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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-12-01, 04:27   Link #681
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Exactly! He chose himself, this is the very original part of the show... and the reason why I hate all those mentions of his death as some 'punishment/redemption'.
Then one can go totally tl;dr and give all the detail of the psycological profile for ZR Lelouch that suits his vision of the character better, but the fact that he chose for himself is the real core of the message.

Light Yagami's last words were, if I remember correctly, "Shit."
Was it a punishment? I don't think something you choose yourself is a punishment

I see it as atonement for all the people he killed, for all the people he wrong, the brainwashed soldiers, the soldiers he had kill themselves, the JLF, the innocent people he had killed, the people he killed in revenge, Euphemia, Shirley, and Rolo.

While he didn't mean to kill those three his actions did kill those three through stupidity.

It's the belief that he was wrong on a lot of things that seperates him from Light "I am a god" Yagami whose end is rightfully pathetic.
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Old 2008-12-01, 04:37   Link #682
Spring_sakura111
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Light is nothing like Lelouch. Our Lulu could easily kill him.
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Old 2008-12-01, 04:55   Link #683
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
Light is nothing like Lelouch. Our Lulu could easily kill him.
Lelouch is a byronic/tragic hero, he tries to do good, but generally causes a lot of harm because of his numerous flaws (arrogance, anger, the occasional bouts of massive stupidity)

Light is a villain protaganist who thinks his a god, and his end is the best scene in all of Death Note.
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Old 2008-12-01, 04:59   Link #684
Levy
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don't tempt me to the tl;dr XD

I basically think that what drives Lelouch in the end is the realization that all he had done has been abusing something he has being given - not by fate, by his father via CC to fit in his plan - without understanding the full entity of what he was doing.
His will has always been weak untill this realization, and he has been used just as much as he had used everyone else for his purposes. He had done a lot of horrible things, and surely felts the responsability for Euphie, Shirley - and also Nunnaly at that time.
So he decided to push to the extreme what he had done, because he chose to be free from being used, free from his guilt, free from the remains of his own morals, those same morals that normally limit human beings. He refused to be a victim of his errors, but push the error to the extreme in an extreme expression of his own will that made possible what is the final outcome of his plan: restart the world.

And all he had done as emperor is wrong, still wrong in the means, and I'm persuaded he knew all the time, but he did still because he realized that he has the power of changing the world, imposing his will upon the events that had made him lost everything, so that the same circle of guilt and hatred could be break.

Abusing Geass, he had stepped over the dignity of people, but with this experience he realized that being used as a tool, or an excuse, is the worst thing a human being could experienced. That's why I don't buy the moral that the 'ingrates' survived the end of the 'good one' - it's for people like the one that survived he had done all of this.

The last 'geass' he casted, is what he said to Suzaku, and Suzaku litterally answered "I accept this Geass"

That's why I feel that, with all his downs, Code Geass has a great moral in the end, putting free will as the most important value.
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Old 2008-12-01, 05:21   Link #685
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
don't tempt me to the tl;dr XD

I basically think that what drives Lelouch in the end is the realization that all he had done has been abusing something he has being given - not by fate, by his father via CC to fit in his plan - without understanding the full entity of what he was doing.
His will has always been weak untill this realization, and he has been used just as much as he had used everyone else for his purposes. He had done a lot of horrible things, and surely felts the responsability for Euphie, Shirley - and also Nunnaly at that time.
So he decided to push to the extreme what he had done, because he chose to be free from being used, free from his guilt, free from the remains of his own morals, those same morals that normally limit human beings. He refused to be a victim of his errors, but push the error to the extreme in an extreme expression of his own will that made possible what is the final outcome of his plan: restart the world.

And all he had done as emperor is wrong, still wrong in the means, and I'm persuaded he knew all the time, but he did still because he realized that he has the power of changing the world, imposing his will upon the events that had made him lost everything, so that the same circle of guilt and hatred could be break.

Abusing Geass, he had stepped over the dignity of people, but with this experience he realized that being used as a tool, or an excuse, is the worst thing a human being could experienced. That's why I don't buy the moral that the 'ingrates' survived the end of the 'good one' - it's for people like the one that survived he had done all of this.

The last 'geass' he casted, is what he said to Suzaku, and Suzaku litterally answered "I accept this Geass"

That's why I feel that, with all his downs, Code Geass has a great moral in the end, putting free will as the most important value.
Charles couldn't possbily predict that Lelouch would find C.C. Lelouch getting Geass was something Charles couldn't plan for, and he sure as hell couldn't plan for the type of geass Lelouch got.

Charles may be smart but he can't predict the future.

Also if the moral was free will being the most important value than its broken

The people didn't choose peace, Lelouch using his own will forced it on them by tricking them. There is peace, but the peace is based on a lie, and the people including the entire Britannia army, and the Black Knights where simply Lelouch's plan.

If they where going for peace by free will than the ending would be more like the ending in Endless Waltz when the people stand up to the Barton Foundation, and start stating that they don't want war.

If they where going for free will at all cost than peace shouldn't be made, unless its a group decision like it was in Gundam Wing.

Also in both interviews and within the story itself its stated that Lelouch died for the price of using geass, that shows morality.
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Old 2008-12-01, 05:28   Link #686
Spring_sakura111
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Charles couldn't possbily predict that Lelouch would find C.C. Lelouch getting Geass was something Charles couldn't plan for, and he sure as hell couldn't plan for the type of geass Lelouch got.

Charles may be smart but he can't predict the future.

.
Actually. It was by chance. Marianne was with Anya. Let's assume that Lelouch's mom takes over Anya several times to keep in contact with Charles. Maybe Marianne ordered C.C. to babysit or have a contract with him since on episode one, when C.C. found Lulu , she said "I found you."
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Old 2008-12-01, 05:47   Link #687
Charred Knight
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Actually. It was by chance. Marianne was with Anya. Let's assume that Lelouch's mom takes over Anya several times to keep in contact with Charles. Maybe Marianne ordered C.C. to babysit or have a contract with him since on episode one, when C.C. found Lulu , she said "I found you."
The point was that their is no way that Charles plan was for Lelouch to find a bomb, Lelouch to agree to a contract with a mysterious person while people tried to kill him, for the Britannians to be genre blind morons, for Lelouch to have the power to brainwash people, to raise an army, and to defeat several people outside his plan like Mao, Cornelia, and Suzaku, and then finally agree to join him.

That's way too complicated, and takes in way too many outside factors

Charles plan was most likely for Lelouch to join him that's all. Charles was suceeding without Lelouch's help so I don't see why the hell he would need some crazy plan involving Lelouch to work.
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Old 2008-12-01, 06:05   Link #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Charles couldn't possbily predict that Lelouch would find C.C. Lelouch getting Geass was something Charles couldn't plan for, and he sure as hell couldn't plan for the type of geass Lelouch got.

Charles may be smart but he can't predict the future.
Of course but the reason why Lelouch got the Geass is not a generic fate, is somehow a consequence of his father's plan. Or at least that's what it seems from ep.21, even if CC's contribution to that part is still, at least to me, blurry.

Quote:
Also in both interviews and within the story itself its stated that Lelouch died for the price of using geass, that shows morality.
But what is Lelouch's Geass if not the ultimate denial of free will?

People do crave for their freedom, but they have limits - grudge, principles, prejudices, arrogance, sense of betrayal, their affects and belongings - they are not able to overcome, and they keep on hurting each other, oppressing each other. It's frequently said that you do not realize how precious is something untill you lose it - Lelouch's absolute tyranny and his final abuse of Geass was a mean to make the world realize how precious freedom is, and that cohesistence was the only real way to say 'Never again'.

Paradoxal as it is in the execution of the plan, it's the right of everyone to be free Lelouch's been fighting for, this is the message this story left to me. To me at least.


(gotta rewatch Endless Waltz.. I don't remember a damn thing about it! )
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Old 2008-12-01, 06:15   Link #689
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Of course but the reason why Lelouch got the Geass is not a generic fate, is somehow a consequence of his father's plan. Or at least that's what it seems from ep.21, even if CC's contribution to that part is still, at least to me, blurry.



But what is Lelouch's Geass if not the ultimate denial of free will?

People do crave for their freedom, but they have limits - grudge, principles, prejudices, arrogance, sense of betrayal, their affects and belongings - they are not able to overcome, and they keep on hurting each other, oppressing each other. It's frequently said that you do not realize how precious is something untill you lose it - Lelouch's absolute tyranny and his final abuse of Geass was a mean to make the world realize how precious freedom is, and that cohesistence was the only real way to say 'Never again'.

Paradoxal as it is in the execution of the plan, it's the right of everyone to be free Lelouch's been fighting for, this is the message this story left to me. To me at least.


(gotta rewatch Endless Waltz.. I don't remember a damn thing about it! )
Endless Waltz has a scene where people show up and tell the people that they don't want any war so get out of here. Its a clear expression that people like the Barton Foundation are unwanted and uneeded. You should get the movie version as it includes a scene where Dorothy insults a guy a lot, and then gets them

I think the main problem is that Lelouch's tyranny is only informed, we never see how opressed the people are so the fact that free will is taken world wide is never seen. Evil Emperor Lelouch is a far better ruler than Charles or Schneizel would be.

Also since everything was according to Lelouch's plan than the new world is created not by free will but by lies.
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Old 2008-12-01, 06:33   Link #690
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What I believe, is it that his death was not his punishment. It was part of it. But his main punishment was that he wouldn't get to finally live a happy life. Think about it, If Lelouch had gone back and made everything right and didn't continue with the ZR, he could have had a happy life with Nunnally (He had changed his plan multiple times, after he discovered Nunnally was alive, he was planning to go save her and keep living, but he made his final decision when he saw Nunnally was strong enough to live by her own will/thoughts and didn't need Lelouch to protect her and care for her anymore) He could of had a lover (C.C. or Kallen, people will debate about that) He would have his bestfriend back. He would finally have a happy life.
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Old 2008-12-01, 06:55   Link #691
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I think the main problem is that Lelouch's tyranny is only informed, we never see how opressed the people are so the fact that free will is taken world wide is never seen. Evil Emperor Lelouch is a far better ruler than Charles or Schneizel would be.
On this, you are perfectly right. And while the fangirl is happy that all the two months gap is skipped in the last part of last episode because she'd have hardly resisted one more week of tension at that point of the show, the intelligent viewer says "crap, this is rushed."


Quote:
Also since everything was according to Lelouch's plan than the new world is created not by free will but by lies.
Here lies the paradox, that is one of the few and very original features of the show. Everything remains a mystery to history, but we can see, as the viewer, that lies are just in the means. What I said about free will is more addressed to the intentions that lead people's actions.


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He was planning to go save her and keep living, but he made his final decision when he saw Nunnally was strong enough to live by her own will
I think it was more the realization that Nunnaly had in mind something quite similar to ZR when she decide to dirt her hands helping Schneizel that pushed him forward. Nunnally has always been Lelouch's crucial weakness, but it was more his 'idea' of Nunnaly than Nunnaly herself - I loved how in the end, the real Nunnaly yells to him "when did I asked you that!?"
When he realizes that Nunnaly had thoughts similar to his owns, he felt in a way even more legitimate in carring on with his plan, and used his Geass - for the last time in the show, if I'm not wrong - on her to secure his victory.

Last edited by Levy; 2008-12-01 at 07:09. Reason: Nunnaly character development happened in two episodes but it was not too bad :3
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:13   Link #692
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On this, you are perfectly right. And while the fangirl is happy that all the two months gap is skipped in the last part of last episode because she'd have hardly resisted one more week of tension at that point of the show, the intelligent viewer says "crap, this is rushed."
I beg to differ.
"The average fangirl is happy..."
Because I certainly wasn't. ;P


Quote:
I think it was more the realization that Nunnaly had in mind something quite similar to ZR when she decide to dirt her hands helping Schneizel that pushed him forward. Nunnally has always been Lelouch's crucial weakness, but it was more his 'idea' of Nunnaly than Nunnaly herself - I loved how in the end, the real Nunnaly yells to him "when did I asked you that!?"
When he realizes that Nunnaly had thoughts similar to his owns, he felt in a way even more legitimate in carring on with his plan, and used his Geass - for the last time in the show, if I'm not wrong - on her to secure his victory.
I already told you how much I love you, didn't I? xD
*totally agrees with that*
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:17   Link #693
Levy
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I beg to differ.
"The average fangirl is happy..."
Because I certainly wasn't. ;P
failed to specify, _my_ inner fangirl was relieved, while _my_ inner intelligent viewer was more or less "... :/ ...rushed epilogue *is* rushed..." XD
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:20   Link #694
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I beg to differ.
"The average fangirl is happy..."
Because I certainly wasn't. ;P
Well, the Suzaku fangirls were happy. The Lulu fangirls weren't, which Lulu fangirls make up the majority. I was depressed yet I found the ending beautifully satisfying.
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:21   Link #695
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failed to specify, _my_ inner fangirl was relieved, while _my_ inner intelligent viewer was more or less "... :/ ...rushed epilogue *is* rushed..." XD
Ahhh, that makes sense. xD
Now I'd love you even more, but I'm not sure that's even possible... oh well.
I can always try!
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:21   Link #696
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I already told you how much I love you, didn't I? xD
*totally agrees with that*
*joins you in holy agreeing with glorious Levy*

Aaaaand I loved the final episode...but I still want side material about the two months timeskip. xD;
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Old 2008-12-01, 15:26   Link #697
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Well, the Suzaku fangirls were happy. The Lulu fangirls weren't, which Lulu fangirls make up the majority. I was depressed yet I found the ending beautifully satisfying.
Hm... I fangirl both, but even though I loved the ending, I wasn't completely satisfied.
Not even with the Suzaku part, because I kind of saw it coming and wanted to see him interact with Lelouch some more before he stabbed him.


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*joins you in holy agreeing with glorious Levy*

Aaaaand I loved the final episode...but I still want side material about the two months timeskip. xD;
Agreed. xD
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Old 2008-12-02, 06:54   Link #698
Spring_sakura111
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I've been wondering..
Why do people hate Suzaku? Especially during Season one?
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Old 2008-12-02, 06:56   Link #699
Levy
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Aaaaand I loved the final episode...but I still want side material about the two months timeskip. xD;
I'd love to know the reason of the to month's skip - that could be,"wait a decent time to persuade the world I'm really evil"- but moreover, the reason for the one month skip in ep.21. That, I've never understood why ?_?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
I've been wondering..
Why do people hate Suzaku? Especially during Season one?
Idk, I've always like him... but most of the opinions I've heard on the matter can be summarizzed in
a) he is not Lelouch
b) he's obstaculating Lelouch
c) the rebel is always the most appealing one
d) Suzaku's attempa to change things from the inside was percieved as hypocrisy.

Last edited by Levy; 2008-12-02 at 08:20. Reason: note to self: learn how to spell, moron! -.-;
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Old 2008-12-02, 06:58   Link #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
I've been wondering..
Why do people hate Suzaku? Especially during Season one?
in season 1 its becouse he's a kira yamato clone (which pisses off some people)
some like it some dont (i never really disliked him in season 1)

season 2 is self evident
he starts the season by selling out lelouch for power and position
and he gets pleny of dog kicking moments later on in the season
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