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Old 2004-05-19, 10:30   Link #21
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LK_LoA
You missed the hyprocrisy of an ecchi anime where the female protagonist says, "Ecchi na no wa ikenai to omoimasu."
The irony was certainly not lost on me. There's certainly no question that the fanservice in Mahoromatic is meant as comedic relief; the problem, I guess, was that at times it crossed the line from being funny to just being over-the-top and (arguably) unnecessary. It's too bad, though, because the rest of the show seems quite good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterx
there is no western or for that matter any other culture that loves showing bouncing boobs and girls underwear. Fanservice is a japanese thing, there are no equivalents around here.
Well, I'm not so sure about this... last time I tuned into MTV, there was a lot of sexually suggestive material. It's not presented in the same way at all, obviously, but I consider it just as suggestive as the fanservice in anime, if not moreso. I'm not trying to say it's either right or wrong, but the Japanese culture isn't the only one who loves showing sexually suggestive material in the media...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterx
I don't mind fanservice, it doesn't do anything for me. The last time I remember looking at girls panties being a big deal was in kindergarten.
That is true enough. Fanservice in anime doesn't really phase me that much - it's only when it goes over the top that I sort of roll my eyes and wonder why they had to throw that in there. As you say, though, it doesn't do anything for me either.


And Secca, that shot is just... disturbing...
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Old 2004-05-19, 10:46   Link #22
Greenē
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secca
Spoiler for this is what I call excessive fanservice:
Slippery when wet perhaps?

That would be the floor btw...
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Old 2004-05-19, 11:19   Link #23
Mr_Paper
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Originally Posted by Greenē
Slippery when wet perhaps?

That would be the floor btw...
More likely is that they slipped on all those bullet casings on the ground. Of course that doesn't justify the stupid amounts of fanservice in the scene.

The same effect could have been achieved by just showing them laying on the floor or leaning against the walls. There is no need to have them all laying on the floor in the positions that they were in. Project Aika is another good example of excessive and unwarrented fanservice.
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Old 2004-05-19, 11:21   Link #24
hobobaggins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
More likely is that they slipped on all those bullet casings on the ground. Of course that doesn't justify the stupid amounts of fanservice in the scene.

The same effect could have been achieved by just showing them laying on the floor or leaning against the walls. There is no need to have them all laying on the floor in the positions that they were in. Project Aika is another good example of excessive and unwarrented fanservice.
same with project aiko. that was very very unwanted (or does memory server me incorrectly, and we speak of the same thing?)

I am all for Fanservice!... as long it is not in replacement for the plot.

Quote:
Pornography is what an individual deems him/herself to define as pornography.
so yeah. i consider fanservice actually nudity/pointless scenes with nothing but bathing suits...
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Old 2004-05-19, 11:28   Link #25
Mr_Paper
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Originally Posted by hobobaggins
or does memory server me incorrectly, and we speak of the same thing?
I think we mean the same series. I can never remember if it's Aiko or Aika off the top of my head.
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Old 2004-05-19, 13:53   Link #26
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
That is true enough. Fanservice in anime doesn't really phase me that much - it's only when it goes over the top that I sort of roll my eyes and wonder why they had to throw that in there. As you say, though, it doesn't do anything for me either.
Perhaps this is the part that I don't seem to understand - the thought of actually getting the thought "why they had to throw that in there."

Yes, fanservice does exist, and in ever increasing ACs (action cuts) everytime. But then, your quote actually made me wonder why we never kick our mindset to question the animators choice in placing that scene. To us, the fanservice ACs such as "panty shots," "guy accidentally going into a bath where the girl is taking a shower," etc. etc. are more of a cliche. To us, it is nothing more than what usually happens next: a girl screaming "kya~!! XXX-san/kun no ecchi~~~!!"

Let me give you an example:

Every child in Japan (at least in the past thirty years) grows up watching "Doraemon." It's a pasttime, a national icon of an anime up there along with "Sazae-san." In about one in ten episodes, there is always a scene where the main character, Nobita-kun "accidentally" uses Doraemon's dokodemo-door and ends up in Shizuka-chan's bathroom. Then there are scenes where there is a panchila shot of Shizuka-chan when the wind blows.

Both the current anime viewers and the animators themselves were watching "Doraemon" as a child. The next generation of children are also watching "Doraemon" as I speak. What you have here is a cliche. It's a recurring gag that stems from what we thought to be amusing and funny as a child. If a person who hasn't grown up in Japanese society, it will be difficult to grasp the idea of this and be viewed as rather pointless.

A very bad analogy in American cartoon terms would be something like seeing a scene where an anvil drops on top of someone's head and the image of Wile E. Coyote pops into your head. I personally think this is pointless as well, but then again, I never lived in America. But in a sense, wouldn't such scenes in your country be considered a sort of "fan-service" as well?


But then, we come back and start seeing a bunch of anime with tons of fanservice nowadays. It comes to a point that it is not amusing anymore, but to a feeling of desensitization.
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Old 2004-05-19, 14:54   Link #27
jennwenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Every child in Japan (at least in the past thirty years) grows up watching "Doraemon." It's a pasttime, a national icon of an anime up there along with "Sazae-san." In about one in ten episodes, there is always a scene where the main character, Nobita-kun "accidentally" uses Doraemon's dokodemo-door and ends up in Shizuka-chan's bathroom. Then there are scenes where there is a panchila shot of Shizuka-chan when the wind blows.

Both the current anime viewers and the animators themselves were watching "Doraemon" as a child. The next generation of children are also watching "Doraemon" as I speak. What you have here is a cliche. It's a recurring gag that stems from what we thought to be amusing and funny as a child. If a person who hasn't grown up in Japanese society, it will be difficult to grasp the idea of this and be viewed as rather pointless.

A very bad analogy in American cartoon terms would be something like seeing a scene where an anvil drops on top of someone's head and the image of Wile E. Coyote pops into your head. I personally think this is pointless as well, but then again, I never lived in America. But in a sense, wouldn't such scenes in your country be considered a sort of "fan-service" as well?
I think that is a pretty good analogy, I've never thought of it that way. The Wile E. Coyote gags are easily recognizable and they are like a trademark aspect of American animation. There was a time when I thought it was funny, but now I tend to groan. That's how I feel about fanservice now too.


More and more anime being broadcast on TV feature sex scenes or masturbation, KimiNozo for example comes to mind. Sure they are not "explicit" and some would call the scenes "tasteful" but it still sounds softcore to me...

I usually judge whether a series has "excessive" fanservice on a case by case basis. Sometimes I think its hilarious when the anime makes fun of excessive fanservice, like in Wandaba Style or Puni Puni Poemi. Even Green Green was funny at times for me, like the fangirl who dreams of bishounen and only gets ugly, horny teenage nerds. Only "at times" though.

As for sexuality being broadcast on US TV, I think its also become more and more liberal. I already feel uncomfortable watching MTV if my parents are in the room. And strangely, they'll show sex scenes on daytime soap operas but no nipples or genitals.

I wouldn't worry about the degredation of anime though. The increased fanservice is mostly visible in the same genres they always existed in: ecchi, comedy, bishoujo, and boy's romance shows. I don't think its infecting anime as a whole, we're just seeing more offerings from the same genres that always featured fanservice.
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Old 2004-05-19, 17:24   Link #28
Bracken33
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"Pornography is what an individual deems him/herself to define as pornography."

Yes, it never came to my mind that showing panty shots or boobs is pornography.
We all come from different cultures and were raised differently. Which makes totally different individuals.

"I don't mind if just one panty shot or two, the one I mind is those out of place or excessive amount."

This is also what annoys me. The story suffers with to much fanservice.
I donīt mind going nude to an onsen or having sex, but it must fit into the plot.

I liked the sex in KGNE.
Ok, it was not absolutely necessary, but for me it was well placed.

Sometimes I even highly enjoy fanservice.
Ryoko in an onsen for example. That is something I wouldnīt mind to do myself with a beer (and with maybe Ryoko) .

Last edited by Bracken33; 2004-05-19 at 17:48.
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Old 2004-05-19, 19:35   Link #29
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Perhaps this is the part that I don't seem to understand - the thought of actually getting the thought "why they had to throw that in there."
I guess it is because when it happens too often in a show, or when it is quite explicit, it makes me embarassed for some reason. The examples you mentioned (panty shots, accidentally walking into a bath when a girl's there, etc.) don't bother me - I also see them as cliche, and I still laugh at them. As you say, it's like the anvil - that doesn't bother me at all, and it's comedy. But in some of the scenes in Mahoromatic, for example, we see the teacher's sexual fantasies portrayed... sure, they don't show that much, but it's enough to make me embarrassed. You don't feel like you should watch it in public. That's what I mean by "why did they have to throw that in there". It's not the cliches, though, that bug me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
But then, we come back and start seeing a bunch of anime with tons of fanservice nowadays. It comes to a point that it is not amusing anymore, but to a feeling of desensitization.
Yeah, that is sort of what I was getting at. Some of the shows are getting to have so much fanservice, or such extreme fanservice, that it overshadows the plot. On the one hand, I feel desensitized to it all (it doesn't really seem so bad anymore), but on the other hand it does make me wonder just how much is comedy, and how much is just plain perverse. As jennwenn said, though, it's not as if the whole anime industry is affected - it's really just the same genres that have always had fanservice that are having more and more.
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Old 2004-05-19, 20:01   Link #30
Guts
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Quote:
in Mahoromatic, for example, we see the teacher's sexual fantasies portrayed... sure, they don't show that much, but it's enough to make me embarrassed. You don't feel like you should watch it in public.
There are some ecchi scenes in anime that make me cringe to.

Last edited by Guts; 2004-05-19 at 20:29.
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Old 2004-05-20, 00:12   Link #31
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Hmmm... in our country partial nudity is considered soft porn...
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Old 2004-05-20, 00:15   Link #32
Kakashi-Sharingan
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Hentai: 20% - 55% heavy skin amounts for the series or episode. Hard core acts must be below 20% for the series or episode.
This is more like 50 to 70 percent
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Old 2004-05-20, 00:16   Link #33
boneyjellyfish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Burn
Hmmm... in our country partial nudity is considered soft porn...
If you're talking about America, then we have a rather silly rating for softcore pornography. Softcore porn is rated "R" is America, the same as movies that have nothing offensive in them other than curse words. Vaguest. Rating. EVER.
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Old 2004-05-20, 00:20   Link #34
srb
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In my opinion, Mahoromatic is pretty tame actually. Sure, you see quite a lot of breasts, but so what? It's natural and the only difference from a male chest is that it's bigger (not always, if a guy is extremely buff or obese) and that it's used to feed babies. There are the occasional panty shots in Mahoromatic, but they often serve a purpose, like in the Dark Martial Arts-tournament where the girls distract Hamaji and K-what'shisname - I almost laughed my ass off at that one.

I must be weird since I have no problems at all with nudity, male or female, but skimpiness and panty shots and such are things I disagree with.
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Old 2004-05-20, 01:32   Link #35
Slade xTekno
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Quote:
in Mahoromatic, for example, we see the teacher's sexual fantasies portrayed... sure, they don't show that much, but it's enough to make me embarrassed. You don't feel like you should watch it in public.
No public anime showing goes w/out heckling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Every child in Japan (at least in the past thirty years) grows up watching "Doraemon." It's a pasttime, a national icon of an anime up there along with "Sazae-san." In about one in ten episodes, there is always a scene where the main character, Nobita-kun "accidentally" uses Doraemon's dokodemo-door and ends up in Shizuka-chan's bathroom. Then there are scenes where there is a panchila shot of Shizuka-chan when the wind blows.

Both the current anime viewers and the animators themselves were watching "Doraemon" as a child. The next generation of children are also watching "Doraemon" as I speak. What you have here is a cliche. It's a recurring gag that stems from what we thought to be amusing and funny as a child. If a person who hasn't grown up in Japanese society, it will be difficult to grasp the idea of this and be viewed as rather pointless.

A very bad analogy in American cartoon terms would be something like seeing a scene where an anvil drops on top of someone's head and the image of Wile E. Coyote pops into your head. I personally think this is pointless as well, but then again, I never lived in America. But in a sense, wouldn't such scenes in your country be considered a sort of "fan-service" as well?
A valid argument. So that's why fanservice is so prevalent in Japanese animation...
I hate the anvil gag, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyjellyfish
If you're talking about America, then we have a rather silly rating for softcore pornography. Softcore porn is rated "R" is America, the same as movies that have nothing offensive in them other than curse words. Vaguest. Rating. EVER.
Agreed. The "R" rating is used so broadly it gets confusing. Some deserve it, but America, in its attempts to prevent the corruption of its innocent youth [Lol. See MTV], has used it almost a a censor.
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Old 2004-05-20, 02:25   Link #36
hunterx
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I happen to like the american system. Keep the public tv clean I guess. I you want to whack off at porn, find your own little corner on the internet and do it. There's no need for it on public tv
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Old 2004-05-20, 03:25   Link #37
Yuun
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I never thought of this ecchi scene as an soft porn...
Ok, basically i'm a christian with a hard beliefs and i am baptist with the faith of God Lord Jesus and not to mention...i never seen a naked female human before...

Ahem... now after the introduction... i would like to stated this... i've watch alots of damn anime with Ecchi + Hentai scene that is too much for me to remembered.

Let me get this straight, Anime is drawn by human using their imaginations and is afterall an artwork...is not real and i must comen that those art are very beautiful.

While a soft porn include real human acters and actress which expose their sex parts which i think is absolute a disgrace. i would never watch porn movies that include real human in it as i'll be breaking my own taboo and to makes matter worst is a sin towards this human comunity.

But as a perfect born male with human desire, is hard for a guy to resist female temptations but i manage to get off it so far... anyway watching this kind of anime is somehow manage to release the beast in me without hurting or breaking any taboo as it doesn't concern humanity.

So conclusion, Anime is an ART!!! while naked woman can be an ART if it is drawn into a picture but IF it is real life actions then is a DISGRACE!!!

AMEN...
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Old 2004-05-20, 10:12   Link #38
Gorksnip
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Without fanservice, anime is just like any other animation, you know what I'm saying, bra?
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Old 2004-05-20, 10:30   Link #39
Greenē
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Then in this case, wouldn't the real life actions of naked anime male & female characters be the art of God?
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Old 2004-05-20, 10:54   Link #40
relentlessflame
 
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Yuun, it's quite scary actually... you and I are in almost exactly the same boat. But, a little while ago, I came to the realization that what I was mostly trying to do was rationalize behaviour that I knew was questionable at best according to my stated moral standards.

Like you, the thought of watching porn with "real life" actors has never been appealing to me at all... I always thought of it as a disgrace and, above all I guess, just plain disgusting. But, while I haven't watched much "hentai" anime, I was able to rationalize it more with the same argument you were using: it's not real, it's just art; no one is getting hurt. And while it is a comfort to my ethical side, it doesn't remove the moral problem. Depending on your personality, art (like anime) can be just as erotic as seeing the real thing. As you say, it's a way to deal with sexual frustration, but that doesn't remove the moral dillemma.
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