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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10 44 40.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 33.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 12.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 9.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.85%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.85%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-11-21, 02:24   Link #81
Avacado Burger
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Shiraishi's tsundere speech fails to take in to account the evolution of language and how language is used. Shiraishi's definition would more fall under "Defrosting Ice Queen", these days.
True, but even then not taking language into account, I've always judged tsundere on primarily behavior, and whereas it used to be this process of natural progression, you call it Defrosting the Ice Queen, I call it Sieging the Fort; it's now just this bipolar hot/cold/hot/cold up/down/up/down hate/love/hate/love with little to no middle ground (where you can see the results starting to work).

I mean it's OK once in an awhile, but all these tsundere characters now have this neurotic bipolar trait to them.

Anyways, said what I had on my chest. Carry on with Episode 8!
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Old 2008-11-21, 02:35   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Avacado Burger View Post
See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes. In accordance of the famous Shiraishi tsundere speech, I'd be more inclined to call Taiga 'severely bipolar', instead of referring to her as a true tsundere. Does she fall in that technical definition? I guess, but she really rides the maximum peaks of those sadistic highs, and bawls like a baby during those deep sea lows. These don't even seem like natural emotional progressions either, kinda just change emotions on a whim. A lot.

She's got some serious problems that need to be addressed. A little screwed up, if you will. But can I truly blame her though? She lives by herself and can't cook, is completely flat, people are afraid of her, and gets called the Palmtop Tiger. By this rationale, I'd be a little pissed off at the world as well.

Still love the kiddo, though.
Aye, everyone in this cast is dysfunctional and broken in different ways. Its a *story* about such people and how they bond (or not). Taiga has a really thick shell but clearly Ryuuji senses it is just a shell (as does Minorin and Kitamura). Ami has several facets - none quite healthy; her dysfunctionality is almost driving her into psychosis and it comes out in fits of meanness; but Kitamura thinks there's something salvageable in her and eventually so does Ryuuji. Taiga wants to help but only for Kitamura's sake. Minorin has a crusty shell of manic comedic happy happy joy joy -- haven't quite got an angle on her inner demons yet. Kitamura seems incapable of fixing anything himself, has a thing about rough women. Sumire looks beautiful, talks tough, but can't seem to remember anything. The teacher is neurotic over her "christmas cake dilemma", Ryuuji's mom is a sad little basketcase of a widow working a pretend happyhappy job.
And so on and so on.

The result is character-driven drama as they interact and comedy in the tragic sense about the human condition. Okay, that's putting a bit too much weight on the story -- but for some of us, we're finding that somewhat compelling.
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Old 2008-11-21, 03:05   Link #83
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Caster, As I said, the Taiga emotions mostly seem to come from her dis likeness towards Ami rather than her having much feelings to Ryuuji and besides the scenes simply cannot compare in the sense of intensity.

Which what makes it look so random.

One episode ago she was taking it well, and having it all controlled (more or less) and definitively not yelling out Loudly, she didn't even care much about the whole issue as it was forgotten very soon, this is what makes this scene in the pool so weird and out of place.

I never questioned the general development but I do question how the heck the situation changed during one episode that did not have had much (or major) of character development to begin with. You describe me how their feelings changed in general - of course they did, but no one questioned that. The question is upon the level of intensity produced within a gap of one episode. And since that episode did not have the time skip the difference in level of intensity cannot be explained by that (and by gradual progression either). To quickly change this much the episode itself has to have some major shock that could be a development reason... But we cannot see one - the whole Ami thing was forgotten in the beginning already, and the rest epsidoe centered on the swimming. The greatest shock would be Ryuuji touching her breasts, but i doubt it could be used as a mean to explain such such emotional intensity change that we witnessed here.

It is nice having them follow novels and all but they should also pay attention to the differences their anime adaption is creating and to follow them rather than juts write down a scene that is suited for novels but would require some additional build-up for the anime.
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Old 2008-11-21, 03:10   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
It is nice having them follow novels and all but they should also pay attention to the differences their anime adaption is creating and to follow them rather than juts write down a scene that is suited for novels but would require some additional build-up for the anime.
Now that statement I can certainly agree with....

The first thing I'll concede in much of anime is that skilled anime adaptation writers are more an exception than the rule. They often tend to run into trouble when they create blank space they have to fill or when they have to condense material and then connect the results.
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Old 2008-11-21, 03:24   Link #85
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Which is what I believe happened in here. Director took a different turn in here (by making Ami issue not that important to Taiga and not showing that Taiga is jealousy, which seemed to indicate that differently from novels in anime Taiga do not harbor that intense feelings at this point to make it an issue). So one could assume that the next scene it is connected to - swimming pool would be altered accordingly, but the director either decided to ignore what he did before or simply fell in a pitch created by his lack of directing skills and were not confident he could wiggle his way out, and decided to just simply write down the novel plot not paying attention to the differences he created.
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Old 2008-11-21, 03:36   Link #86
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Spoiler for don't know how many people have seen ep 8 sub yet:
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Old 2008-11-21, 04:03   Link #87
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I don't think Taiga's outburst was too out of the blue even with the fast pacing the anime has shown. Ryuuji nearly drowned, which nobody even noticed. Taiga is very prone to emotional outbursts. Somebody that important to her nearly dying is more than enough to warrant an outburst like that and you see her trying to tell Ryuuji how she feels earlier, so it was obviously on her mind.

The oddest decision I've seen from the anime director was the decision to downplay Taiga's reaction to the Ami incident. Well that, and the two filler episodes, but I liked that addition since it developed Minori a bit more than the novel had at that point. Plus it hints a bit about what we learn about Minori in volume 4 of the novel. Or at least I think thats what the intention was.

Oh well, I've been very happy with the adaptation so far. I love these characters for all their many disfuctions.
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Old 2008-11-21, 04:57   Link #88
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Heh, the Aisaka training montage featured a Chariots of Fire remix.

Such a classic Olympic-training-montage music.
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Old 2008-11-21, 05:00   Link #89
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I thought the way they changed the scene in the anime made Taiga's scream a little random and at the same time lessened the emotional impact.

In the novels, there were a ton of people in the pool and it was pretty chaotic. Ryuuji really WAS in danger of drowning. In the anime, there are only 3 people in the pool up to that point and everyone clearly heard Taiga's "Ryuuji!!!" and to the viewer it looks like a complete overreaction on Taiga's part.

I'm also disappointed they didn't animate my favorite little scene from this chapter where Ami spots Ryuuji in the confusion, smiles, and then flashes her breasts at him.
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Old 2008-11-21, 05:16   Link #90
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I agree. The outburst on its own was intense, and was masterfully done by Rie, but the buildup was not there.

The novels described Taiga as using the last of her strength to rescue Ryuuji while letting herself sink, which builds up the intensity within the scene. Taiga had a cramp, had to drag Ryuuji to the end of the pool while fighting exhaustion, had to face a hostile and apathetic crowd that thought Ryuuji was swimming with her, and nearly drowned trying to save him. She finally snapped.

The anime skipped most of these, and the lack of build up, as so many people have pointed out, makes it appear random.
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Old 2008-11-21, 05:18   Link #91
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Hmm. Dunno, I can see it, but than I'm pretty following both version as they're released or translated.
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Old 2008-11-21, 06:54   Link #92
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I think the way the novel scene was described was a bit too intense for what is still about Taiga and blustering out that she may care more for Ryuuji than she let on (at least to classmates). Also, it sorta doesn't make sense if there was way more ruckus than there were in a one on one duel anyway.
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Old 2008-11-21, 08:09   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
... so if you don't enjoy it, why are you watching ToraDora in the first place? To have something to complain about?

Beyond that, friendly insults don't 'just' happen in high school. I've seen them in the workplace, at sporting events and in team sports, and just about everywhere else. To say that someone calling someone else a bitch is meant to be hurtful, no ifs, ands, or buts, is a sign of either extreme presumption or else that one takes things too seriously. Or has no friends, or lacks any interaction with other human beings. Context is everything when it comes to statements - otherwise calling someone a genius would be always an acclamation of someone's intellect, when the situation could be the reverse; that's what we call sarcasm, after all. Or the reverse example of 'magnificent bastard' - which should be an insult (calling someone a very large or exceptionally exemplary product of a union between unwed parents aka: illegitimate child)... isn't.

Beyond that, idiom depends on context as well as shared understandings... and humans aren't always very literal minded. Look at how the exclamation "look out' developed - it doesn't usually mean to look around; it is used rather to tell someone about an immediate danger. Or should I point to the usage of one-word statements like "Duck!" which are dependent on the tone of voice as well as situation? Thus in this situation, one has to look at when and how Taiga's calling Ryuuji a certain name - just as 'Palmtop Tiger' isn't a literal description of Taiga (she is neither four to six inches long or an actual Siberian or Indian tiger), 'dog' in this situation may not be her calling him a dog or even a serious insult. As Yasuko pointed out earlier in this episode, if Taiga really hated Ryuuji she wouldn't be getting all worked up over him.
That's why i use "much".
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Old 2008-11-21, 08:10   Link #94
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I'll give this an 8 for what happened. (More of like, a 7. A +1 though for Ami with a sideways ponytail which is really moe)

I was kind of confused halfway through with Taiga's anger since it seemed rather sudden and abrupt, but it was kind of interesting to watch it play out. While it's natural for someone like Taiga to throw a tantrum over such an issue, I just wish we could have her understand her issues when she was a little more innocent and understanding. I wonder if she really knows that she shouldn't treat other people this way, or people may of stare at her because of her violent attitude.

It was a good episode, but still felt like it could have more. Not to mention that it doesn't really affect anything since Ryuuji is still a "dog" and everyone is now going to the Villa. Instead of them just agreeing to it, they had to have this big whole rivalry.

I'm still rather confused though with the rest of the main cast. We are only at Episode 8, but it feels like we should get more input from them. Particularly from Kitamura and Minori. Ami right now is being used just to push Taiga's buttons, which work on a tsundere, but I feel like it defeats her purpose. I hope that when we move to the next episode we see some more of her personal side.

And am I the only one who's really irritated about the other students? I mean, first off they set up this whole plan to bet against Taiga vs. Ami, yet they want to exclusively keep Ryuuji out of it. While the contest is taking place, there are other male students complaning to Ryuuji about how he's so lucky to be fought over, especially by "Ami-tan." And during the contest when Ryuuji gets Taiga to start swimming again, they push one student into the pool right on to Ryuuji. And no one bothers to save him, causing Taiga to do it and let Ami win the competition. ...where are there sense of decency?
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Old 2008-11-21, 08:11   Link #95
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
... so if you don't enjoy it, why are you watching ToraDora in the first place? To have something to complain about?

Beyond that, friendly insults don't 'just' happen in high school. I've seen them in the workplace, at sporting events and in team sports, and just about everywhere else. To say that someone calling someone else a bitch is meant to be hurtful, no ifs, ands, or buts, is a sign of either extreme presumption or else that one takes things too seriously. Or has no friends, or lacks any interaction with other human beings. Context is everything when it comes to statements - otherwise calling someone a genius would be always an acclamation of someone's intellect, when the situation could be the reverse; that's what we call sarcasm, after all. Or the reverse example of 'magnificent bastard' - which should be an insult (calling someone a very large or exceptionally exemplary product of a union between unwed parents aka: illegitimate child)... isn't.

Beyond that, idiom depends on context as well as shared understandings... and humans aren't always very literal minded. Look at how the exclamation "look out' developed - it doesn't usually mean to look around; it is used rather to tell someone about an immediate danger. Or should I point to the usage of one-word statements like "Duck!" which are dependent on the tone of voice as well as situation? Thus in this situation, one has to look at when and how Taiga's calling Ryuuji a certain name - just as 'Palmtop Tiger' isn't a literal description of Taiga (she is neither four to six inches long or an actual Siberian or Indian tiger), 'dog' in this situation may not be her calling him a dog or even a serious insult. As Yasuko pointed out earlier in this episode, if Taiga really hated Ryuuji she wouldn't be getting all worked up over him.
That's why i use "much times for things i do not enjoy".

I keeps my words through
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Old 2008-11-21, 10:38   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Caster, As I said, the Taiga emotions mostly seem to come from her dis likeness towards Ami rather than her having much feelings to Ryuuji and besides the scenes simply cannot compare in the sense of intensity.

Which what makes it look so random.

One episode ago she was taking it well, and having it all controlled (more or less) and definitively not yelling out Loudly, she didn't even care much about the whole issue as it was forgotten very soon, this is what makes this scene in the pool so weird and out of place.
Not just one episode, but five days.

The end of episode six, starting with where Taiga becomes more aware of how she feels about the relationship between her and Ryuuji, Taiga sees Ami coming onto Ryuuji.
Episode seven continues on from the same day but, includes the passing of two days throughout the entire episode.
Episode eight starts on a new day and involves the passing of three more days with the competition being on the third.

One hundred and twenty hours is a lot of time for someone to have to think about. And when it comes to romance, that's something that can easily be obsessed over. Five days ago she might have just been annoyed at Ami, but five days is a lot of times for something to fester and boil over.

Since Taiga's wild and emotionally unstable in general. I don't think it matters what she gets emotional about, she's just easy to set off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avacado Burger View Post
See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caster13
The wonderful thing about television (and fiction in general) is that it allows for the comedy of exaggeration, extremes, and dysfunction.
Oh, and, does anybody have any idea what the end-of-episode preview meant? Kitamura has black seaweed...? Did she like, get a look at his junk or something...?
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Old 2008-11-21, 11:10   Link #97
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Oh, you will be quite pleasantly surprised with the seaweed... At least, I hope.
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Old 2008-11-21, 11:12   Link #98
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Good episode lots of development and lots of laughs. Taiga is very emotional character which is one of the reasons why i like her. Granted most of the time those emotions are expressed in anger but every now and then like in this episode we get a good look at how much range her character has. Its not surprising that she got emotional over Ryu almost drowning. Linking her previous statements to Ryu over not knowing herself and then stating Ryuuji is mine made perfect sense to me. She was not sure why she was competing with Ami. She dislikes Ami so any way she make her lose face Taiga would take but it was different this time as Taiga got very defensive over Ryuuji. When she finally figured it out everything came bursting out like a dam that was hit with rocket. Repressed emotions and not understanding them when they surface results in what we saw happen to Taiga.

In short ADOLESCENTS IS BITCH

But i must admit i died laughing when Taiga threw all the kiddy pool toys and tore Ami swimsuit off and launched it to slow her down. Work smarter not harder good job Taiga even though you lost.
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Old 2008-11-21, 11:17   Link #99
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Now imagine if Ami would have done the same to Taiga... Would it still be a laughing matter?
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Old 2008-11-21, 11:23   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Now imagine if Ami would have done the same to Taiga... Would it still be a laughing matter?
Oh i would have laughed my ass off either way because it was creative. There were never any rules stated so technically what Taiga did was not cheating if Ami would have done the same thing I still would have laughed. Like I said work smarter not harder. The goal was to win there was nothing stated about how to win.
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