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Old 2008-11-25, 08:59   Link #1001
LeoXiao
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
I'm 16. That probably explains a lot. I'm not of any particular religion but belief in higher order and divinity is important to me.
Quote:
A girlfriend is usually the stage between 'friends' and 'wife' (short of arranged marriages), so don't think of having one as some kind of trivial, flimsy thing.
Hmm... well here at school "girlfriend/boyfriend" is defined as "trivial, flimsy thing." I guess that from what you are saying I would be okay with a girlfriend (your definition), because "trivial and flimsy" is what I was thinking of when I posted.

Quote:
A girlfriend is (or in most cases) your best friend.
A girlfriend can ground you.
A girlfriend can compliment you (in similar ways or oppisite ways)
A girlfriend can support you.
A girlfriend can be your strength as you are hers (keep it two way)
That sounds like someone who I would be content with in marriage. In that case the application of my definition of girlfriend doesn't work anymore.
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Old 2008-11-25, 09:49   Link #1002
Mashda2k6
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Ok I thought I'd ask you guys about my problem...


So there is this girl that I have a long history with...like the whole elementary school part we've "loved" eachother, if you can call it that. When 7th grade started we were in the same school and she asked if I loved her and my msn and stuff so then we started "dating" if that's what you can call it, again. After a while we broke of mainly because of my stupidity, ignorance and immatureness, I realized this later on though. Again on 8th grade I asked her out and then we started dating again but yet again after a while we broke up, though I was the same as I was at 7th grade but this time she had a crush on another guy and said we couldn't date anymore. Now then at 9th grade we we're just friends and stuff, not really talking IRL but MSN, anyhow her best friend who she's neighbour and best friends like 10 yrs annoyed me by 'kind of' talking shit behind my back about me so I blocked her on MSN. Afterwards the girl I had dated twice with blocked me. So that's the history, now to the "problem".


So after that I haven't talked to either of them, no contact or anything, atm I'm first grade of high school(16yrs old) and the girl I used to date went to another school. Just by coincidence I happened to see her on bus like three times on the same week and now I have strangely started to think about her much, at nights I've been like one hour trying to sleep but just thinking about her.

So this is what I wanted to ask: does this mean I have a new crush on her or smth? Or do I just want to be her friend and talk to her again or is this just temporary matter I'm experiencing? Or now that I've realized my past mistakes, I want to show my better side? Or perhaps something else?


thanks in advance
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Old 2008-11-25, 09:58   Link #1003
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Hmm, mind answering me a few questions?

1: Your age (or age range, like 18-20, 21-23 etc)
2: Your religion (if you do have faith)

I should dig a few posts back on Ledgem's posts on how dating can help with finding the person who's right for you.
It's not simply just to have a good time with someone else, but you also learn about what you can and cannot tolerate with girls through different experiences.
As with most things in life, experiences good and bad build character to a person. They have more information to base choices on (though the experiences alone shouldn't totally set future decisions).
Which is what you seem to be doing sadly; just cause of what you've seen with your friend, you've ended up with some kinda jaded, negative outlook to it while you've never had a girlfriend (or you've simply tuned yourself out from it, because of what you "think" will happen).
You're selling yourself short basically for the girl you'd like to marry someday, but this is why i asked the two first questions, as i shouldn't assume everyone lives in a 'western' sense of free dating in their teens or early 20's until they find the special person in time.

A girlfriend != (does not equal) someone to mess with for 2-6 months.

A girlfriend is (or in most cases) your best friend.
A girlfriend can ground you.
A girlfriend can compliment you (in similar ways or oppisite ways)
A girlfriend can support you.
A girlfriend can be your strength as you are hers (keep it two way)

A girlfriend is usually the stage between 'friends' and 'wife' (short of arranged marriages), so don't think of having one as some kind of trivial, flimsy thing.

How a relationship is defined rests on the individuals for most part. If you both share a similar set of ideas and desires and goals concerning relationships, you'll both work hard for it to be fufilled that way, rather than adapting to "typical" relationships that you may see around you.

Like most things is life "An experience is what you make of it".
I would say a girlfriend can't do any of that because such a relationship is too volatile in nature. The couple isnt't dedicated enough to each other to get married, yet somehow still want the benefits of such a relationship. Odds are, what will happen is that the relationship will calm down as all relationships do, but the couple won't have children to solidify their relationship.
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Old 2008-11-25, 10:29   Link #1004
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I'm 16. That probably explains a lot. I'm not of any particular religion but belief in higher order and divinity is important to me.
Hmm... well here at school "girlfriend/boyfriend" is defined as "trivial, flimsy thing." I guess that from what you are saying I would be okay with a girlfriend (your definition), because "trivial and flimsy" is what I was thinking of when I posted.
At sweet 16, it probably is. (This is why I asked how old you were)
6 years ago you were 10, 6 years later you'll be 22.
You're only just about beginning to live life, so there's plenty to see and explore that doesn't concern girlfriends.
I guess during teenage time, relationships will be trivial because everyone is going through volatile periods of their lives and their own sense of character. It's easy to get jaded, but don't permantly close your eyes to it all, there may be a special someone who'll grace your path in some years to come
Quote:
That sounds like someone who I would be content with in marriage. In that case the application of my definition of girlfriend doesn't work anymore.
A "Girlfriend" isn't simply defined to what you see around you. Just keep that in mind that as you get older and people mature, relationships of all kinds take on a different aspect and nature.
If at the present moment it all seems yucky, then at least have some hope for the future.
But you're too young to be so bitter, live a little and remain positive
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Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I would say a girlfriend can't do any of that because such a relationship is too volatile in nature. The couple isnt't dedicated enough to each other to get married, yet somehow still want the benefits of such a relationship. Odds are, what will happen is that the relationship will calm down as all relationships do, but the couple won't have children to solidify their relationship.
If you mean at the age that leoxiao is at, then perhaps so.
If you mean generally for people in their mid-20's or higher then I disagree.
A girlfriend can do those things as much as a boyfriend can do those things for her, that term isn't limited to people aged 21 or under.
Also, some may already enter another relationship with a child from a previous relationship and find that the person they are attracted to suits them well for companionship. They can't be classified as friends, if the couple act on feelings and physical attraction, thus they become boyfriend/girlfriend.

There are too many variables to define relationships concerning various ages and cultures, but the examples i gave before are of a 'best case' senario. If you're with somone who is those things, then you're blessed and yes, relationships do settle down and you find you're with this person near 24/7 for 5, 10, 15 years.
You need to at least enjoy each others company on a friendship level as well as a partner level, I'd think
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Old 2008-11-25, 10:38   Link #1005
harmonious
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
If you mean at the age that leoxiao is at, then perhaps so.
If you mean generally for people in their mid-20's or higher then I disagree.
A girlfriend can do those things as much as a boyfriend can do those things for her, that term isn't limited to people aged 21 or under.
Also, some may already enter another relationship with a child from a previous relationship and find that the person they are attracted to suits them well for companionship. They can't be classified as friends, if the couple act on feelings and physical attraction, thus they become boyfriend/girlfriend.

There are too many variables to define relationships concerning various ages and cultures, but the examples i gave before are of a 'best case' senario. If you're with somone who is those things, then you're blessed and yes, relationships do settle down and you find you're with this person near 24/7 for 5, 10, 15 years.
You need to at least enjoy each others company on a friendship level as well as a partner level, I'd think
Sure, you can do it, but such relationships are doomed to fail no matter the age of the couple. The idea of such a relationship is inherently flawed because of a lack of dedication. Both marriage and children are anchors for relationships and both need to come early for the relationship to be cemented. To have neither for a long period of time is showing a lack of dedication and the relationship will become strained or the couple will drift apart.
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Old 2008-11-25, 10:59   Link #1006
Mystique
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Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
Sure, you can do it, but such relationships are doomed to fail no matter the age of the couple. The idea of such a relationship is inherently flawed because of a lack of dedication. Both marriage and children are anchors for relationships and both need to come early for the relationship to be cemented. To have neither for a long period of time is showing a lack of dedication and the relationship will become strained or the couple will drift apart.
Marriage and children are not anchors for relationships, you gotta be kidding with the amount of single mothers i see and have grown up with in my town.
My view will be jaded, but with the amount of divorce rates and the temptation of 'extra marital affairs', kids and marriage sincerely do not hold the weight they used to let's say 50 years back.
Couples or a person in an 'unloved' marriage is most likely to stray simply to fufill their own happiness and restore faith back in themselves.
Whereas on the flipside, i know people who are in relationships for years, i know the basis and chemistry they're founding it on and why they work well together. A lot of those factors are from those examples I gave and believe me they are devoted to each other. They do hope to settle down in time with the kids and marriage, but it's not a present issue for them at the moment.

Kids and marriage require a good financial basis (on the best of cases), something a couple would prefer to work for and simply enjoy their time and lives living as a couple and not parents.
Not being married or not having kids, doesn't mean lack of dedication to each other at all. Rather it gives them more time to focus on each other.
The marriage aspect is the icing on the cake, it seals the relationship and the couple have to work to keep their promises to each other, but hell nowadays after 2-3 years, that seems so weak, you begin to hear of people drifting apart regardless.
Some people (those who are less religious than me) only see marriage as an official ceremony to declare what they are already experiencing (a stable relationship) and don't feel like spending the money for it.
Some women don't wanna have kids (as shocking as it may sound) but are fully devoted to the man they love.
It depends, but somehow if a person is truly unhappy and feels 'trapped' with the marriage and the kids, I doubt that'd stop someone from seeking happiness elsewhere in secret if they really wanted to.
The relationship may still exist and be "cemented" for many years because of the ties, but it'd be based on lies and deceit and more lies.

At least on that aspect, I'll be disagreeing with ya.
Pardon my mini tangent-ness, i guess this is about dating more than the nature of relationships...
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Old 2008-11-25, 13:15   Link #1007
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Marriage and children are not anchors for relationships, you gotta be kidding with the amount of single mothers i see and have grown up with in my town.
Single mothers are having children outside of serious relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
My view will be jaded, but with the amount of divorce rates and the temptation of 'extra marital affairs', kids and marriage sincerely do not hold the weight they used to let's say 50 years back.

Couples or a person in an 'unloved' marriage is most likely to stray simply to fufill their own happiness and restore faith back in themselves.
Whereas on the flipside, i know people who are in relationships for years, i know the basis and chemistry they're founding it on and why they work well together. A lot of those factors are from those examples I gave and believe me they are devoted to each other. They do hope to settle down in time with the kids and marriage, but it's not a present issue for them at the moment.
Divorce rates are what they are do to how current Western society views relationships. Premarital sex, promiscuity, dating, etc, are all part of this. Feminists call it women's sexual liberation, men consider it normal, but it all is the same disease. Long term relationships are no longer respected or really understood.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Kids and marriage require a good financial basis (on the best of cases), something a couple would prefer to work for and simply enjoy their time and lives living as a couple and not parents.
What is or isn't a "good financial basis" is an opinion, and often simply an excuse. Your right, people want to selfishly live on as they do without regard for anything. Even if what they so thoroughly reject or put off, is actually an advantage to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Not being married or not having kids, doesn't mean lack of dedication to each other at all. Rather it gives them more time to focus on each other.
Yes, it is. Marriage or having kids doesn't mean they can't focus on each other. In fact, not getting married is the antithesis of focusing on each other. People are generally selfish creatures, this includes relationships. They aren't not getting married because they want to focus on each other, they are not getting married because they are focusing on themselves. They view the relationship selfishly, as a benefit for themselves alone. Without being married and kids, it is easy for them to simply escape the relationship. They know this, be it consciously or unconsciously.
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Old 2008-11-25, 18:11   Link #1008
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
Divorce rates are what they are do to how current Western society views relationships. Premarital sex, promiscuity, dating, etc, are all part of this. Feminists call it women's sexual liberation, men consider it normal, but it all is the same disease. Long term relationships are no longer respected or really understood.
Oh, just a word about that, I fully agree with you, and I am not a religious person (again I say that because too many people assume that only religious people dislike what the society call "sexual liberation"). But I have still hope that good relationship "from my point of view" still exist. I know at least one couple of my generation. She is 21, he is 25. They married and had a baby recently. What is funny, is that many people criticize them. That "nowadays" it's bad to get married so early in their life, and some people even criticized them because they did a baby. But in fact, what I see, but maybe I'm wrong, is a lot of jaelous people. They are jaelous of their happiness.

I also believe that unbreakable marriages still exist. It's rare but not impossible. And i hope that my friends will have that kind of marriage.

Personally, I don't see relationships as just experiences that you can do one after another "for the fun of it", for me it sounds too much like a game. I don't think that Love is something just funny. But maybe I am wrong to think like that, but anyway, I truly believe in that. And the couple I was talking baout also believe in that. I just hope that someday, I will have a happy life in couple, just like them
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Old 2008-11-25, 19:05   Link #1009
Mystique
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Spoilered for you harmonious.
Seeing as I've a weakness for resisting, lol. If we're gonna continue, I'll bug ya on your public message board on your profile from now on so we can leave this thread be.
(wonder if we can quote on there....)
Spoiler for Spoilered for length and slight tangent-ness of topic:


If a person wants to seek comfort in the arms of someone else, most times they'll do it whether their married or not. The only thing with kids and marriage is it'll be done in secret.
If a couple want to remain devoted and true to each other, it'll be done whether they're married, got kids or haven't got either.

@ Narona
I did relate to the quote you mentioned above regarding feminism and stuff. And yes, while you're right that some of us think settling down around 21 or so feels 'too early' is because for most of us it is.
A majority of men and women at 21 would be full time students at uni or college, trying to work hard for their careers and dreams or working full time and simply enjoying their own company and desires.
Naturally some people's dreams involve simply having a family to look after and making that priority number one.
For others, that priority is to come later in life as there's always that 'what if' factor that sometimes niggles people once they have responsibilities of being parents, wives/husbands and have a morgage to pay.
It's not to say those who express surprise at people settling down in their early 20's are bitter or jealous, at least for me, i wish them well if they can be together happily for decades to come.
I am a feminist, not the bra-bashing, male hating kind (they annoy me), but the kind who can look back at history over the last 300-400 years, then look at the 70's, then look at the choices I've been blessed with as a young female raised in the UK and can't help but be thankful and use as many opportunities as possible.
If that means setting kids and family aside for now, so be it and I think many others feels the same way too, but I don't see it a disease as harmonious stated.
The extreme flipside to the sexual and social liberation of women is that, in some other parts of the world, women are seen as merely a means to be sold into prostitution, or they're burdens cause they need dowrys and a good husband who'll be able to support her family too.
Or they're merely beaten or killed for wanting to learn to read, for educating women about their bodies, for trying to build self esteem and inspire other small goals outside of being a mother and a wife.
For many many (perhaps the majority still) they don't even have a choice.

Again, narona if we're to continue, let me bug ya on your profile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashda2k6 View Post
So this is what I wanted to ask: does this mean I have a new crush on her or smth? Or do I just want to be her friend and talk to her again or is this just temporary matter I'm experiencing? Or now that I've realized my past mistakes, I want to show my better side? Or perhaps something else?
thanks in advance
For those outside of the US or Finland grade system, mind adding ages to your post?
I assume you were like 10 years old or 11 or so when it started, since you're 16 now.
For most part, it's probably just nostalgia you're experiencing rather than another crush since it's not like you've had a cup of tea and sat down and chatted to her for a while, so you gain a sense of how you've both grown up.
That and she was one of the first peeps you had feelings for, so those are usually the strongest, maybe it's just that aspect which is bothering you at the moment.
You've already dated and split and dated again and split, perhaps it's best to leave it be and focus on the future, rather than the past.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-11-25 at 19:35.
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Old 2008-11-25, 21:06   Link #1010
BOOKGLUTTON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashda2k6 View Post
Ok I thought I'd ask you guys about my problem...


So there is this girl that I have a long history with...like the whole elementary school part we've "loved" eachother, if you can call it that. When 7th grade started we were in the same school and she asked if I loved her and my msn and stuff so then we started "dating" if that's what you can call it, again. After a while we broke of mainly because of my stupidity, ignorance and immatureness, I realized this later on though. Again on 8th grade I asked her out and then we started dating again but yet again after a while we broke up, though I was the same as I was at 7th grade but this time she had a crush on another guy and said we couldn't date anymore. Now then at 9th grade we we're just friends and stuff, not really talking IRL but MSN, anyhow her best friend who she's neighbour and best friends like 10 yrs annoyed me by 'kind of' talking shit behind my back about me so I blocked her on MSN. Afterwards the girl I had dated twice with blocked me. So that's the history, now to the "problem".


So after that I haven't talked to either of them, no contact or anything, atm I'm first grade of high school(16yrs old) and the girl I used to date went to another school. Just by coincidence I happened to see her on bus like three times on the same week and now I have strangely started to think about her much, at nights I've been like one hour trying to sleep but just thinking about her.

So this is what I wanted to ask: does this mean I have a new crush on her or smth? Or do I just want to be her friend and talk to her again or is this just temporary matter I'm experiencing? Or now that I've realized my past mistakes, I want to show my better side? Or perhaps something else?


thanks in advance
I'm gonna just give you a bit of advice, don't rekindle old relationships. You have no idea what she's been thinking about you all this time. For all you know, she may have harbored rage against you (plus she broke up with you right? For all you know she could be dating)
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Old 2008-11-25, 21:48   Link #1011
Narona
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
@ Narona
A majority of men and women at 21 would be full time students at uni or college, trying to work hard for their careers and dreams or working full time and simply enjoying their own company and desires.
What I am also trying to say since the last time that I talked to you is that I don't think a person has to have lived a lot of relationship to became a good partner (not married), wife, or husband (if they get married). My mother had only one man in her life and did great imo, as a partner, a lover, a mother, and wife. My friend I was talking about had only one man in her life (her current husband who is also a friend of mine), and she's doing great in her couple and is happy. And I don't think they are so special. On the complete opposite side, a person could have been in 50 relationships and ends alone and bitter of those 50 relationships

As my teacher of philosophy would say, each person seeks happiness, whatever the path, and sometimes the path that the majority takes is not inevitaly the good one for all the people.

Now about the current society, I just point what I see around me. Not a lot of people are "happy" and I don't think they are more happy than the youngers from 30 years ago. Actually I see a lot of people bitter about many things. About Love, bitter about old relationships and stuffs. And sometimes, even sad persons that think that they should not have done some things when they were in their teens. But done it because of medias pressure, friends pressure etc.

Each person lives the life they want and makes choices. I just said that from my point of view, the path I chose is the good one. Maybe I am wrong, but nothing tells me that the other people could not be wrong. So each person think they are right (most of the time) and defend their point of view. I think I already said everything about what I think in my previous posts and PMs

Quote:
It's not to say those who express surprise at people settling down in their early 20's are bitter or jealous, at least for me, i wish them well if they can be together happily for decades to come.
Since apparently i was not clear enough, It was not "expressing surprise", it was bashing.


Quote:
I've been blessed with as a young female raised in the UK and can't help but be thankful and use as many opportunities as possible.
Same here but the difference is that even if I saw many opportunities (i don't see that as opportunities but whatever), from my point of view, some are not good and I make the choice to not experience them. That's also one great thing of our generation, "to have the choice to do something", but also "the choice to say No".

And despite that I rejected those opportunities, I am not less happy than the ones who did the opposite. My point was also that. You don't need to be a sheep and do something because 90% of people do it. At least, nothing proved me that I am less happy than them.


Quote:
The extreme flipside to the sexual and social liberation of women is that, in some other parts of the world, women are seen as merely a means to be sold into prostitution, or they're burdens cause they need dowrys and a good husband who'll be able to support her family too.
Or they're merely beaten or killed for wanting to learn to read, for educating women about their bodies, for trying to build self esteem and inspire other small goals outside of being a mother and a wife.
For many many (perhaps the majority still) they don't even have a choice.
I think you missed the point of what Harmonious was trying to say, but maybe I am wrong, so I prefer to let him reply. I think he didn't make a comparison with those women, nor I did.

Last edited by Narona; 2008-11-25 at 22:04.
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Old 2008-11-25, 22:26   Link #1012
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I think you missed the point of what Harmonious was trying to say, but maybe I am wrong, so I prefer to let him reply. I think he didn't make a comparison with those women, nor I did.
I used an 'extreme flipside' of the coin just to toss in another perspective on the negative aspects of a society that is totally oppisite to the one I grew up in, since Harmonious pointed out the negative aspects of social and sexual liberation of women in western societies rather strongly.
Quote:
Divorce rates are what they are do to how current Western society views relationships. Premarital sex, promiscuity, dating, etc, are all part of this. Feminists call it women's sexual liberation, men consider it normal, but it all is the same disease.
Let's just say it struck a chord, i could link to him a few websites that dispel that statement instantly and within my post i've already poised questions to him about unloved marriages and affairs and abusive homes that kids grow up in. While he's not wrong, there are two (or more) sides to each situation, so it's just me bringing that up to the surface, not that either one of you mentioned it before.

I'm not sure i'll go with dating being related to divorces and men have had the luxury of promiscuity or mistresses for centuries, the only difference now is women aren't stoned for it should they stray, (in the West) but it's still a horrible act to bestill on someone else no matter who does it.

The reason we got into this side of the debate was cause i personally don't see relationships without kids or marriages a sign that couples are any less devoted to each other than a couple who are married and do have kids.
There are many special relationships that exist on both sides and there are many terrible and tragic ones too.

The rest, yeah we already went over it some weeks ago, so I know your view already
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Old 2008-11-25, 22:47   Link #1013
Narona
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Let's just say it struck a chord, i could link to him a few websites that dispel that statement instantly
And I saw a few debates (very late in night, while those which say the opposite at are prime tiume but whatever <_<) here in France that point many wrong things. So, it depends on the point of view, I think, and how the studies are done. The result can differ. What I think, ultimately, is that each person has to make his/her own opinion.

The problem are medias pressure, friends pressure, society pressure, parents pressure. From both side, sometimes people do something not because they think they are right, but because they feel forced to do it. Even now, nothing has changed about that. And in France, I think that going against the current society is taboo. The books who promote the current situation are promoted, the ones who denounce some pressures never get the highlights from the magazines and debates. The debates that promote it are more often in prime time than the few others that are aired very late in night. A bit unfair if you ask me. To make a choice that will have a better chance to please you through the time, you have to be aware of the opinions from both sides, not only one

Quote:
The reason we got into this side of the debate was cause i personally don't see relationships without kids or marriages a sign that couples are any less devoted to each other than a couple who are married and do have kids.
There are many special relationships that exist on both sides and there are many terrible and tragic ones too.
That, I fully agree. I didn't see his post from that point of view. They are couple who are not married (because they don't want. And in France, more and more people prefer to use the PACS, rather than getting married. It would be hard to explain it if you don't know what it is. Can you read french? I could give you a wikipedia link), and some who don't have kids. Because they don't want, or because they can't (it happens, sadly, but it doesn't mean that it could inevitably destroy a couple.)

So yeah, what i said can work this way too. You can choose a different path and find happiness ^^. I hope I was not misuderstood the last time we talked. I express my feelings from my point of view, but I know that this is a matter of point of view. What is right in my eyes, could be seen as wrong in my neightbor eyes.
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Old 2008-11-26, 03:47   Link #1014
Edgewalker
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50 relationships and ends alone and bitter of those 50 relationships
This post has nothing to do with what you were saying, but your post reminded me of a bad experience I had one time back in my dreaded days of high school. I was assigned to work on a 2 person group project with one of the best looking girls ( probably top 5 ) in my school. All the other guys in class were stupidly jealous of me...but I couldn't care less. I didn't and still don't care about a girls looks that much. To me all women fall in to two categories:

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )

If you can't tell, I really don't put much weight on looks. Its either a pass or fail deal and after that its all personality. This is were the girl I was stuck with failed. Sure she was a nice person on the outside, but working with her was a nightmare...to make a long story short her kindness turned out to be a typical mask to hide her true immature self. She wanted me to do all the work because "I'm a hot chick and your a geek so you should worship me." it wasn't those exact words but it was basically what she said and summed up her mentality quite nicely. This ended with me giving in, pretending to do all the work ( in reality I went home and played Quake II ) and then purposely showing up in class without the project giving us both an F for the assignment ( I had an A+ in the class at the time anyways so I didn't give a shit ). Was it a bit immature of me to do that ? Yes, but the look on her face was priceless. I wouldn't have done it again any differently. If her parents/boyfriend wouldn't teach her that the world didn't owe her anything for being "Pretty" then someone needed to do it.

The point is, this is a person who had had at least 40 different boyfriends despite only being a Junior. Most relationships lasting only 3 weeks ~ 2 months. And yet, with all that experience behind her she never figured out that there is more to being with someone then just being attractive. Experience only means something if you are capable of realizing that the one consistent link in all your failures is yourself, and learn something from it. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you go out with 1 or 1000 different people, a moron is still a moron.
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Old 2008-11-26, 07:30   Link #1015
Mashda2k6
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thanks for the advices Mystique and BOOKGLUTTON. The nostalgia theory makes sense
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Old 2008-11-26, 23:10   Link #1016
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Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )
Hahaha, awesome. I'm the same way.
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Old 2008-11-27, 04:14   Link #1017
harmonious
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Not sure what you're getting at there, as basically my argument against your view is that kids and marriage are not anchors for relationships anymore.
When I mentioned single mothers, I'm talking about a good majority of teenage mums (hell even mums in their early 20's) - 1 night, contraception failed and accidental pregnancy occurs and suddenly the fathers are no where to be seen. They skedaddle.
Tell me how kids are an anchor when there are so many young single mothers? That's not to say their relationship wasn't serious (at least on one person's side)
Some men have admitted that they panic at the thought of the sudden responsibility and they feel they're too young, so they run.
You also say that it'd be good for marriage and children to happen earlier so it 'cements' the relationship, again if an individual isn't happy or feels too stressed, what's going to stop them from leaving the relationship?
What's gonna stop them from cheating?
I am saying that these single mothers are having sex and getting pregnant without being in a serious relationship. Yes, doing that risks having the father skedaddle. First you have to have a serious relationship for marriage and children to be an anchor.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Kids and marriage are ties, but they do not ensure a happy relationship between the adults and they do not secure a couple's total devotion to each other.
If the people are unhappy, those factors become burdens, the adults’ personalities become bitter or negative and kids grow up listening to arguments time and time again.
How is that better? How do domestic situations like that benefit anyone?
I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on that.
Very often cases of:
'we stayed together because of the kids. We gave it one more try. We thought having a baby would make things better' is often heard, but if the relationship between the adults is damaged, broken or lost, no other element will suddenly and magically make them more devoted to each other than a couple who are merely boyfriend and girlfriend for many years.
(And before I get a bunch of guys getting all defensive, do take into account that within debates, examples most times are not the be all and end all of things).
Here's another case for you in a non-western sense.
In Japan, many middle aged women are divorcing their husbands. They have been faithful wives and dutiful mothers, the kids have grown and left and they realise they have no ties to their husbands anymore. While the relationship was cemented, the devotion between the coupled died.
Where does that leave them?
This article is old, but the situation is still the same now.
BBC article on Japan divorce rates
Naturally, the couple needs to get to know each other. That doesn't mean hopping in the sack, or moving in. The idea of dating and boyfriends and girlfriends are modern social constructions. Modern social constructions which are poisonous with expectations. It is best to return to courtship and respect for oneself and one's partner. Even if that means one doesn't hop in the sack with their partner prior to to marriage. It isn't just a religious argument that premarital sex is somehow bad, but it psychologically diminishes its significance which removes one of the anchors in a relationship.

If say two people were virgins prior to marriage and before marriage they courted for however long. Then on the day of their marriage, when they believe they are ready for a long term commitment, they lose their virginity with the intention of having a child. I guarantee that couple is far more likely to last their entire lives than a couple who doesn't get married, moves in together, with premarital sex, with no oaths or dedication.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Is more or less what I said and what you quoted me on, I said that kids and marriage no longer hold the weight they used to 50 years ago, thus they are not anchors for a couple being devoted to each other.
I am talking in a Western sense, but from your sentence just there (and as I was thinking to myself last night) you're probably giving your opinion from a non-western sense, if you don't mind telling me where you were born and raised then I can see better where you're coming from with your belief
It isn't that children and marriage aren't anchors. It is that the weight that society and their liberal view towards relationships is too much for either to hold them down.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
To call it a disease isn't quite right. I'm born in a western society where my parents were born and raised in a diff society, thus I’ve grown up bi-cultural in a way. (Home and school were like two diff worlds) I can see the advantages and flaws of both.
While you may look down upon the liberal sense of Western societies, I look down and the same aspects (hence I said I was jaded and mentioned the divorce rates), but I appreciate it too at the same time, since the flipside of the other culture I was brought up in, doesn't have much respect for women or they are simply mothers rather than a wife.
I like the fact that I have the freedom and choice to pursue any career that I want or to be a full time mother if I wanted to and devote myself to my family, but I like that fact that I have a choice and the society that I was raised in offers more choice for women legally and financially than many other countries.
While men still hold most of the top positions in most companies, I sincerely appreciate that how far women have come in that aspect. Naturally there are bad sides to feminism (ladettes, lack of etiquette, lack of basic home skills, rise of female violence, etc)
But it's definitely not all bad and certainly not a disease.
Freedom is great. The problem isn't the freedom, but the morals of the society.

As for freedom for women to join the work force, great for them. The problem is the outside social pressure for them to work instead of becoming a homemaker. Feminism as they have called it didn't just come with liberty, but massive social change, pressure, and expectations.

I pity women in modern society for what has essentially been a hard press push to get women to choose work over family. To the benefit of big business, I might add. Working is one of the most stressful things in life and one of the least satisfying, especially when you don't have a family to work for. I think most mothers of the previous generation would say homemaking is hard work, but satisfying. I think Hollywood has glamorized the freedom of working for oneself and is responsible for a lot of malcontent people have in their relationship. A faux carrot is dangled in front of them every time they turn on the TV. It is the same with these mythical prince/princess true love relationships which were once apart of children tales, but have somehow become apart of every day entertainment. Homemakers are at home watching this poison every single day.

I would also point out that women joining the work force almost doubled the competition for jobs. It reduced the overall wages of everyone and is one of the key reasons why it takes two people working to support a family instead of just one. So women who would like to be a homemaker or have lots of children, are forced into the work force. This puts a major strain on the entire family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Like I said, with the examples of unloved marriages (which you've conveniently not quoted me on)
Kids and marriages are no longer the anchors they used to be. The ties that may bind you to a relationship become burdens, they become traps. In most cases since the kids aren't at fault, adults will mutually divorce to keep the mess to a minimum or the mothers will take the kids and live separately.
Humans are selfish regardless, hence why I mentioned extra-marital affairs. Divorces in the west are also taking on a different nature lately. They're seen as the means to dissolve the relationship on a legal basis (and to dissolve the tie to each other) but that's usually cause there is no tie between the couple anymore.
So they may remain 'friends' or just on a neutral level with each other for the sake of the kids, but the devotion to each other is gone.
They aren't getting married because they wanna focus on each other, which usually means in a couple sense, their devotion to each other is there. While marriage may not take that sense away, kids sometimes can.
Both mum and dad work, mum sorts out kids in the morning, they go to school, dad has left the home.
Both come home, kids are fed and bathed. Mum cleans up, sorts out lunch and clothes for kids the next day.
Kids go to bed, the couple have a few hours if that of chill time but need to sleep.
Next day, same story, rinse and repeat.
A couple can get caught up with family life and work that they forget to maintain the relationship between each other and that's usually the cause for it to weaken and breakdown over many years. Naturally not everyone is the same, but it seems to be a common factor over here.
Each society differs, naturally my views and opinions are mainly based on the UK, thus I'm simply stating what I’ve seen and heard and noticed in the last few decades.
The media question the same things here, those over 60 often tell me the same things at work, but that just seems to be the way society is progressing.
Kids and marriage no long hold the weight to anchor a stable, happy relationship for many many years, for reasons I've stated in last two posts of mine.
Marriage and having kids may not be heavy enough for everything society has put on the couple, but you cannot discount their weight. I guarantee you non-married couples break up at much greater rate.

The illnesses of modern Western society have put a strain on the psyche of everyone. All negative factors are up: stress, loneliness, divorce. I am not saying marriage and having children is some miracle cure, but it can help in an already burdened society.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-11-27 at 04:33.
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Old 2008-11-27, 08:50   Link #1018
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
This post has nothing to do with what you were saying, but your post reminded me of a bad experience I had one time back in my dreaded days of high school. I was assigned to work on a 2 person group project with one of the best looking girls ( probably top 5 ) in my school. All the other guys in class were stupidly jealous of me...but I couldn't care less. I didn't and still don't care about a girls looks that much. To me all women fall in to two categories:

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )

If you can't tell, I really don't put much weight on looks. Its either a pass or fail deal and after that its all personality. This is were the girl I was stuck with failed. Sure she was a nice person on the outside, but working with her was a nightmare...to make a long story short her kindness turned out to be a typical mask to hide her true immature self. She wanted me to do all the work because "I'm a hot chick and your a geek so you should worship me." it wasn't those exact words but it was basically what she said and summed up her mentality quite nicely. This ended with me giving in, pretending to do all the work ( in reality I went home and played Quake II ) and then purposely showing up in class without the project giving us both an F for the assignment ( I had an A+ in the class at the time anyways so I didn't give a shit ). Was it a bit immature of me to do that ? Yes, but the look on her face was priceless. I wouldn't have done it again any differently. If her parents/boyfriend wouldn't teach her that the world didn't owe her anything for being "Pretty" then someone needed to do it.

The point is, this is a person who had had at least 40 different boyfriends despite only being a Junior. Most relationships lasting only 3 weeks ~ 2 months. And yet, with all that experience behind her she never figured out that there is more to being with someone then just being attractive. Experience only means something if you are capable of realizing that the one consistent link in all your failures is yourself, and learn something from it. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you go out with 1 or 1000 different people, a moron is still a moron.
Yeah, it was , but the way you're telling it is funny (the part about Quake II ). Sorry, I laughed ^^""""

Well, that's true that some girls and boys like her exist ^^. They use their look as a tool. As if that would make them exceptional. Is it badto act like that? Some might say yes. You can be pleased by your body without having to use it as a mean to obtain what you desire.

On the opposite side, if a person goes out with a girl just because she is pretty (I mean, if he is just interested about her looks), i don't see how it could last long.

Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
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Old 2008-11-27, 12:39   Link #1019
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I've never had a girlfriend before. To me it seems like dating is a waste of time, not something that I would want to spend lots of time on. Why? Because the kind of conversations that couples often have are generally very boring. I have a friend who is good at getting into relationships but they invariably end up lasting no more than a couple months at best and he's always sorta depressed for a while afterward.

If I want to get into a romantic relationship with a girl I'll get married. And even if I do that she would have to be a good friend as well, not just a girlfriend (in the sense that you get involved with her and leave after two months).
You might be thinking the way that I do. I didn't date when I was 16 (high school years) because I knew that the chances of finding "the one" in my small school were slim, I knew that psychological and personality development was still likely to undergo major changes (which would mess with compatibility), and I knew that university and after would likely place me in a different path than the girl I was dating. It's a rough calculation that doesn't follow romanticism, but it was how I felt.

And there's nothing wrong with that way of thinking, but there has to be a threshold. In high school it was rare to find a relationship that wasn't superficial. People spent time together, kissed, and hugged, but it seemed more that they were going through the motions than that they really knew and cared for what they were doing. In the university setting and beyond you'll still find those superficial relationships, but you can't let your fear of those get in your way.

Like you, I wanted to cut through the garbage and date seriously. I wasn't in it for the game aspect of it, I was in it to find a life partner, someone I could share everything with and have everything shared back with in turn; a friend like no other, someone I could completely depend on. How do you find someone like that? There are no external cues, and any notion of a sixth sense alerting you to her (or him) is either a mental delusion or a hormonal kick in the pants. No, you need to find this person through reasoning and feeling, which means you need to get out there and start learning about people on a more intimate level. This is how you'll discover not only whether those people are right for you or not, but also what true compatibility is for you. You may think you know yourself well enough to be able to choose what traits are desirable and undesirable, but you can't know for sure until you've actually gone through the experience.

In short, you can date with the expectation and devotion that the person will be with you for life - but you should get out there. If you find a highly compatible person on the first try, great! If not, then it's a learning experience. Just because some people date for the sake of dating and "being with someone" that they really don't care about doesn't mean that you and others like you (and me) can't date sincerely. And if you find someone superficial who's only with you for the sake of being with someone, then you know what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I am saying that these single mothers are having sex and getting pregnant without being in a serious relationship. Yes, doing that risks having the father skedaddle. First you have to have a serious relationship for marriage and children to be an anchor.
You're overrating both marriage and children while underrating the aspect of "serious relationship." The problem is not promiscuity or sex out of wedlock. The problem is that people are not being devoted enough. It would be sheer ignorance to say that divorces only arise because people are being selfish. A truly dedicated relationship means that both parties are willing to compromise and sort out any problems that arise because they are dedicated to each other and the relationship between them. There seems to be a decay in people's willingness to work out relationship problems, and it seems to include the parent-child relationship (among others).

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
The idea of dating and boyfriends and girlfriends are modern social constructions. Modern social constructions which are poisonous with expectations. It is best to return to courtship and respect for oneself and one's partner. Even if that means one doesn't hop in the sack with their partner prior to to marriage. It isn't just a religious argument that premarital sex is somehow bad, but it psychologically diminishes its significance which removes one of the anchors in a relationship.
Dating is courtship. The problem is that not everyone dates because they're truly looking for a life partner. For some people it is socially unacceptable or socially poor to be single, and they feel the need to be in a relationship. It doesn't matter whether the relationship is meaningful or not, as long as they can claim someone as their girlfriend/boyfriend. Even in cultures where dating doesn't occur you will likely find similarities; where it is socially unacceptable to not be married, or to not have a child, or to not have given birth to a male. Superficialities in relationships and family settings are far from "modern social constructions."

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
If say two people were virgins prior to marriage and before marriage they courted for however long. Then on the day of their marriage, when they believe they are ready for a long term commitment, they lose their virginity with the intention of having a child. I guarantee that couple is far more likely to last their entire lives than a couple who doesn't get married, moves in together, with premarital sex, with no oaths or dedication.
Yeah, right. Here's a hypothetical situation for you: your two virgins-until-marriage start living happily, but then the wife hears from her girlfriends what great sex they're having and she realizes that her own husband is deficient. Now the wife's fidelity is vulnerable, because she's curious. She may even lack confidence in herself over a number of factors, simply because she's never experienced something else for herself.

I am not saying that the experience of premarital sex or massive dating is necessary. The point is that if someone wants to be a virgin until they're married, or if they really want to be in a life-long relationship, that's fine. It's perfectly possible to do those things without feeling remorseful or unconfident about yourself and your decision. However, you must make the decision yourself and know why you made it. If you're doing it just because it matches someone else's expectation then it's doomed to failure. I believe that the superficial dating and relationships that we've both cited are offshoots of that: people know that a boy and a girl (and soon, a boy and a boy or a girl and a girl) who harbor even slight attraction to one another can enter a relationship, and that society tends to fawn over relationships. Thus, without recognizing what they want from a relationship or what a relationship truly means, they enter into it. There's the disaster that you're citing, and it isn't limited to casual dating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
As for freedom for women to join the work force, great for them. The problem is the outside social pressure for them to work instead of becoming a homemaker. Feminism as they have called it didn't just come with liberty, but massive social change, pressure, and expectations.

I pity women in modern society for what has essentially been a hard press push to get women to choose work over family. To the benefit of big business, I might add. Working is one of the most stressful things in life and one of the least satisfying, especially when you don't have a family to work for. I think most mothers of the previous generation would say homemaking is hard work, but satisfying. I think Hollywood has glamorized the freedom of working for oneself and is responsible for a lot of malcontent people have in their relationship. A faux carrot is dangled in front of them every time they turn on the TV. It is the same with these mythical prince/princess true love relationships which were once apart of children tales, but have somehow become apart of every day entertainment. Homemakers are at home watching this poison every single day.
This is your judgement. Not everyone is content to be a homemaker; not everyone finds work stressful. To me, the only thing that empowering women has changed is that they won't stand for garbage behavior from men as much. Why are divorce rates so high? Women aren't quite as willing to put up with poor behavior from a spouse. They know that they can make it on their own; an abusive or semi-abusive spouse is nothing more than a parasite on their life.

Perhaps many men either haven't caught on or were always doomed to be poor compromisers, negotiators, and diplomats. Even the most highly compatible couple needs diplomacy from both people involved to keep the relationship happy and healthy. I think you're incorrectly identifying the factor that is to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I would also point out that women joining the work force almost doubled the competition for jobs. It reduced the overall wages of everyone and is one of the key reasons why it takes two people working to support a family instead of just one. So women who would like to be a homemaker or have lots of children, are forced into the work force. This puts a major strain on the entire family.
Pardon me, but I believe that overall wages have been increasing. Very few women are "forced" to work. They aspire to more, both for themselves and for their children. They do not want to be reliant on a single man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
The illnesses of modern Western society have put a strain on the psyche of everyone. All negative factors are up: stress, loneliness, divorce. I am not saying marriage and having children is some miracle cure, but it can help in an already burdened society.
"Illness of modern Western society" sums up your views nicely and reveals your bias. As I said, look through other societies and you'll find many similar pressures, although the exact factors may be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
Many pretty girls do have a brain and are intelligent. The trouble is that when they're very pretty they're treated differently by those around them. In many ways they're indoctrinated into a sub-society where pretty girls are the norm and not one of them is valued for their personality or their intelligence. If they ever accept that sort of scenario and become comfortable with it then they are changed by it and will conform to how those types of girls behave. Those are my observations, anyway. Exceptions exist, but I'd imagine that it's more due to the environment that the girl is in.
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2008-11-28 at 17:55. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 2008-11-27, 13:30   Link #1020
Segata
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
A few are even more bitchy that the one Edgewalker is talking about but hey I agree with you nevertheless cos I know what you mean and so I can confirm it.
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