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Old 2004-05-17, 19:14   Link #1
ShellyKukai
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Join Date: May 2004
{manga} Nina and the desire to forgive.. spoilers ahead

Hello ^_^,
Okay, for those of you who have finished the manga, this, among other things confused me.

In volume 18 Nina says several times that she wants to forgive her brother...
But for what exactly?

Because she was chosen to take part in the Red Rose Mansion seminars in his place? Or just the fact that he murdered all of the people she considered family since they were both little?
I thought it was the former but I;m interested in any explenations other readers have to offer.
She explains that if she had just forgiven Johan, none of the terrible events would have taken place. When she attemps to apologize just when Johan is intent on being shot dead by Tenma, he says its too late to make ammends.

何と言う意味でしょうかねえ    

Last edited by ShellyKukai; 2004-05-17 at 21:35. Reason: spoiler for manga
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Old 2004-05-17, 21:11   Link #2
Yebyosh
冤枉的小狗
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
Off hand, I would say that it is the former cause.

Nina is forgiving Johan to absolve his self-blame that his sister was taken. Note how Johan has totally immersed himself in Nina's role & experiences there. By becoming her, he is trying to 'rewrite' history such that she could be the one to forget that she had been there and think that it was he who was there instead.

However by taking this self-guilt upon himself, he has stepped down the road towards being the monster. By propagating this illusion, he has burdened himself with the troubles and recriminations of being the monster. The end of the road for being a monster is not a happy ending as well but rather bleak. Johan still decided to go on.

Nina, in trying to forgive Johan is trying to stop him from going further on this road. However Johan felt that he has went too far to ever recover from being the monster. The events he propagated has moved too far to recover from. In a way, the monster was caught up within his own spun web.

Sidenote: At the end, it seems to me more that Johan is strangely gifted & highly intelligent young boy at that age (moreso than Nina). Perhaps he was the intended target of Bonaparta and Nina was the innocent that was caught. Or perhaps the mother had sacrificed Nina, knowing that Johan would indeed become a monster if he was the one that went. But in any case, a monster was indeed born when Nina was brought to the Red Mansion. It just wasn't her.

I think it would be better to change the title of this thread to "[Manga] Conclusion : Nina's Forgiveness" or something to that effect (some anime only people might wander in thinking its an anime discussion).
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Old 2004-05-17, 21:40   Link #3
ShellyKukai
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Join Date: May 2004
True, but then again I was never under the impression that Nina held a grudge agaisnt her brother for being the chosen one.
The guilt was probably self-inflicted but i'm not sure it if there was any malice in Nina deciding to tell her brother about her experiences at the mansion.
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Old 2004-05-17, 22:50   Link #4
Yebyosh
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyKukai
True, but then again I was never under the impression that Nina held a grudge agaisnt her brother for being the chosen one.
The guilt was probably self-inflicted but i'm not sure it if there was any malice in Nina deciding to tell her brother about her experiences at the mansion.
I fear you misunderstood me.

1. Nina was taken to the Red Mansion. We have to know that she was not aware of the purpose in this.
2. She saw the horror.
3. She came back and Johan asked her to tell everything.
4. Johan becomes "Nina" in that experience and somehow manages to wipe/block Nina's memory (most probably it is Nina who gave herself memory block but Johan might have influence her into having it).
5. They flee. Johan after immersing himself in that experience however turns into a monster.

What I was trying to say is that Johan felt guilty for Nina's fate (being sent to the Red Mansion). As a result, he became Nina and in emersing himself in the Red Mansion's horror, it is almost as if he was the one there instead, the real monster is hence created.

So Nina in forgiving Johan was to dispel Johan's self-guilt. He felt that Nina would not have seen those terrible stuff if he was the one there instead. She never bore him any grudge or anything.
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Old 2004-05-17, 22:59   Link #5
ShellyKukai
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I understood what you said before. However, when Nina says she is determined to forgive her brother, it made me question if the forgiveness was to put both of them at ease. I wonder if there was a possibility of her subconciously holding her "rejection" against her brother. Otherwise was everything just on Johan's shoulders.
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