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Old 2008-11-14, 17:15   Link #21
mike_z
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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I beileve that life is God's gift to man. We are here as transit passengers to either heaven or hell. That's 'bout it, really, as far as I'm concerned.
Children believe in fairy tales, becase they can't think logical. Adults believe in religion because they repudiate reality.

There is no god.
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Old 2008-11-14, 19:57   Link #22
yezhanquan
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 29
I believe in a higher existence. Also, I don't buy 100% of what the three holy books say about God. He may exist, but I'm sure he's a lot more than the books say about him.
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Old 2008-11-14, 20:02   Link #23
Luminisk
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
You see. The problem here is not tying euthanasia with suicide. The issue is totally unrelated. Maybe, you didn't read the original article and here is the link to it:

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...858427,00.html

Apparently, a 13 year old British girl is going to die unless she get a heart transplant. A heart transplant generally means that they will be opening up her chest, yanking out her heart, and replacing it with someone else's heart. If the blood type and organ is compatible, it will be considered a successful surgery and she will live. Otherwise, it may cause side-effects and she might die even after doing the heart transplant. And so, not wanting to suffer all these pain and surgery, she chose not to do so and refused the heart transplant. It is not the same as suicide under these circumstances.
The story neglected to mention that the girl has been suffering from cancer, and her heart was weakened by the very medicine that was meant to save her life. Screening gives transplant a high success rate, but even if it is sucessful they are still constrained to taking medicines for the rest of their life. This is not euthanasia or suicide the girl has simply decided that she has had enough, resided to her fate and wants to go on her own accord; and her parents agrees.
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Old 2008-11-14, 21:41   Link #24
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
Suicides are Darwin's examples. Their brains fail.
You may be somewhat right, but not in the sense that you intended. Suicides and depression are not always a case of people being "emo" and not wanting to help themselves out. If the brain chemistry is altered such that you can't feel good about anything, you're going to be depressed no matter what you do. No matter what you do. Those types of people need help. Not every suicide case is one where the person had a mental disorder, but by the same token, not every suicide is one where the person was a coward who was running from life.

Here's something else you won't like: there is a theory that just as the cells in your body are programmed to suicide (apoptose) once they're disconnected from a body system, it's suspected that we, as social creatures who are part of a "super organism" (society), are also programmed to accept death/suicide once we're disconnected from our group. You can feel disconnected from people even if you're living in a densely crowded city. It's an interesting thought to ponder.

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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
For christ's sake little girl, hire a gigolo, rent an elephant, paint the hospital walls in yellow without telling the officials... You have money. People who live in the woods trying to find something to eat to survive don't have money.
Happiness is not determined by money, nor is it determined by gigolos, elephants, or painting the hospital walls behind officials' backs. This girl's life has likely been filled with physical suffering and the constant anguish of knowing that tomorrow she might be told that she wasn't going to make it. None of us here can possibly know how that must feel.
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Old 2008-11-15, 04:50   Link #25
Eggs in a Bottle
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I believe people do suicide just because it's so easy, take a shot, take pills, and you're gone. In a bad mental state some people might do this stuff like admitting to false charges in police stations, people are like that. You can't deny something like that. Sure the other people are no super men, but hell their brains work. I'm not saying they are cowards, pussy was a bad word of me, I'm saying that they are morons.

And yea money doesn't bring happiness, the things you buy with it do. Don't fall into Disney propaganda, when you know what to buy, like gigolos and elephants and actors pretending to be other patients and befriending the little girl (yes it sounds dirty), they could make the girl laugh from just little things, even if she would be in pain. I'm not talking about money here, I'm talking about how they could make this girl happy. You could buy her a friend with money, and you're telling me that money doesn't bring happiness in this case?

People are sticking metal hearts inside their bodies to keep on living with their families for a couple of years, and this girl could go on for 30 years... Maybe longer wtih new treatments.

Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-15 at 05:09.
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Old 2008-11-15, 12:23   Link #26
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
People are sticking metal hearts inside their bodies to keep on living with their families for a couple of years, and this girl could go on for 30 years... Maybe longer wtih new treatments.
The people sticking "metal hearts inside their bodies" want to live. It seems to me that you think that the desire to commit suicide or stop living is a simple matter of choice or "giving up." In some cases it is, but for the mentally ill it's more complicated. For some people, there is simply nothing that they could buy, do, or think that would make them happy or feel motivated, excited, or inspired. It isn't because they're dull people, it's because they are clinically depressed. Clinical depression isn't a matter of saying "I've been sad for the past week" - that's the sort of "I'm depressed" that people toss around lightly. Clinical depression is due to chemical imbalances in the brain.

If you don't buy the whole idea that for some people depression is uncontrollable and not curable by simply buying things, then consider another condition: bipolar disorder. In this disorder a person goes between being depressed and being manic - they're extremely happy and energetic during their bouts of mania, but then without warning they'll be depressed (and then without warning they'll become manic again). I think we all experience times of sadness and times of extreme happiness, but it isn't quite as random or extreme as it is in bipolar disorder. While I'd be surprised if external stimuli and internal thoughts didn't potentially have some impact on the disorder, they alone do not cause or control it any more than, say, in someone who suffers epileptic seizures. It's a malfunction of the brain, of signal and biochemical pathways being activated when they shouldn't or not being activated when they should.

All that aside, it would be standard procedure to examine the girl's mental health before giving her the choice of choosing death. People who are diagnosed with depression or other such disorders are not given the choice of euthanasia or going off of medications. Would buying her things and friends make her feel better? Maybe, but given her background I think that's too simple. If you've been on the verge of death for as long as you can remember I think your wants and desires would be quite different from someone who was told just yesterday that they have a very bad condition. Putting myself in her shoes, I think that unless someone could tell me "here's something we can do that, if it works, will cure you entirely for the rest of your life" then life wouldn't be much more than a painful nightmare that I'd want to get out of. (On the other hand, if you told me today that I had a high chance of dying unless I subjected myself to some painful treatments and/or operations, I'd take them - because I didn't grow up constantly in pain or wondering if I'd make it to see tomorrow, and as a result I know how enjoyable life can be.)
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Old 2008-11-15, 17:48   Link #27
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
I believe people do suicide just because it's so easy, take a shot, take pills, and you're gone. In a bad mental state some people might do this stuff like admitting to false charges in police stations, people are like that. You can't deny something like that. Sure the other people are no super men, but hell their brains work. I'm not saying they are cowards, pussy was a bad word of me, I'm saying that they are morons.
I don't believe overcoming your own survival instinct is that easy, but even if it was - what of it? The hard choice isn't the same as the right one. Cowards let fear overcome their intellect. Morons don't have much of an intellect at all. Why should people who rationally weight their options and deduce that life isn't going to bring them any benefit compared to oblivion fall into either category?

Quote:
And yea money doesn't bring happiness, the things you buy with it do. Don't fall into Disney propaganda, when you know what to buy, like gigolos and elephants and actors pretending to be other patients and befriending the little girl (yes it sounds dirty), they could make the girl laugh from just little things, even if she would be in pain. I'm not talking about money here, I'm talking about how they could make this girl happy. You could buy her a friend with money, and you're telling me that money doesn't bring happiness in this case?
Disney propaganda? Try Damocles' story. Add all the constraints and suffering a heart transplant would put her through. If you still think she'd be happy that's your prerogative, but nobody has to agree with you. Least of all her.

To put it simply: imagine having the money to buy elephants, actors, whatever. Imagine the counterpart is getting kicked in the balls every minute. How happy do you think you'd be, writhing in pain in front of your friends?

Quote:
People are sticking metal hearts inside their bodies to keep on living with their families for a couple of years, and this girl could go on for 30 years... Maybe longer wtih new treatments.
Quick internet search. Thirty years would be a record. If she had that transplant now, she'd have a 40% chance of not even making it to 23. Or a 33% of not making it to 18.
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Old 2008-11-15, 18:36   Link #28
Eggs in a Bottle
Ehh I love suits?
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Well uhh I dunno how this turned into an argument, since I really hate arguments, but well Ledgem describes naturally chronic emos, and those are indeed rare cases and they have nothing to do with this girl, except if she is one. Most suicides attempts are later commented to have been stupid and "times of momentary insanities", for example that Hollywood actor with the crooked nose is a perfext example. Also this girl is not similar, I dunno what she is. Maybe a chronic indeed? But it seems to me like everything's just going really shitty for her and because she's young...

And Anh Minh describes the natural mental barrier of suicide that I thought of talking about, since it is pretty easy to pass that barrier. It is the same as murdering somebody, your hand moves a little, or your finger, and snap, you killed somebody. You could grab a pair of scissors right now, and cut your neck. SNAP. If you were under the influence too, it would be MUCH easier to pass the barrier.

Next you mention my use of moron like I did not intend it and then complain how I misuse it. Okay, ehh I ment a person, who uhm has malfunctioning brains. And deducting that your life is worth nothing? What?

Next you link getting kicked into balls every minute with heart transplant, and hey it is not the same. I'm not an expert, but she doesn't seem like she's in horrible pain every second, sure the surgery might hurt and she might have a "tight chest" and maybe some occasional "pinching chest pain" (dunno how to describe really), but would there be anything worse? If she would be in horrible pain, she would be crying every second with her body twitching uncontrollably. That is what pain is, it hurts.

And the last part, damn you googled the facts, I wasn't betting on that.
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Old 2008-11-16, 01:02   Link #29
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't believe overcoming your own survival instinct is that easy, but even if it was - what of it? The hard choice isn't the same as the right one. Cowards let fear overcome their intellect. Morons don't have much of an intellect at all. Why should people who rationally weight their options and deduce that life isn't going to bring them any benefit compared to oblivion fall into either category?
People who invest billions of dollars into the stocks and watch the market nose-dive don't have much intellect to begin with. I believe the current high suicide rates are tied with the collapsing global financial markets. People invested money into stocks with high hopes of reaping profits to realize that they are going bankrupt soon enough.
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Old 2008-11-16, 03:28   Link #30
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
Well uhh I dunno how this turned into an argument, since I really hate arguments, but well Ledgem describes naturally chronic emos, and those are indeed rare cases and they have nothing to do with this girl, except if she is one. Most suicides attempts are later commented to have been stupid and "times of momentary insanities", for example that Hollywood actor with the crooked nose is a perfext example. Also this girl is not similar, I dunno what she is. Maybe a chronic indeed? But it seems to me like everything's just going really shitty for her and because she's young...
And has precious little to look forward to. Especially if she gets a heart transplant. When it comes to lives, longer doesn't mean better.

Quote:
And Anh Minh describes the natural mental barrier of suicide that I thought of talking about, since it is pretty easy to pass that barrier. It is the same as murdering somebody, your hand moves a little, or your finger, and snap, you killed somebody. You could grab a pair of scissors right now, and cut your neck. SNAP.
No, I couldn't. Survival instinct would kick in and stay my hand.

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If you were under the influence too, it would be MUCH easier to pass the barrier.
Yeah, so? Are you claiming that girl is a junkie?

Quote:
Next you mention my use of moron like I did not intend it and then complain how I misuse it. Okay, ehh I ment a person, who uhm has malfunctioning brains.
And why do you think being suicidal means having a malfunctioning brain?

Quote:
And deducting that your life is worth nothing? What?
Quite simply, we human beings project ourselves in the future. There are things we fear, things we want. When our future is filled with nothing but the former with none of the latter, what's the point of going on?

Quote:
Next you link getting kicked into balls every minute with heart transplant, and hey it is not the same. I'm not an expert, but she doesn't seem like she's in horrible pain every second, sure the surgery might hurt and she might have a "tight chest" and maybe some occasional "pinching chest pain" (dunno how to describe really), but would there be anything worse? If she would be in horrible pain, she would be crying every second with her body twitching uncontrollably. That is what pain is, it hurts.
It was an exaggerated example showing money isn't enough to be happy. In her case, for example, it can't buy good health. It can't buy a future. She probably can't have children, and even getting them at all would be irresponsible, due to the high likelihood of orphaning them at a young age. She can't have a long term relationship because, to her, there is no long term.

To have a heart transplant would mean trading a relatively normal "present" for an unpleasant future of frequent hospital visits and constant fear of germs, due to the immuno-suppressant she'd have to take. And in which she'd still die young, where long-term plans would still be futile. Where's the rational in that?

Quote:
And the last part, damn you googled the facts, I wasn't betting on that.
Maybe you should have done the same before implying a heart transplant would automatically result in her having a long, full life.
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Old 2008-11-16, 06:16   Link #31
Eggs in a Bottle
Ehh I love suits?
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Sigh...

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And has precious little to look forward to. Especially if she gets a heart transplant. When it comes to lives, longer doesn't mean better.
When it comes to life, you want to live. There is nothing after death. The universe could as well as die with you. Ideals and babies are what matter. Either you would be protecting your ideals, your friends, your families, your societies in a situation where death is almost assured. If you had none of these, then... It would be all dark indeed, god could offer you the choice of the humankind surviving or you yourself surviving with a woman. If you had no ties to the other portion of humankind since you've been living in the woods for your whole life and don't even know what a human being is and have no sense of "morale" either, you would choose to continue your own life, in paradise, with a woman. Evolution put this tricky answers to our mind to respond to different questions regarding the sacrifice for greater good and the pleasure of your own.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, I couldn't. Survival instinct would kick in and stay my hand.
That's because you are not a moron.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yeah, so? Are you claiming that girl is a junkie?
Did I say so? How did you come to that conclusion? I said she is something else.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And why do you think being suicidal means having a malfunctioning brain?
Do you think retards are human beings as evolution wanted them? Do you think nothing went wrong during the path? You just said yourself that it's hard to pass the barrier. Because you are not malfunctioning.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Quite simply, we human beings project ourselves in the future. There are things we fear, things we want. When our future is filled with nothing but the former with none of the latter, what's the point of going on?
Do you know what you are? A brick. A brick in the wall of society. You know how they claim that we would die out if we were all gays? That's not possible since again, gays are such a minor portion, and we even are overpopulating the Earth so it would be just better to stop population growth completely.

But the brick. You have a job in the society. Make money, spread money, breed. Continue what your fathers and mothers have done for centuries before you. That is your job. To continue the human race. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to. People have other dreams too, achieving things. Making a note of yourself in the history books. Lemme be honest, I do not fully understand why we even fight so much for dreams. Maybe evolution put such a system to our mind to fight against boredom, since it pretty much nothing else to throw at us. You know Asian MMORPGs tend to rely on grind a lot. People usually dream of the superior moves they are going to get. Dreams, goals and such... People often have them. Maybe this girl doesn't. Maybe you just have to plant a couple. Young people feel so bad so often, when compared to older folks who have absolutely nothing "to do" anymore. Maybe young people feel bad, because they feel they are inadequate.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It was an exaggerated example showing money isn't enough to be happy. In her case, for example, it can't buy good health. It can't buy a future. She probably can't have children, and even getting them at all would be irresponsible, due to the high likelihood of orphaning them at a young age. She can't have a long term relationship because, to her, there is no long term.
In no cases does money bring anything other than momentary happiness, but if you buy that every single day of your life, you get eternal momentary happiness. Video games, media, before mentioned crazy things like sex, booze and parties, helping poor countries, fighting for dreams with money...

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
To have a heart transplant would mean trading a relatively normal "present" for an unpleasant future of frequent hospital visits and constant fear of germs, due to the immuno-suppressant she'd have to take. And in which she'd still die young, where long-term plans would still be futile. Where's the rational in that?
Would it be that pleasant? You have nothing, you are at your home, you know you are gonna hit the floor any second now, you watch TV, you cry... Maybe have a picnic. And have rain ruin it. And your parents cry constantly.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe you should have done the same before implying a heart transplant would automatically result in her having a long, full life.
Again, full long life is a matter of perception.

But the girl, she says the hospital has traumatized her, why not take her abroad, to another hospital, with yellow walls?

--

Whew that took a while.
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Old 2008-11-16, 07:38   Link #32
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
Sigh...



When it comes to life, you want to live. There is nothing after death. The universe could as well as die with you.
Not that widespread a belief. Note, to me, oblivion is actually more appealing than an afterlife. Anyway, you haven't explained why whatever lies after death should be considered worse than a hopeless, unpleasant life.

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Ideals and babies are what matter. Either you would be protecting your ideals, your friends, your families, your societies in a situation where death is almost assured.
And how would her ideals or non-existent babies be served by her getting a heart transplant?

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If you had none of these, then... It would be all dark indeed, god could offer you the choice of the humankind surviving or you yourself surviving with a woman. If you had no ties to the other portion of humankind since you've been living in the woods for your whole life and don't even know what a human being is and have no sense of "morale" either, you would choose to continue your own life, in paradise, with a woman. Evolution put this tricky answers to our mind to respond to different questions regarding the sacrifice for greater good and the pleasure of your own.
I feel you've gone off on a tangent. I can't claim to understand what you're talking about, though.

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That's because you are not a moron.
I also don't have any particular reason to want to die. That's what it comes down to. Reasons to live. Reasons to die. Reasons to fight. She, apparently, lacks reasons to sacrifice her relative freedom from hospitals for a few years of additional life. That doesn't make her mentally defective.

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Did I say so? How did you come to that conclusion? I said she is something else.
You're the one who talked about "influence", as if it was relevant.


Quote:
Do you think retards are human beings as evolution wanted them? Do you think nothing went wrong during the path? You just said yourself that it's hard to pass the barrier. Because you are not malfunctioning.
I also don't have any reason to make an effort of will to end myself. I can easily come up with situations where that'd change. To be suicidal isn't a measure of stupidity, but of unhappiness and hopelessness, which can easily come from outside influence - or factors unrelated to one's intelligence.

Quote:
Do you know what you are? A brick. A brick in the wall of society. You know how they claim that we would die out if we were all gays? That's not possible since again, gays are such a minor portion, and we even are overpopulating the Earth so it would be just better to stop population growth completely.
And that's relevant, how?

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But the brick. You have a job in the society. Make money, spread money, breed.
That's your view of your duty to society. Not mine. Unlikely to be hers, too. And even if it was - as I explained, she's not likely to breed. Or make much money, due to child labor laws, low education and low tolerance to stress.

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Continue what your fathers and mothers have done for centuries before you. That is your job. To continue the human race. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to.
Then why the hell did you even mention it?

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People have other dreams too, achieving things. Making a note of yourself in the history books.
Having a healthy body... Unachievable dreams aren't much justification for living.

Quote:
Lemme be honest, I do not fully understand why we even fight so much for dreams. Maybe evolution put such a system to our mind to fight against boredom, since it pretty much nothing else to throw at us. You know Asian MMORPGs tend to rely on grind a lot. People usually dream of the superior moves they are going to get. Dreams, goals and such... People often have them. Maybe this girl doesn't. Maybe you just have to plant a couple. Young people feel so bad so often, when compared to older folks who have absolutely nothing "to do" anymore. Maybe young people feel bad, because they feel they are inadequate.
Maybe she feels bad because she only has a few years to live and her time scale is different from everyone around her. Most of her agemates take it for granted they'll still be around in ten, in fifty years, and live accordingly. She can't do that.


Quote:
In no cases does money bring anything other than momentary happiness, but if you buy that every single day of your life, you get eternal momentary happiness. Video games, media, before mentioned crazy things like sex, booze and parties, helping poor countries, fighting for dreams with money...
You either run out of money or grow bored with it all in pretty short order.


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Would it be that pleasant? You have nothing, you are at your home, you know you are gonna hit the floor any second now, you watch TV, you cry... Maybe have a picnic. And have rain ruin it. And your parents cry constantly.
Better than being in the hospital.

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Again, full long life is a matter of perception.
And in her perception, a heart transplant wouldn't give her the kind of life worth sacrificing for.

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But the girl, she says the hospital has traumatized her, why not take her abroad, to another hospital, with yellow walls?
What the hell makes you think the color of the walls has anything to do with it? What makes you think there's a single hospital on Earth she wouldn't find traumatic? The constant poking and prodding, the pervading sense of death, and smell of disinfectant, the horrible food... And the futility of it all.
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Old 2008-11-16, 18:58   Link #33
Ledgem
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Eggs in a Bottle I think your ideas and responses would be valid if someone like me or most other members on this forum began to contemplate suicide. We're young, healthy, have resources, and most likely have at least some level of intelligence - we have a lot going for us, I'd say. Your ideas of how to instill a renewed desire to live and continue on by once again finding joys in life might be valid in that case. If nothing else, I can appreciate your sense of optimism and vigor to continue onward, even if you don't know why we do continue on (which is something you more or less said).

But this situation is different. This is someone who can't function without the assistance of the hospital, and even with it she likely won't live for a terribly long time. Life is not pleasant for her, but in order to continue living that's a necessity. It seems that she's never known what life without the hospital and its uncomfortable procedures was like. Society does not and cannot commiserate with her. That must wear a person down. Having a past filled with that and realizing that it's what would make up the future, I'd think that things like material goods and perhaps even relationships to other people (who might be viewed as fools who don't realize how lucky they are to be healthy and practically be guaranteed a long life) would be considered trivial.
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Old 2008-11-17, 10:42   Link #34
Eggs in a Bottle
Ehh I love suits?
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Okay I'll do it much shorter this time, to ensure that this won't continue. I don't really like to argue mainly because I'm not too good at it, I'm like Jimmy Onishi scratching my head when I'm writing these posts, and I never know for which side of the argument I'm writing for, and yes I've been doing this for a while now on different forums and this is a very clear habit of mine.
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not that widespread a belief. Note, to me, oblivion is actually more appealing than an afterlife. Anyway, you haven't explained why whatever lies after death should be considered worse than a hopeless, unpleasant life.
Okay you believe in afterlife, you're the people who I call zealots, the perfect war machines, the more you believe in afterlife, the less you fear death. You seem to believe a bit, since oblivion is worse than anything. It is stupid for people to fear torture more than death. This is, when they are young. Old people having terrible diseases and then asking for it, I can understand.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And how would her ideals or non-existent babies be served by her getting a heart transplant?
That's because she's too young, her mind has been ehh *screwed* over by the life in the hospital, ever seen the anime Monster? Stuff like that, you know. She seems to believe that she could never ever feel happy again.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I feel you've gone off on a tangent. I can't claim to understand what you're talking about, though.
Okay I don't get it either.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I also don't have any particular reason to want to die. That's what it comes down to. Reasons to live. Reasons to die. Reasons to fight. She, apparently, lacks reasons to sacrifice her relative freedom from hospitals for a few years of additional life. That doesn't make her mentally defective.
Actually I do not have any other "reason of living" (like you would call it) than finding a girl and making babies. Lots of babies. I do not know why, but it is there. The girl is 13, most likely still in puberty from what I'm seeing and has never touched her sexuality probably. You see here's one main "reason of living" she could have. And since she believes she would still die in just a couple years after the surgery, the less she has this ideal too.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're the one who talked about "influence", as if it was relevant.
You're the one who made the mistake, not me.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I also don't have any reason to make an effort of will to end myself. I can easily come up with situations where that'd change. To be suicidal isn't a measure of stupidity, but of unhappiness and hopelessness, which can easily come from outside influence - or factors unrelated to one's intelligence.
Hey, it's all in your head. You could literally live in crap and feel happy, or you could be a typical rich white kid in the suburbs and feel like you are not even living. It's all in your head.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And that's relevant, how?
Somebody could have picked the gay thing out so I added that portion.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's your view of your duty to society. Not mine. Unlikely to be hers, too. And even if it was - as I explained, she's not likely to breed. Or make much money, due to child labor laws, low education and low tolerance to stress.
Explained above. Also, this is not your feeling of duty, it IS your duty. Breeding, that is. It is like army, you as a single person don't have to, but somebody else has to take your place then.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then why the hell did you even mention it?
Explained right above.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Having a healthy body... Unachievable dreams aren't much justification for living.
It is achievable, they could come up with electronic brains the next day and have your stuff scanned and "save you" to some dirty server computer in California. Nothing is impossible. She could be the one to break the 29 years record, but instead she just wants to give up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe she feels bad because she only has a few years to live and her time scale is different from everyone around her. Most of her agemates take it for granted they'll still be around in ten, in fifty years, and live accordingly. She can't do that.
Thus she feels crappy, leading her to deep depression and unrational thinking.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You either run out of money or grow bored with it all in pretty short order.


Tell that to him. 82.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Better than being in the hospital.
Do you understand how long she would be at the hospital?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And in her perception, a heart transplant wouldn't give her the kind of life worth sacrificing for.
And staying at home for a couple years with a failing heart is your good life? Sure I understand that it is traumatic for her, but hey, it can't be that traumatic, I see a picture of them having a birthday party at the hospital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What the hell makes you think the color of the walls has anything to do with it? What makes you think there's a single hospital on Earth she wouldn't find traumatic? The constant poking and prodding, the pervading sense of death, and smell of disinfectant, the horrible food... And the futility of it all.
Maybe you should visit a private hospital someday.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Eggs in a Bottle I think your ideas and responses would be valid if someone like me or most other members on this forum began to contemplate suicide. We're young, healthy, have resources, and most likely have at least some level of intelligence - we have a lot going for us, I'd say.
Ledge that is COMPLETELY against my point, I said people who feel inadequate as society members feel bad and don't realize that all the sick feeling is just coming from their feeling of inadequateness (bad looks, stupidity, mental violence from close-by people).

Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-17 at 10:55.
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Old 2008-11-17, 11:21   Link #35
Cluelessly
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@Eggs in a Bottle

But if they were really as unhappy as they pretend, says my antagonist, why do they remain in life?...

Not satisfied with life, afraid of death.

This is the secret chain, say I, that holds us. We are terrified, not bribed to the continuance of our existence.

It is only a false delicacy, he may insist, which a few refined spirits indulge, and which has spread these complaints among the whole race of mankind. . . . And what is this delicacy, I ask, which you blame? Is it any thing but a greater sensibility to all the pleasures and pains of life? and if the man of a delicate, refined temper, by being so much more alive than the rest of the world, is only so much more unhappy, what judgement must we form in general of human life?

Let men remain at rest, says our adversary, and they will be easy. They are willing artificers of their own misery. . . . No! reply I: an anxious languor follows their repose; disappointment, vexation, trouble, their activity and ambition.

Ask yourself, ask any of your acquaintance, whether they would live over again the last ten or twenty years of their life. No! but the next twenty, they say, will be better:


And from the dregs of life, hope to receive
What the first sprightly running could not give.


Thus at last they find (such is the greatness of human misery, it reconciles even contradictions), that they complain at once of the shortness of life, and of its vanity and sorrow.


Perhaps she is the wiser.

There is nothing to say that how she views life is incorrect. Life is not something that can be translated into anything concrete. There are no facts and figures that will prove whether or not her views are flawed. Without doubt they must have thought this through for a very long time.

You missed Anh_Minh's point on oblivion. It's not an argument for belief in the afterlife. But regardless, if there is an afterlife then she will gain a new existence, and if it is just oblivion then she has gained an eternity without either pain or pleasure. If it is the former, then maybe she will find happiness, and if it is the latter then even though she will never again experience mortal happiness, she will also never experience mortal pain. Unless you have proof backed by an omnipotent being who is able to perceive beyond the limits of human experience, I don't see how she is wrong and you are right.
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Old 2008-11-17, 11:21   Link #36
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggs in a Bottle View Post
Okay I'll do it much shorter this time, to ensure that this won't continue. I don't really like to argue mainly because I'm not too good at it, I'm like Jimmy Onishi scratching my head when I'm writing these posts, and I never know for which side of the argument I'm writing for, and yes I've been doing this for a while now on different forums and this is a very clear habit of mine.
Okay you believe in afterlife, you're the people who I call zealots, the perfect war machines, the more you believe in afterlife, the less you fear death. You seem to believe a bit, since oblivion is worse than anything. It is stupid for people to fear torture more than death. This is, when they are young. Old people having terrible diseases and then asking for it, I can understand.
Actually, I don't believe in an afterlife. I was just noting that most people did. But hey, way to respect other people's beliefs. So now anyone who believes in an afterlife is a dangerous, suicidal fanatic.

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That's because she's too young, her mind has been ehh *screwed* over by the life in the hospital, ever seen the anime Monster? Stuff like that, you know. She seems to believe that she could never ever feel happy again.
No, she believes that hospital life is unpleasant and would rather live free of it - even if it means her life will be shorter. Since she has much more personal experience with hospital and deadly diseases than I do, I'm inclined to believe her. Or at least that, to her, it's true. It's not like I'd throw the stone at someone making a different choice - for his or her own life.

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Okay I don't get it either.

Actually I do not have any other "reason of living" (like you would call it) than finding a girl and making babies. Lots of babies. I do not know why, but it is there.
That's a reason all the same. Not a very healthy one according to me, but whatever. I don't share it. She probably doesn't either.

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The girl is 13, most likely still in puberty from what I'm seeing and has never touched her sexuality probably. You see here's one main "reason of living" she could have. And since she believes she would still die in just a couple years after the surgery, the less she has this ideal too.
You want her to live for the sake of getting laid? Why?

Note that she's not a stranger to pleasure, or being in the hospital wouldn't make a difference.
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You're the one who made the mistake, not me.

Hey, it's all in your head. You could literally live in crap and feel happy, or you could be a typical rich white kid in the suburbs and feel like you are not even living. It's all in your head.
Everything is in our heads. So? The point is, she believes she'll be happier without the heart transplant. Why do you insist she's wrong?

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Somebody could have picked the gay thing out so I added that portion.
It's not even about the gay thing. The whole brick thing is out of nowhere. How does that argue for forcing a girl to have a heart transplant?

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Explained above. Also, this is not your feeling of duty, it IS your duty.
As you see it. Not everyone has to share your views.

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Breeding, that is. It is like army, you as a single person don't have to, but somebody else has to take your place then.
I do not believe we have any kind of duty to perpetuate ourselves. We do it because we want to, not out of "duty".

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Explained right above.
Your argument basically boils down to "because I say so". Not a very good one.

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It is achievable, they could come up with electronic brains the next day and have your stuff scanned and "save you" to some dirty server computer in California. Nothing is impossible.
Aliens coming down and saving her is more likely. Not something I'd want to bet on.

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She could be the one to break the 29 years record, but instead she just wants to give up.
That wouldn't be 30 years of health, that'd be 30 years of immuno suppressant and frequent hospital visits. And still not much in the way of long term plans.

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Thus she feels crappy, leading her to deep depression and unrational thinking.
You've so far failed to prove her choice was irrational, unless one accepts the premise that longevity trumps all other considerations.

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Tell that to him. 82.
He's doing it because he likes it, not because he's trying to distract himself from a deadly condition. And even so - that's just one guy liking something. What you're trying to argue is that anyone, given the chance, could live like that and be happy.

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Do you understand how long she would be at the hospital?
All her life, on and off.

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And staying at home for a couple years with a failing heart is your good life? Sure I understand that it is traumatic for her, but hey, it can't be that traumatic, I see a picture of them having a birthday party at the hospital.
That's one event. Not the daily grind.

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Maybe you should visit a private hospital someday.
If it doesn't smell of disinfectant I don't want to be treated there, and if it does I don't want to be there. Even if the food is better - the whole "people die there" and "doctors and nurses poke and prod you" won't change.


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Ledge that is COMPLETELY against my point,
Maybe you should explain your point better, then.

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I said people who feel inadequate as society members feel bad and don't realize that all the sick feeling is just coming from their feeling of inadequateness (bad looks, stupidity, mental violence from close-by people).
Right here, for example, I don't get what you're trying to say.
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Old 2008-11-17, 12:06   Link #37
Eggs in a Bottle
Ehh I love suits?
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Actually, I don't believe in an afterlife. I was just noting that most people did. But hey, way to respect other people's beliefs. So now anyone who believes in an afterlife is a dangerous, suicidal fanatic.
I did no say so, I said I call them zealots, but I did not say they are zealots. Your name could be Dick, but you wouldn't actually be a dick. They are zealot-like, because if somebody created a perfect war machine, he would either give it a simple, animal-like mind like orks in Warhammer, or a religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, she believes that hospital life is unpleasant and would rather live free of it - even if it means her life will be shorter. Since she has much more personal experience with hospital and deadly diseases than I do, I'm inclined to believe her. Or at least that, to her, it's true. It's not like I'd throw the stone at someone making a different choice - for his or her own life.
I've been in hospitals when I was younger, and no I wasn't in pain and not in surgery, but it was in no way even sad. You are in a bed, watching TV or reading, in a room. The nastiest things were the food (it is horrible) and the needle they stick in you, but I could imagine the surgery aftermath with your chest hurting and feeling dizzy from the sleepies and other poisons. Then all the theraphy and tests. Her room looked really dark, tiny and sad, though.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's a reason all the same. Not a very healthy one according to me, but whatever. I don't share it. She probably doesn't either.
Majority of mankind does. Also, of men, a massive majority.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You want her to live for the sake of getting laid? Why?
Why not? It is something everybody should experience, at least in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Note that she's not a stranger to pleasure, or being in the hospital wouldn't make a difference.
How so? She has been sick for the most of her early life, this is the time she would actually be growing up and forming to be a thinking, deeply feeling adult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Everything is in our heads. So? The point is, she believes she'll be happier without the heart transplant. Why do you insist she's wrong?
My first post said that she should just do it if she wants to, I believe I am describing why she is not thinking rationally. Suicide, by your own hand or not, slow or not, is not a happy thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's not even about the gay thing. The whole brick thing is out of nowhere. How does that argue for forcing a girl to have a heart transplant?
This was related to another portion, but since our posts have been sliced up so much, this has been ripped away (by you) from its mother to take its own course.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As you see it. Not everyone has to share your views.
Not everybody share my view of helping poor countries, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I do not believe we have any kind of duty to perpetuate ourselves. We do it because we want to, not out of "duty".
But it is, mankind would die if we wouldn't breed. You are living in a world of freedom and hidden duties and rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Your argument basically boils down to "because I say so". Not a very good one.
Yours does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Aliens coming down and saving her is more likely. Not something I'd want to bet on.
Actually not, "stored" mind is as common matter of study as is Artificial Intelligence nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That wouldn't be 30 years of health, that'd be 30 years of immuno suppressant and frequent hospital visits. And still not much in the way of long term plans.
Why do you compare it to a normal life? Compare it to her choice of life. She has a failing heart...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You've so far failed to prove her choice was irrational, unless one accepts the premise that longevity trumps all other considerations.
How so? We have debated of the quality of both choices and you have yet to prove that her choice of living with her heart WITH A HOLE IN IT, in her early teens which many people complain to have been a difficult time, is somehow better than going into a surgery, being in the hospital for months, getting released, and visiting the hospital constantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
You either run out of money or grow bored with it all in pretty short order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He's doing it because he likes it, not because he's trying to distract himself from a deadly condition. And even so - that's just one guy liking something. What you're trying to argue is that anyone, given the chance, could live like that and be happy.
What are you talking about, first you said the money line, I posted Hugh Hefner, then you start going on about something other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
All her life, on and off.
Quote:
Your child will have very close follow-up with the transplant team after leaving the hospital. This will allow for close monitoring of your child and the function of the transplanted heart. Follow-up visits in the clinic may include the following:

complete physical examination
blood work
echocardiogram
cardiac catheterization with biopsy
continued education for you and your child
medication changes

Children who have received a heart transplant will need life-long follow-up with physicians who are specialized in transplant medicine. Keeping appointments with your child's transplant physician, as well as maintaining contact with the transplant team when symptoms of rejection occur, is vital. Parents (and the recipient, when old enough) are the first line of defense; they must understand and recognize the symptoms of rejection, and report them as soon as possible to the transplant team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's one event. Not the daily grind.
You ignore my point and pick an added edit that is just side notification.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If it doesn't smell of disinfectant I don't want to be treated there, and if it does I don't want to be there. Even if the food is better - the whole "people die there" and "doctors and nurses poke and prod you" won't change.
Oh my, what an agony, people poking you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe you should explain your point better, then.
Way to be a douche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Right here, for example, I don't get what you're trying to say.
Maybe you should get a dictionary from somewhere and just look the word "inadequate" up. That would explain a lot, I assume.

Also, pain being described as a thing to evade even by killing yourself, why do masochists love fear and love pain? Why do athletes and body builders push their muscles beyond their limit, causing pain?
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Old 2008-11-17, 12:56   Link #38
WanderingKnight
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HURR HURR, QUOTE WAR.

Quote:
Maybe you should get a dictionary from somewhere and just look the word "inadequate" up.
Maybe you should learn how to formulate phrases coherently. I know perfectly what the word "inadequate" means but I can't for the life of me understand that sentence you posted there.

Quote:
How so? We have debated of the quality of both choices and you have yet to prove that her choice of living with her heart WITH A HOLE IN IT, in her early teens which many people complain to have been a difficult time, is somehow better than going into a surgery, being in the hospital for months, getting released, and visiting the hospital constantly.
Look, if she doesn't like hospitals and hates the idea of being constantly living a poor-quality life, and plugging herself off is her choice, why, oh why in the blazes would you prevent her from doing it?

If she thinks living like that is a torture, then it will irreversibly be a torture. Self-suggestion can go a long way, you know, no matter how many flowers and rainbows and rosy-colored rabbits you show her.

The point is not about what the "better choice" is--it's about what she considers the better choice to be. Not you, not me, not anyone. Maybe you would be willing to go through a shitload of operations and constant medical surveillance in order to live a couple of years more. She doesn't want to, and it's not your place to tell her what's the best choice--because she simply knows herself better than you.
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Old 2008-11-17, 14:21   Link #39
TinyRedLeaf
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Age: 39
Pardon me for skipping the last few ping-pong posts. Since I've inadvertently started a debate within a news thread, I think it's appropriate for me to balance my original post with the other point-of-view that Eggs in a Bottle was perhaps trying to make.

Helping the dying with living
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Singapore (Nov 5, 2008): Euthanasia is the wrong conversation to have in a nation concerned with dying with dignity.

The focus instead should be on care — how to help the terminally ill live with less pain, says Dr Rosalie Shaw, a palliative-care specialist who has helped hundreds here live out their last days over the past 16 years.

"Euthanasia is not about allowing the terminally ill to die with dignity and without distress," asserts the Australian, who moved to Singapore from Perth in 1992 to help set up hospice care here. "Instead, it is an act with the intention to kill."

As a consultant at the National Cancer Centre and visiting consultant at Singapore KK Women's and Children's Hospital, she tends to the terminally ill. As executive director of the Asia Pacific Hospice Palliative Care Network, she trains doctors and nurses in end-of-life care all over Asia.

Most people don't really want to die

Weighing in on the euthanasia debate, which was sparked off here when Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan raised the issue last month in response to letters on euthanasia in the Chinese press, she says most terminally-ill people do not really want to die.

"When people ask to die, what they really mean is, 'Do you know how difficult this is?'," she says. The plea is usually a cry for help. "As their bodies break down, they hope that they will not linger long, but they don't expect doctors to do anything but listen."

Dr Shaw declines to discuss her religion, saying it is a "private matter". The grounds on which she opposes euthanasia are both professional and personal, she says. As a doctor taught to heal or cure, the "intent to kill" is anathema.

Listening to hundreds of terminally-ill people has taught her that the wish to die is not always due to physical pain. Very often, distress is made more acute by mental turmoil — caused by social isolation, depression, anxiety or sorrow.

Different attitudes to impending death

While no two people face death exactly the same way, she has noticed broad similarities.

Such as how the dying often lose their appetite as their organs shut down, yet their families continue to force-feed them in the hope that they will recover. Some embrace religion before death, hoping for a miraculous recovery, but feel let down by God as death closes in on them anyway.

Often, those who have the hardest time accepting death are successful men in their 50s and 60s "who seem surprised that wealth cannot buy health".

In general, she has found that most people cling to life, rather than want to end it. Singapore, she says, should not be taking a short cut and legalising this form of killing. "A society that allows euthanasia devalues life," she maintains. What Singapore should work on instead, she feels, is improving end-of-life care.

- The Straits Times

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


- Dylan Thomas (1951)

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-11-17 at 14:36.
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Old 2008-11-17, 14:45   Link #40
WanderingKnight
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I'm sorry, but if the girl wants to die, what part of it is related to euthanasia?
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