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Old 2008-11-22, 04:39   Link #81
Darknemo2000
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Well because he is not suffering and even seems to enjoy it makes me call him a massochist.

Normal person, being treated that way the way Taiga treats Ryuuuji would not be able to bare it for longer period of time.

Ami on the other hand even being two-faced and all is easy to speak and talk to even if she shows her more serious side (actually I like her other side more than the cute one). Too bad that Ryyuji prefers having his ass kicked around and being screamed at.
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Old 2008-11-22, 06:33   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Well because he is not suffering and even seems to enjoy it makes me call him a massochist.

Normal person, being treated that way the way Taiga treats Ryuuuji would not be able to bare it for longer period of time.

Ami on the other hand even being two-faced and all is easy to speak and talk to even if she shows her more serious side (actually I like her other side more than the cute one). Too bad that Ryyuji prefers having his ass kicked around and being screamed at.
Oh, right, the fact that he isn't suffering WOULD make part of the defintion of masochist true, but him enjoying it? Give me at least one example where he gives any indication that he likes being called a dog or taking physical abuse. And I don't constitute NOT doing anything when Taiga does those things 'like'. Liking something and accepting it are two different things(i.e. a slave getting whipped for doing something wrong, he don't like it, but accepts punishment cuz if he don't the slavemaster/leader will kill him). And to give two examples where he don't like it is ep3's eye poke, after the restaurant where he flinches in fear, and ep7's running to school, where Taiga kicks him after being late, he says something like 'why are you doing this to me just because of food?".

You are right. A normal person probably couldn't stand that treatment. But none of the main chars are actually 'normal' people, perhaps except Kitamura. On top of that, Ryuuji admired the strength it took for Taiga to confess to Kitamura, and he was impressed by that(amongst other things). Seeing that Kitamura is doing the exact same thing by helping Sumire, I wouldn't say it's something that isn't normal here.

Easy to speak to? It looks like Ryuuji is having a hard time trying to understand whether Ami is serious or not, so from a psychological perspective, its not 'easy'. Granted, he needs time to understand her inner thoughts and her mannerisms, but since he couldn't tell if she was serious or not, he still has a ways to go. But once he understands Ami like he understands Taiga, it wont matter what she does. He'll more or less understand the underlying meaning in her words and their 'relationship' will progress. Hope that happens soon, then the drama will really start rollin'.
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Old 2008-11-22, 12:51   Link #83
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i second that.

Ryuuji definitely hates being abused, even though he more or less have to, because i understand how imperfect people have to double the effort in order to get friends , and this is certainly in the case of Ryujii. afterall, even though people knows that he isnt really a delinquent, he only has a small group of real friends.

noto and haruta? they only seem like abusing Ryuji for me (using ryuji to skip afterclass cleaning, using ryuji to "fill-in-numbers" to meet girls. i dont think them as real friends really.

masochists are something like this

http://www.onemanga.com/Zero_no_Tsukaima/12/30/

and ryuji does nothing of that sort definitely
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Old 2008-11-23, 00:38   Link #84
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When Ryuuji is with Taiga, he's like the battered wife who after getting beat up worries about whether the abusive spouse had enough to eat for dinner. Up to this point in the story, when has Ryuuji really stood up to Taiga?

Saito may be a goofball and an idiot, but he at least stands up to Louise once in a while. And at least he gets some really deredere make out sessions as a reward for putting up with her violence.

Ryuuji's interactions with Ami are so much better because he comes off as a strong figure. He doesn't get suckered by her sweet act and he's not afraid to knock her down a peg here and there.
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Old 2008-11-23, 01:49   Link #85
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Ryuuji always scolds and lectures Taiga, I don't see where people are getting all of this from... He doesn't take it laying like a btch.
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Old 2008-11-23, 02:13   Link #86
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Agree... Ryuuji never bows down to Taiga... he responds verbally every time Taiga communicates in her broken way. He just doesn't blow up -- why blowup when you're dealing with a patient who's in a lot of internal conflict? Like his mom says, she has trouble saying what she really means and she isn't handling her emotions well.

He's not thrilled with Ami either and lets her know it when she gameplays with her tools but she's also broken so he just lectures and scolds like he does with Taiga.

He's really being a mature father model in this show in many respects.

Obviously, people are going to pick up the clues they're able to or want to. Heck, that's what most of the class does - they label the characters and stop looking for anything deeper or more subtle clues.
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Old 2008-11-23, 05:48   Link #87
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satuross, ahh my eyes. Don't show that ugly manga again. Its enough they made an anime a parody of novels, yet they just had to make even the manga into a fugly manga where characters do not look above 7.

It is already a proved fact that Saito is an idiot, but at least he gets Louise deredere sides if he puts up with her tsuntsun. Heck you know WHAT happens in the novel 9 of ZnT. For such thing it is worth to put up with her tsuntsun.

Ryuuji gets from Taiga only tsuntsun while her derdere moments are never directed towards him as a person (maybe except for the last poll scene). And yet he still puts up with her and enjoys there time together (his smile and do on) even if 99% of that are tsuntsun towards him. She is like on a constant PMS. No normal person could put up with that for longer period of time or even enjoy such horrible relationship where one just takes and the other constantly gives without getting anything back.

He either has to be in love, dumb (which is practically the same as being in love anyway) or have some fetish for the horrible treatment he is constantly getting.

Heck even Shinji got tired of Asuka from time to time. But Ryuuji he just swallows it all down, sure he complaints, but he never gives those complaints, scoldings any meaning, nor does Taiga listen to them at all. His complaints/lectures do not show that he has the courage - they just show how pathetically weak he is against Taiga.
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Old 2008-11-23, 06:08   Link #88
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I really don't see where Ryuuji stands up to Taiga. The typical scenerio goes like: she screams incoherently at him, he says "hey you really shouldn't scream at me, you know", she screams some more, then he's worried because she's not coming to dinner. He's a complete pushover. Taiga misses dinner one night and he worries himself sick over it. He even comments to himself on several occassions that he just can't leave her alone because she's so helpless on her own. No matter what kind of crazy abuse she piles on him, he will always be back there packing her bento the next day.

edit:

Quote:
He's really being a mature father model in this show in many respects.
I see it as a father who threatens to call a "time out" if the kid keeps throwing tantrums and then never goes through with actually doing it. Their relationship really is like a parent and a child, but the parent never actually punishes the child for anything, which I think is unhealthy and wrong.

Last edited by Oxtail; 2008-11-23 at 06:26.
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:09   Link #89
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hoho, please dont blame me. the only reason i came across it is because of the ever-so-often combination of

super boring weekend night in warwick + onemanga just release boring chapters



anyways we must remember ryuji isnt super human (its a slice of life afterall)

im pretty sure ryuuji fighting off taiga with words is at least as strong as saito fighting back to louise. afterall, the rest of 2-C arent even able to START a conversation with taiga.
for me, that feat could already be considered amazing and shows ryuji doesnt really swallow all of it happily.

thats just my opinion though. currently my life is whittering by playing touhou
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:31   Link #90
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People do crazy things when they're close/in love. Ryuuji puts up with Taiga because he wants to. And he doesn't let her walk over him, he scolds and lectures her and becomes angry at her too. He's just not as aggrassive as Taiga (who has trouble expressing her emotions), so he uses words instead of fist.

If you don't think you'd put up with her, then so be it. But Ryuuji does for some reason. He doesn't like being hit and stuff like that, but he wants to be with her anyways. He cares about her and wants to make sure she's alright. This shows all the more how he feels about her.

And since Taiga keeps coming back to him every time as well, and slowly begins to show more of her deredere side to him (which she has locked deep within herself), she seems to feel the same way. There is a bond of trust between the two, since they show each other their weak sides and tell each other almost everything. Hopefully she'll learn how to control her emotions better in the future, maybe Ryuuji and her friends will be able to help her with this.

My own mother is more tsun than dere to my father as well. And although she doesn't hit him (she voices her aggression and complaints) it is basically the same. Keep in mind that Ryuuji and Taiga aren't real people, they're fictional. The hitting tsuntsun parts are put in to make the novel more interesting/funny, but the concept is the same as real life tsunderes.

Anyways, this isn't the right topic for such a discussion, let's just get back to discuss Ami's character now.
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:37   Link #91
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She sounds like an old lady when she grunts . She's only grunted twice(after bag hit her in ep 7, and when Taiga tricked her in ep 8), but it's so funny to me when she does. Just doesnt sound like something that would come out of a cute Ami-tan.
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Old 2008-11-23, 10:10   Link #92
satuross
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isnt that the point?

the whole "real personality" doesnt work well with "ami-tan"

so it isnt really surprising if she grunts like a grandma / frowns /growls and stuff like that
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Old 2008-11-27, 21:19   Link #93
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Needs moar Ami.
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Old 2008-11-28, 06:26   Link #94
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I believe Ami is a girl with typical trust and commitment issues, and despite her flirty behavior, is probably more conservative in her idea of a relationship. Meaning she's a prude if it's serious, but flirty if there isn't any important commitments.

She can't rely on people to associate with her postively unless it's her constructed self-image of her ideal persona.

She probably assumes men are only out to get her for her looks and many must be possessive perverts.

Having a stalker can badly mold a person's expectations of people. In this case, guys.

Though Kitamura gets a pass since he's a known quantity, and the connection between the two is probably more along the brother/sister line due to shared childhood. Kinda where Ryuuji and Taiga are at right now, familiarity but no romance.

When she first sees Ryuuji, she at least knows he associates with her child hood friend and a simple hurdle is made there. Expectation is he probably isn't terrible. So she assumes her fake persona and is even a bit flirty with Ryuuji, who acts a bit passive but is clearly flattered, maybe interested in her. She underestimates Taiga when they're alone and drops her persona and vents, acting in a rude manner, and probably actually being serious in toying with the idea of dating Ryuuji but in a uncommitted manner. Taiga calls her out on it with a slap.

Right there she gets Taiga as a nemesis and thinks Ryuuji can be a tool to act as a strike against Taiga. Luckily for Ryuuji, Kitamura warns him about Ami's bad side and even witnesses the scene. From there on, he brushes off Ami's advances.

At this point, Ami might find this a bit peculiar. I suppose she thinks Ryuuji is a bit shy for now, but will surely act like any despicable guy. The act continues on, but Ryuuji is now starting to not look the negative expectation she has of guys.

This resets her assumption of Ryuuji from being, just another guy from her POV, to having to reasses and take a testing, cautious approach with him to figure him out.

I feel like skipping all the details from there on, but in general, everytime I see her make a flirtatious pass at Ryuuji, I get the feeling she's "testing the waters" to see if he's genuinely a stand up good guy or not with these improper advances. From her POV, surely no guy can be that virtuous and TRUSTWORTHY.

Everytime he says no, she wants to know how much further he will stand, and all the while her not so serious idea of getting together with Ryuuji to act as a blow to Taiga is all the more appealing, maybe getting serious.

It's also important that occasionally when they are alone Ryuuji gets serious with her on trying to improve herself by not being so deceptive. Ami probably would love to not have to fret on putting on a fake act for once, but its an old habit, but hearing this is just encouraging if she's looking for someone who's sincere and genuine.

Her direction for character development is going to be trying to be herself, but before she can do that, she has to develop trust with others. Ryuuji happens to be a honorable and trustworthy guy, but it'll take time for her to settle on it.
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Old 2008-11-28, 07:08   Link #95
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I kinda like how Ami slowly fits in with the group. Her reaction:

Spoiler for Episode 09:
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Old 2008-11-28, 07:14   Link #96
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There is a possibility Kitamura may have something similar with Ami here.

He's a nice, upstanding guy, energetic, very social, and encourages his friends a lot. This is just a plain dumb move/mistake.

This couldn't have been a slip of judgement on his part, unless he's totally gay for Ryuuji. He might be taking advantage of his reputation so he can be pardoned for this obvious foul up.
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Old 2008-11-29, 11:37   Link #97
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There is a possibility Kitamura may have something similar with Ami here.

He's a nice, upstanding guy, energetic, very social, and encourages his friends a lot. This is just a plain dumb move/mistake.

This couldn't have been a slip of judgement on his part, unless he's totally gay for Ryuuji. He might be taking advantage of his reputation so he can be pardoned for this obvious foul up.
Why couldn't the situation between Kitamura and Ami be as simple as the fact that Kitamura isn't interested in her romantically or sexually and only wants to remain her friend? Not every heterosexual man chases after every heterosexual woman he knows. Men can be just as discriminating in their romantic partner choices as women can be.
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Old 2008-11-29, 11:43   Link #98
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Not every heterosexual man chases after every heterosexual woman he knows. Men can be just as discriminating in their romantic partner choices as women can be.
QFT.
That's exactly how I view the situation, as well.
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Old 2008-11-29, 15:03   Link #99
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Its a romantic comedy. People tend to see romantic relationships that aren't nessecarily there.
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Old 2008-11-29, 16:02   Link #100
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Its a romantic comedy. People tend to see romantic relationships that aren't nessecarily there.
Well people tend to project themselves into the show, moreso romantic genre.
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