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Old 2008-08-19, 06:34   Link #61
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
a C&D letter is not that big a deal, no need to blow it out of proportions
A single C&D isn't, I agree.

What I'm more concerned of is that this "we'll quickly sign a legal note that Funi may enforce our rights and send out mass C&Ds in our stead" approach will spread. Especially since a growing number of industry representatives seem to agree with the overall direction. Because if this gains traction and is only seen as a "success" by the licenceholders, things can get very ugly very quick.

It's entirely up to them to defend their rights, let me be very clear about that. I only believe that doing so while not offering a credible alternative might be very harmful to us. That's what I'm warning of.
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Old 2008-08-19, 07:13   Link #62
tyrionlannister
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In my opinion, anime distributors are not being honest at all. They are claiming that they decide to license a series based only on a few episodes.

In practice, they typically license only after an anime has finished airing, or in the case of long-running series such as Kateikyoushi Hitman Reborn!, they want to send C&Ds (not even licensing) two years after the show began airing.

I think this is because they obviously look at download numbers, and specifically batch torrent downloads, before deciding to license a series.

Because of this, their sales obviously suffer when they wait two years for some series to even start considering whether or not to license.

This latest tactic of sending C&Ds is dangerous and could potentially blow up in their faces. They are basically saying: OK, from now on you should patiently await for about 1, 1.5 years to infinity for us to even license some titles, let alone publish them, and you'd better be thankful for it.

In effect, they are asking for people to stop watching the anime they like for the (potentially) 1.5 - 2 years it takes for them to publish it, while maintaining the faith that they WILL BE licensed and distributed.

Also, they assume that fansubs are only viewed in the regions of the world where they distribute them, which IMHO is not true. For example, in my country, there are a few DVDs of Akira and the like available, and they are around 40 USD a disc.
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Old 2008-08-19, 07:25   Link #63
xris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrionlannister View Post
In my opinion, anime distributors are not being honest at all. They are claiming that they decide to license a series based only on a few episodes.
Please oh please read the opening post of this thread, in particular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
Please note that FUNimation are acting on the behalf of the Japanese IP owners d-rights and Enoki Films.
The anime distributor (in this case Funimation) are acting on behalf of the Japanese rights holder. Plus, they make it clear that the C&D has nothing to do with a license.

Posts like the one above are going to get deleted, so please get a clue what the purpose of this thread is for before posting.
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Old 2008-08-19, 08:02   Link #64
tyrionlannister
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The first part of post was in reply to
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
The issue here is that the companies are usually looking at the series within the first couple of episodes. The numbers are completely unreliable early on. Also, download numbers are known to end up biting you in the rear end hard. Azumanga is famous for having high download numbers, but insanely low sales comparatively. Haruhi is similar in that over 50000 saw it fansubbed, but maybe a 10th of those actually bothered to buy a disc. Fansub numbers definitely do not translate into sales all the time.
If Funimation says it is acting on behalf of the Japanese rights holders, then they should have a contract with them, with suitable monetary compensation. If that is not the case, then they are clearly just protecting their own future sales, through a forthcoming licence, which may actually have been agreed upon, just not announced yet.

By the way, has there been an official announcement from d-rights and Enoki Films regarding these, and if so a link to it in English?
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Old 2008-08-19, 09:05   Link #65
Green²
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FUNimation Talks Cease & Desists
http://www.mania.com/funimation-talk...cle_86894.html
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Old 2008-08-19, 10:44   Link #66
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From the referenced press release:
Industry watchers and anime fans have long known our stance on the unauthorized distribution of anime, especially prior to localization. The practices of illegal downloads and 'fansubbing' are very harmful to our Japanese partners and as part of the longstanding relationship between FUNimation and d-rights and Enoki Films, we have been asked to monitor and take action against unauthorized distribution of these titles. Because we believe that this will benefit the industry, we have agreed to do so."

Good luck with that theory guys.... and I've yet to see any significant established harm to the japanese partners. Yes, they're perfectly within their rights.... just as a store owner may force me to leave the establishment for no apparent reason. However, there isn't any evidence that it will "benefit the industry".
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Old 2008-08-19, 11:13   Link #67
cyth
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Analogies...

As I've said earlier, DVD sales are down partly because of piracy that is shrinking the casual consumer market for home video (it's not just anime that's affected here). How this hurts the Japanese is the amount of money--upfront fees and royalties--that they can reasonably demand in licensing agreements. This revenue stream is by no means insignificant, considering a niche show like Bamboo Blade only cost about 130k per episode to produce. What they demanded for anime licenses in 2004 was most likely out of proportion, so prices had to go down, but piracy is another factor which lowers it even further down. Of course, we mustn't forget that Japanese still value the thought of having control over their content, so this might not be such a trivial point for them as everyone wants to make it.
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Old 2008-08-19, 15:29   Link #68
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Good luck with that theory guys.... and I've yet to see any significant established harm to the japanese partners. ... However, there isn't any evidence that it will "benefit the industry".
Remember that the Japanese still believe that reverse importation is going to kill them despite never having an instance of it actually happening. I've heard evidence of actual harm that is being attributed to fansubs. Whether it is entirely fansubs or just an easy boogieman, who knows. Also, this is a press release so those claims shouldn't be that surprising.

And I believe the logic goes something like "If we can reduce the number of illegal copies floating around to begin with, people will have a harder time finding it and may instead resort to buying the product."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrionlannister View Post
In my opinion, anime distributors are not being honest at all. They are claiming that they decide to license a series based only on a few episodes.

In practice, they typically license only after an anime has finished airing, or in the case of long-running series such as Kateikyoushi Hitman Reborn!, they want to send C&Ds (not even licensing) two years after the show began airing.
Negotiations take months, if not years in some rare cases. Especially when you have companies like Enoki, who is known for screwing over licensors, it takes a long time for the companies because they have to get out of the corner Enoki puts them in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
once they threaten to bring a lawsuit against someone, then there will be huge repercussions and an outward backlash in the industry.
that is what the MPAA does and the negative perception that the world has of them speaks for their actions.
It depends on who the lawsuit is against and what for. There are a number of places (ex: pay to download) which I am sure will result in a small number of people bitching, but will be cheered by the majority. If someone had gotten sued for GITS:SSS, I don't think anyone would have sympathized with them since they were warned it would happen.

Quote:
how many C&D letters has DB received? if any company was going to take offensive action I would think it would be Viz.
None. Viz almost never takes action.
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Old 2008-08-19, 16:39   Link #69
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
There are a number of places (ex: pay to download) which I am sure will result in a small number of people bitching, but will be cheered by the majority.
Example with URL, please.
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Old 2008-08-19, 17:22   Link #70
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Remember that the Japanese still believe that reverse importation is going to kill them despite never having an instance of it actually happening..
I've always been a bit puzzled by the concern over reverse importation. All these series have been shown on television, so Japanese viewers can already watch, and record, this material themselves. (No one criticizes Konata-chan's anime recording habit in Lucky Star; if anything, it's treated like a normal occurrence.) Then there's the fact that the raws are also available on torrents. Fansubs don't change this situation.
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Old 2008-08-19, 18:37   Link #71
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Now, as an industry-friendly guy, your position better be "due to the C&Ds, the sales numbers increased". Otherwise, the obvious loss of popularity would have been counterproductive.
If I had the numbers to support this position, I would have said it. The industry seems to make the position more of what I said in my last post. If they can make the legit material easier to acquire than the pirated material, they can get more of the laziness sales.

Quote:
What numbers are you talking about, I wonder? The last label to really press C&Ds for a longer time has been ADV, and we know how well ADV is doing these days. However, I'd think it's not credible to link the number of C&Ds to sales numbers directly.
The numbers are simply "Do C&Ds seem to be harming the company?" as measured by "Are they still doing it?", "Are these titles still being licensed?", "Is the company in trouble visibly?", etc. There doesn't seem to have ever been a publicly visible economic backlash against any company for a C&D. (I don't recall ADV going hard on with those at all for unlicensed titles. FUNi has been doing them for themselves and third parties for a while and they just keep growing.) If the C&D's actually hurt them or the titles, they wouldn't do it or would find another way of doing it.

Quote:
Oh, suddenly they "can move on to another show"? You're contradicting yourself. That's what the anime industry is cracking down on. Or does that suddenly only apply to "some" shows? It's the other way round: As long as only few shows got C&Ded, things were okay overall. But if THAT balance i disturbed and more and more shows are declared "off limits", I foresee an avalanche.
Yes, this is a numbers game for the effects. However, the points behind it were the following (and no, it wasn't a contradiction):
1) They are not going to C&D all shows for a while and there are going to be more and more legal alternatives as we go along.
2) The R1 industry already complains that after a show has ended, the audience just runs off to another show giving them a very small window of time to actually be able to capitalize off the fansub crowd.
Therefore, what's stopping them from doing the same with a C&D or the title getting licensed? Ex: All the people brand new to the slayers series can watch the first season on FUNi's youtube channel. (Mostly rhetorical question and half-serious example, I'm well aware of the answer.)

For split season shows (Geass/00), the majority of the fandom stops caring about the show between seasons and yet suddenly they can't do it when there is an artificially split season. (Desire to be current, etc.)

Quote:
As long as no equivalent "legal alternative" is provided, I consider this approach foolish. And sorry: Streaming is no equivalent. And pretending that DVD releases are the way to go for anime fans to continue their hobby is outright ridiculous. That's not how the fans were "raised". And 200+ dollars for DVDs per month is BS, sorry.
While I agree it is silly to C&D without a legal alternative, they do not need to provide the legal alternative the second they C&D. Viz was supposed to start soon after their Death Note C&D and then it took them 3 or 4 months to actually start. Things just don't happen as quickly as people who watch fansubs believe they do or want them to. Heck, things don't even happen fast enough for DVD watchers. (Funimation fought for months to get the digital rights to Ouran host club... and that delayed the DVD release *shakes fist*.)

I won't even bother debating the streaming point since I know your position on it except saying that youtube h.264 HQ, niconico mp4 HQ, or southparkstudios or similar should be perfectly fine quality for anyone currently watching SD fansubs. Most shows are not HD and most of Japan does not watch them in HD, and yet people complain as if everything exists in HD. (Ex: Druaga )

Also, $200 a month for DVDs? I don't think anyone is asking people to spend that much. 5 series will cost $40/month at $2/ep which is the going online price for SD DTO episodes.
(Note: Since people don't seem to be clear on it, my position is not everyone must buy the DVDs. It's "Put your money where your mouth is if you like a series".)
Quote:
And of course, you dutifully purchase the DVDs to do so ^_^

*sweet smile*
Plenty of legal ways to watch the rest of the show without purchasing the DVDs. I'd probably have picked up the DVDs anyway (depending on money and priority of title).


Also, re previous post, Narutofan and Tazmo's other sites.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-08-20 at 05:15. Reason: Late ninja edit to fix memory of ADV
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Old 2008-08-19, 22:17   Link #72
Darkje
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The fact is, pushing out a C&D to fansubbers, while people are not offered an alternative will only lead to one thing...

Mentar's prediction #1, which has come true already today...whoever the people are behind subbing one of these shows now are 100% unknown.

Same remark I made in the beginning, everything will go underground, which is going to work against the goal of these C&D notices!

A solution to the current situation is something that needs to be worked out between rights holders and the "fans", not a one sided attempt to sidestep the problem.

edit:

To clarify, in my opinion, there is a big difference between licensing a series and sending a C&D to fansubbers.

I always thought a series getting licensed by a company was a nod towards the community that the series are coming out and to knock off the fansubbing...it's not confrontational,
while a C&D is imho very much so.
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Old 2008-08-20, 15:08   Link #73
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
how many C&D letters has DB received? if any company was going to take offensive action I would think it would be Viz.
They've received a grand total of zero C&D letters from Viz.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-08-20, 15:20   Link #74
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkje View Post
I always thought a series getting licensed by a company was a nod towards the community that the series are coming out and to knock off the fansubbing...it's not confrontational,
while a C&D is imho very much so.
The problem is that, historically speaking, that doesn't work, and almost every show that gets licensed midway through continues to be fansubbed. One could make the argument that it's the fansubbers who refused to stop that caused this C&D business in the first place. (standard disclaimer: I'm not making that argument.)

-Tofu
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Old 2008-11-22, 16:48   Link #75
bayoab
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New waves of C&D letters are going out. What appears to be covered so far:
D.Gray-man (All - FUNi is the licensor).
Soul Eater (for MFI)
Eva Rebuild 1.0 (for NTV)
There are supposedly at least 5 more titles.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-11-22 at 19:08.
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Old 2008-11-22, 17:14   Link #76
Vexx
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I'm not totally horrified since I suspect there's a huge chance of Soul Eater being licensed and its had almost several dozen episodes put out ....

Quote:
Hi, Funimation -- Soul Eater's on my buy list because of fansubs thanks... simply never would have happened without the preview, ..... keep that in mind. Too bad I have to kind of "guess at the last half" to see if the whole series is worth it, unlike the japanese viewers...
Its when they C&D little niche series that just get left to rot on the vine that I get really cranky. Still have an armful of series in that state. So whats going to be the lag time.... a year? two?

Update: yeah... lots of torrents suddenly have gone missing :P

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-11-22 at 23:05.
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Old 2008-11-22, 22:32   Link #77
SeedFreedom
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Are they determined, stupid, or just trying to show they want to do anything about the problem. Thing is, this essentially changes nothing. In a few weeks anonymous fansubs will release and stream the series. This wont stop people. What crunchy and the makers of naruto did, will. They provide a legal form in a way they can make money, and the funsubbers respect them and shut down.
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