination? that was merely the trigger. the actual *reasons* for WWI were completely different and way more complex.
1 Why make a difference betweem the people inside and outside their country .
2 It's true. The assasination was just the trigger. The tension betweem the country and the game of alliance did the rest.

By the way, could you enumerate the ressources said to be responsible of for the implication of the US in Bosnia ( if, of course, it the reason was the ressource)?
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:45   Link #91
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by mike_z View Post
Because we speak about Russia and USA, not about Stalin.
Well, during much of his reign, Stalin WAS Russia.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:49   Link #92
Thingle
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, during much of his reign, Stalin WAS Russia.
Not quite. Stalin is Georgian and he led the entire USSR, not just Russia.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:50   Link #93
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Not quite. Stalin is Georgian and he led the entire USSR, not just Russia.
Ah yes. That qualification. The Gerogian who championed Russian chauvinism. Gotta love that one.
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Old 2008-11-15, 08:51   Link #94
mike_z
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A lot of russians dislile Stalin. Thats why lets discuss only outside politic
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Old 2008-11-15, 10:16   Link #95
Mumitroll
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
That is democracy? Sure, if that is a liberal democracy, then Stalin's my uncle.
sorry, I'm afraid I have a better idea of that than you do. if we discuss the government - Putin, Medvedev, etc - there is no doubt that it is democratically elected and supported by the vast majority of the population (80%+), for reasons *not* dependent on the media. the point is simply that they (mostly) do stuff that people want. the USSR/Russia took extreme economic damage under Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Putin reverted a good deal of that, and under him the country has displayed a stable economic growth and increasing well-being for the population. the opposition - Communists, liberals like Yabloko, rightwing nationalists like LDPR - simply sucks ass in comparison.


Quote:
While I do know that the assassination of FF was merely a trigger, the Balkans, particularly Serbia, did contribute some steam to it besides the killing.
all that was merely a trigger. the fundamental reason for WWI was the interest conflict between various large European states - Germany+Austria/Hungary vs. the Entente, which had been developing for years prior to 1914.


Quote:
Stalin's major overseas killing "contribution" was in the Spanish Civil War.
incidentally, that was in support of the (elected) Republican government against the coup d'etat of Nazi tyrant Franco - which failed and let to a Fascist regime in Spain. also, what kind of "killing contribution" do you mean? the actions of the NKVD there? from what i know, that was maybe a couple of thousand people, mostly supporters of the Franco Nazis. that's about 100 times less than what Franco's regime did.



Quote:
Also, for Stalin, do you count Eastern Europe within the USSR? Cause if you don't, the Red Army did a fair bit of killing there themselves.
no, Eastern Europe is of course not within the USSR. but no, the Red Army barely was active there at all after WWII - which was against Nazi Germany - except striking down the uprisings in Hungary and the Czech Republic (2,500 and 72 killed, respectively). I think it's easy to see that's nowhere even close to the millions of US victims in Vietnam, right?



Quote:
And why distinguish between "within" borders and "outside" borders?
because the talk was about aggression, and how people perceive a certain country in the world. while both Stalin USSR and Mao China were very cruel regimes within their borders, they never came even close to the destruction and deaths caused in other countries by the US or Nazi Germany.


Quote:
By the way, could you enumerate the ressources said to be responsible of for the implication of the US in Bosnia ( if, of course, it the reason was the ressource)?
you mean the reasons for the bombing of Serbia?


Quote:
Well, during much of his reign, Stalin WAS Russia.
where'd you get that idea? Stalin was a Georgian, his full name is Iosif Dzhugashvili. he was a cruel paranoid dictator who was neither elected nor wanted by the Russian people (except those brainwashed into it), but succeeded Lenin's lead after the Bolshevik coup in 1917 - and after assassinating or otherwise removing most other political competitors. there was massive public resistance against his rule in the 1930s, which he countered with a massive wave of repressions against the Russian population - totalling 5+ million dead and killing/imprisoning most of the best scientists, military lead and other elite.



Quote:
Ah yes. That qualification. The Gerogian who championed Russian chauvinism. Gotta love that one.
you just know very little on this.

Last edited by Mumitroll; 2008-11-15 at 10:28.
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Old 2008-11-15, 10:37   Link #96
mike_z
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sorry for offtop
Mumitroll
where you was born?

und uebrigens sind sie coole Guys, sie wissen, dass Amerika fast immer nicht Recht hat, viele werden Oel und Geld wegen von Amerika getoetet, aber immerhin trauen sie mehr an die USA

Last edited by mike_z; 2008-11-15 at 13:39.
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Old 2008-11-15, 10:40   Link #97
Mumitroll
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i'm originally from St. Petersburg, but moved to Germany at the age of 13 and have graduated school and university here. i'm bilingual in Russian/German, and follow events both in Russia and in Germany quite closely.
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Old 2008-11-15, 15:56   Link #98
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
that was Tokyo. and yes it was also pretty effective. the point though still remains that the US under Truman killed more innocent people at once than anyone else in history.
I'm sure that invading the island where little kids were being trained to fight with sharp sticks would have caused less deaths. And I am sure that Japan would have wanted to become split in half as the USSR encroached on their little island. While the bombing was not necessarily that humane, it ended the war quickly. The one thing I'll say about the dropping of the bombs, was the first may have been justifiable, but the second wasn't. They did not need to bomb Japan a second time.

And at least the U.S. did a nice job rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany, I cannot say the same for Russia and East Germany...

Oh and since you seem to be comparing death tolls for the countries in modern history, lets not forget the Soviet-Afghan war...

Quote:
Over 1 million Afghans were killed.[56] 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, one out of two refugees in the world was an Afghan.

Along with fatalities were 1.2 million Afghans disabled (mujahideen, government soldiers and noncombatants) and 3 million maimed or wounded (primarily noncombatants).
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Old 2008-11-15, 18:15   Link #99
mike_z
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lets not forget the US-Afghan war...
lets not forget the US-vietnam war...
lets not forget the US-iraq war...
Quote:
While the bombing was not necessarily that humane, it ended the war quickly
What do you know about WW2? You are blind. War ended in may 1945. Nuclear attacks were in august!!!! It was a force demonstration.

Quote:
I am sure that Japan would have wanted to become split in half as the USSR encroached on their little island
.

when the USSR encroached on their little island???

Last edited by mike_z; 2008-11-15 at 18:29.
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Old 2008-11-15, 19:05   Link #100
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by mike_z View Post
lets not forget the US-Afghan war...
lets not forget the US-vietnam war...
lets not forget the US-iraq war...


What do you know about WW2? You are blind. War ended in may 1945. Nuclear attacks were in august!!!! It was a force demonstration.

.

when the USSR encroached on their little island???
They had not surrendered, and were not going to anytime soon (not until after the first bomb, hence why I said the second bomb was outrageous). It was not simply a force demonstration.

The USSR was ready to invade Japan in case you did not know by the way, it was probably the biggest reason that the US even dropped the bomb. They wanted to keep them out, and they also wanted to strike fear in Stalin. Japan could have easily become like Germany, but Asia's version.
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